FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread II: Let's Speculate the Speculations

[Hyan]

I won't say anything about the current leveling system, but IMO what you just proposed sounds like shit.

[Gryffes]

meh

[Ramsey]

I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that you could level more than one class at once as a primary and secondary.

The system is just a variation (and a very good one at that) on the subjob system. You still need to level the class you want to use the skills from, but instead of being forced to pick one class as a sub for a few skills and ignore the rest, you get to pick what skills you want from ANY class you have leveled.

Seems like a much better system to me.

Leveling other classes in the alpha is stupidly easy. I'd expect them to change the system a bit since many people are giving feedback that they don't like the system, but as it stands now, leveling several jobs to max for their skills would still be much faster and easier than leveling 1 job to max in FFXI.

This is interesting, I actually had no idea you could equip the skills from ANY class you've leveled. Is this true? They did mention primary and secondary skills at some point, or maybe I really hallucinated that entire thing.

I did notice that when playing as Lancer and equipping Conjurer abilities, I then moused over other skills I had trained, and those boxes were empty. Not the usual attempting to equip them and they failed to equip, or anything like that, they just literally didn't appear.

So I was under the impression you were limited in your choices to pulling skills from two classes, if it is any class, that is indeed interesting. Also you are correct that seeing as you have a physical level, it's not nearly as grueling to level your other classes, but still seems like you'll have to do a lot of work to assemble the abilities you want to use, and it'll require you change play styles very frequently.

I guess then I'm curious if all abilities are affected by skill potency. What I mean by that is, if it turns out there's a Lv32 Gladiator skill that's useful for my Lancer, but nothing after that, and I level my Gladiator to 32, is that ability going to be useless to me as a Lv50 Lancer because its based off of my Gladiator skill, or will it be based only off of stats and equipment?

You do realize this is exactly how FFXI was, right?

However, that does seem weird that polearm skill went up when you cast a spell... I'm sure that'll be fixed.

Yes, I've played for 7 years, in fact that's exactly what I said. I said I was concerned because if that was the case (the constantly switching back and forth) then it's just a glorified subjob system that is uncapped.

I won't say anything about the current leveling system, but IMO what you just proposed sounds like shit.

I'm not passing judgement either until retail version, I was just expressing my concern and hoping to get feedback. I wasn't "proposing a system," I'm not saying Square-Enix "needs" to "do my idea" or anything moronic like that.

But I don't really understand why dual-classing sounds like shit to you, to be honest. The amount of variety it would open up would be really interesting, and set the game apart. We wouldn't all be cookie-cutters, which it seems is what is going to happen again. If you're a "Gladiator" you level X Y and Z to levels A B and C to unlock all of the cookie cutter moves that are going to make you #1 tank (or whatever role you want.)

On the other hand a dual-class system, would mean you might see someone with a sword and board, but their play style would vary wildly based on what other class they were. Many of Final Fantasies past characters were an interesting mixture of various jobs from the more rigid job system type games. Examples like Rosa who was a White Mage with a bow and arrow for instance.

With this system, it seems like your role is defined by your primary weapon, and any sort of altercations you inflict on that, by equipping other abilities, can only get you so far. Similar to how a Ranger/White Mage in Final Fantasy XI could never really be a healer. That being said, because MP is universal, and based on character level, we'll still have to wait and see, but it definitely seems that this system is more limited.

If that is your cup of tea, I completely respect that, and I blame myself for misinterpreting what they meant originally by your secondary skills not being limited by your primary skill. I would just love to see more variety in how people play the game.

[Hyan]

If that is your cup of tea, I completely respect that, and I blame myself for misinterpreting what they meant originally by your secondary skills not being limited by your primary skill. I would just love to see more variety in how people play the game.

The only thing you are missing here is that concept is not the same as reality. Cookie cutter builds will exist with your system. It will exist in the current system. We can all look at the systems with rainbow glasses but in practice things will not be so rosy as you think.

I don't like your system because it is essentially a step down from XIV's simply because you can only equip skills from 2 classes at time, and not all of them. I don't think that's an improvement at all.

Your system would also be a complete bitch to balance. There's just too many variables. It would be like subjob system all over again.

[Loaar]

@ Ramsey: I have PUG, Lancer and Mara at level 20, Glad at 10ish, CON and Thaum at 8-10.

On my level 20 jobs, I can equip ANY skill from the other classes except the basic level 1 skills and a couple that are job specific, such as the MP refill skill on the mages.

I can pick 9 PUG skills, 3 Lancer skills, 3 Mara skills, 2 glad skills, 2 CON and 1 Thaum skill all at once if I so chose.

There doesn't appear to be any difference in potency from one class to the next within the same discipline, i.e. PUG skills used on a marauder are more or less the same.

Using skills between disciplines isn't as effective because gear choices are limited.

For example, as a Thaum you can use a shield, and you can equip the Glad skill "phalanx", which allows you to counterattack when you block.

The skill works, but it usually misses because as a Thaum your weapon has magic accuracy on it instead of melee accuracy.

More gear choices in the retail version may allow you to do things like things by sacrificing some other stat?

[Ramsey]

The only thing you are missing here is that concept is not the same as reality. Cookie cutter builds will exist with your system. It will exist in the current system. We can all look at the systems with rainbow glasses but in practice things will not be so rosy as you think.

I don't like your system because it is essentially a step down from XIV's simply because you can only equip skills from 2 classes at time, and not all of them. I don't think that's an improvement at all.

Your system would also be a complete bitch to balance. There's just too many variables. It would be like subjob system all over again.

I'm actually kind of curious how you see a dual-classing system more like a subjob system. In a dual-class system, you don't need to incessantly switch back and forth between the classes you're leveling. If you choose to play a Conjurer/Archer wearing robes and wielding a bow, you can level like that all the way up, bringing both skills with you.

So from a leveling respect, it's very unlike a subjob system, it's more streamlined, and allows you to play exclusively in the role you want to play.

On the other hand, with the current system, you may have to level 4-6 different classes just to get the cookie cutter build that you need to satisfy the min/maxers.


True, a dual class system still suffers from cookie cutters, but the amount of variety such a system could display would be greatly expanded. Unlike FFXI or the current system in XIV, your role wouldn't be exclusively determined by your main weapon, with secondary abilities being chosen essentially if they support your role, and hybrid abilities likely only being useful for soloing or small groups.

Essentially what I mean by that is, your role would be decided by the two skills you chose, it'd be a hybridization of the two.

Of course, it's possible that this intense hybridization could still show itself through the more open system, creating a scenario where you could see two people wielding the same weapon type, and it turns out they play very differently.

And if it turns out that in the end, there's a lot of options, and even in end game events, we're not set into a specific role by our main weapon, I'll be very happy. It's not like I'm going to not play the game, or not enjoy the game given the current system. I am just worried that the amount of variety is actually going to be more limited, and that the system will only "appear" more open, than a system like dual-classing.

More gear choices in the retail version may allow you to do things like things by sacrificing some other stat?

Thank you very much for the informative response, that gives me a lot of interesting information. I really wasn't trying to troll or complain, I was just trying to find out more information, I had developed an obviously incorrect notion, which isn't hard to believe, considering a lot of the information they give out is highly sugar, with little nutritional... err that is it's very high "Flavor" info with little "fact."

I'm hoping this too, hybrid style gear, allowing essentially what I just talked about. I just really want to see a lot of breadth and depth to the variety of play styles available.

[Hyan]

I'm talking about balance.

You will not be playing CON/ARC. You'll be playing the most efficient build which may be CON/GLAD, CON/LNC, or most likely CON/THM. Min/maxing doesn't go anywhere. But unlike now, you have only two classes to take skills and spells from. There's really no more variety than before, less even.

It's cool that you have this great idea but in practice it's not going to work as well as you think. The current system is not really inferior to yours, which is why I don't see any reason for SE to start changing anything at this point because of that.

It's a cool concept, either way.

[Loaar]

I'm talking about balance.

You will not be playing CON/ARC. You'll be playing the most efficient build which may be CON/GLAD, CON/LNC, or most likely CON/THM.

This is an exteremely simplified way of looking at it.

I'd say, to be more accuracte, a min/max char would be something like a Glad/PUG/Archer/Lancer/Marauder.

From what we know now, each class has 1 self heal and 1 "damage buff". Your min/max Glad, if he was soloing, might have all the self heals. If he was partying, he might have all the defensive + all the hate generating moves from the DoW classes.

A Glad using Rousing Provoke, Rampart and Obsess (Glad), with Mocking Provoke and Featherfoot (PUG), plus Defender and Bloodbath (Mara), plus Invigorate to ensure you always had TP when you need it (Lancer) would be a pretty awesome level 20 tank. I'm sure archer has a skill thats useful but I'm not familiar with it.

I currently use Chakra (PUG), Bloodbath (Mara), Speed Surge (Lancer) and between the 3 I can pretty much heal myself through anything that doesn't 1-2 shot me.

[Hyan]

I'm talking about Ramsey's dual class system, meonline.

[Zounder]

There was discussion about all of these a month or 2 ago, but no one could confirm if they would all be real classes or not. People datamined a lot of class names from FFXI that never were playable, so it's hard to guess right now what we will have access to.

Aren't there some classes we haven't heard of yet on that list, even with the discussion a couple months ago, or am I just behind on the times? I know Fencer, Arcanist, etc. were data mined before, but some like Assassin and Flayer are new to me.

[Vitglance]

Thanks for the pictures meonline :3

This may sound silly. But seeing things like the Skull Eyepatch and the Oak Halfmask being the same in every respect but aesthetics makes me very happy.

[Kaylia]

The system is just a variation (and a very good one at that) on the subjob system. You still need to level the class you want to use the skills from, but instead of being forced to pick one class as a sub for a few skills and ignore the rest, you get to pick what skills you want from ANY class you have leveled.

I agree, but I'm worried we will have to level everything to make a specific class useful. Clearly, 20 level isn't so bad (with the current xp gain rate), but it could eventually becomme a pain in the ass if there is as many class as ffxi, and you need a little bit of everything to get the most out of your job for endgame.

[Hyan]

I agree, but I'm worried we will have to level everything to make a specific class useful. Clearly, 20 level isn't so bad (with the current xp gain rate), but it could eventually becomme a pain in the ass if there is as many class as ffxi, and you need a little bit of everything to get the most out of your job for endgame.

Hm, we obviously don't know but in the end at higher ranks skills may become more class-specific again or cost so many action points that they become highly situational (optional) as well.

Or we just won't get as many skills as at lower levels, so leveling them to around halfway would be enough to get most skills from that class. It could also be that higher tiers of the same skill can only be used by the main class.

Or it could be a pain in the ass if you need to have 6 classes at max rank to get most out of your main. We'll once again have to see what happens >_>

[Cayos]

Looks kind of cute.

Spoiler: show

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...i/FFXIV3-1.jpg

[Kaylia]

Yeah...love those rabbits..or w/e the fuck it is. I just wish they would be bigger than your characters.

[zephys]

did anyone else see this?

i.imgur.com/AStLh.png

paste in browser, i can't post urls

Where's that from?
Seems a bit out of nowhere.. and too good to be true :\

[Ramsey]

I'm talking about balance.

You will not be playing CON/ARC. You'll be playing the most efficient build which may be CON/GLAD, CON/LNC, or most likely CON/THM. Min/maxing doesn't go anywhere. But unlike now, you have only two classes to take skills and spells from. There's really no more variety than before, less even.

It's cool that you have this great idea but in practice it's not going to work as well as you think. The current system is not really inferior to yours, which is why I don't see any reason for SE to start changing anything at this point because of that.

It's a cool concept, either way.

It's absolutely true a dual class system would be more difficult to balance, if done correctly, I do believe it would have the potential to create more variety. So we're on the same page, and I agree they won't change it.

I'm actually somewhat interested in why you think playing Conjurer/Archer would be inferior, especially relative to Conjurer/Melee classes, it seems to me if anything a ranged class combined with a caster class would be more natural.

I think if enough emphasis were placed on the effectiveness of equipment, the game would balance itself out either way. Obviously, an MMO and balance in general is a lot of work for the design team to balance, regardless of what route you take. Whether it's dual class, free for all (in this case) or uniform single class.

My example for how equipment would balance things out is, something like let's assume Musketeer becomes a class.

A: On one hand you have Musketeer/Archer, this guy decides he wants to use a Firearm, and use Archer's natural abilities to assist him, increasing the variety and potency of his ranged attacks, and giving him ranged utility. He's going to use light weight discipline of war gear, which will give him bonuses that will increase his agility, ranged attk/acc etc, essentially stats that would enhance his ability to deal ranged damage.

B: On the other hand you have a Musketeer/Mystic(Or Conjurer, or whatever ends up being a strong support debuff/buff class) he chooses to also use a Firearm, and uses the magic classes' natural abilities to help provide support to the party, perhaps in the form of healing, or perhaps in the form of enfeebling. He needs to balance his wardrobe somewhere between leather (enhancing his ranged skills) and robes/cloth (enhancing his magic). Or he can choose to primarily outfit himself in one or the other, thusly sacrificing some of his potency in one of those two fields. He's not necessarily going to hit as consistently as guy A, but he'll be able to provide a strong support role in addition to his damage.

C: In a third case, you have the Musketeer/Gladiator, who has also chosen to wield a firearm. He chooses Gladiator because it has a variety of natural abilities that generate additional enmity, and allow him to defend his party members and enhance his own defense. He chooses to don mostly heavy armor, enhancing his defense considerably, while not greatly enhancing his ranged potency. He may not hit as consistently or deal as much damage as Guy A, but at least for less than raid-level encounters, where hopefully shields are nice but not necessary to tank, this plate wearing musketeer can serve as the groups tank.

Here you have three people who may outwardly appear to be Musketeers, wielding firearms, but their play style is very different. The balancing factor is of course equipment. And- the balancing act the design team has to play is, putting enough potency on the equipment, while not putting so much on, that you essentially become worthless when you choose equipment that is primarily intended for other purposes.

That being said, they had damned well better be doing that balancing act regardless of whether they allow you to mix and match armor sets with weapons, because I absolutely do not want to run into any situation where I have to completely change my outfit in order to be viable. In general, the less swapping of equipment necessary, the better.

Examples from FFXI, are for instance, maybe you're a Samurai, you have your normal gear on, none of it really affects your ranged abilities, you may as well be shooting your bow with a blindfold compared to someone who macro'd in their Kyuudogi and Seiryu's Kote and blah blah.



To conclude, I think my final thoughts on the armory system in general, I think what they currently have has the potential to have almost as much variety (of unique roles) as a dual-classing system, limiting armor choices to primary weapon just tends to pigeonhole you a bit more than I was hoping.

And--- regardless of which system you use, I sincerely hope that some of the load of potency has been taken away from equipment, allowing for a wider variety of play styles and equipment choices, and never creating the need to min/max macro your entire wardrobe in and out for every single spell you cast. (Yeah can you tell I played a red mage?)

The only time I think we should be making a decision about what equipment we're going to wear, is perhaps when we're preparing for our adventure back in town. I don't mind if I know I'm going to the frozen north, and I dress appropriately, perhaps akin to how you might change outfits for different areas, or to hunt different enemies in the Monster Hunter series.

But swapping out pieces of equipment for every minor change in our role, or change in what sort of abilities we want to use, or are using is something the design team will have to deal with, in any system.

Valve said it best... 'Designing games, is apparently, difficult.' I'm very aware of this, myself, but I think when variety is king, everyone wins.


Edit:

Hm, we obviously don't know but in the end at higher ranks skills may become more class-specific again or cost so many action points that they become highly situational (optional) as well.

Or we just won't get as many skills as at lower levels, so leveling them to around halfway would be enough to get most skills from that class. It could also be that higher tiers of the same skill can only be used by the main class.

Or it could be a pain in the ass if you need to have 6 classes at max rank to get most out of your main. We'll once again have to see what happens >_>

Actually, this, (far and away, more than the idea of tanking as a musketeer, or healing as an archer) more so than any one thing, is partially why I was hoping it would be a dual-class system. I think in general, a design where we have to play a class (and therefore, a play style) that we may not want to play, in order to get the most out of the class we do want to play, is a cruel and terrible mistress.

I think one of the things that to this day still frustrates me the most about FFXI, and will possibly (I can't say for sure because the game isn't out yet) frustrate me the most about XIV, is that I may really want to experience one style of play that I really enjoy (tanking perhaps?) but to do so in the most effective capacity, I have to force myself to grind through levels as a class I have zero interest in. (Lets say something slow, heavy melee DPS) I think a lot of people experienced this in XI, and may have even given up because of it.

I'm not saying it's going to ruin the game, and I think it seems like because it's separated into character and skill levels, going back and training that second skill will be easier, faster, more streamlined and less frustrating and time-consuming. But you're still forcing the player to adopt a play-style they don't enjoy for the duration.

[Hyan]

Gawd your posts get longer and longer, soon I'll need a TL;DR

Anyway, you have MUS/GLAD, GLAD/PUG, LNC/GLAD, CON/GLAD, etc. etc. all classes can make themselves into a tank class. Or DD.. or mage... or ranged tank.

And then you have to keep them at least somehow in balance.

All the combinations.. well, in theory if you could balance them the system would be good. In practice any dev would be overwhelmed and only few combinations would be viable. Maybe someone can make it happen one day, but for now at least I am content with the variety we have here.

But one more thing: While you're locked into "DD" role on some classes (although it seems that isn't exactly the case), there can be multiple ways for you to perform. A simple example would be, for example, if SE introduces a class with enspells and your pugilist takes said enspells and uses them to add to his damage. It might work like that, dunno yet.

I think in general, a design where we have to play a class (and therefore, a play style) that we may not want to play, in order to get the most out of the class we do want to play, is a cruel and terrible mistress.

Not really. You can just set your MAR's skills on PUG and play it like that if you don't like the way PUG itself plays. If you want to heal as MAR you'll heal as CON, which is what you'd want to do in the first place. So far, the only difference can be the weapon you're using, if you want.

[Ramsey]

Gawd your posts get longer and longer, soon I'll need a TL;DR

Anyway, you have MUS/GLAD, GLAD/PUG, LNC/GLAD, CON/GLAD, etc. etc. all classes can make themselves into a tank class. Or DD.. or mage... or ranged tank.

And then you have to keep them at least somehow in balance.

All the combinations.. well, in theory if you could balance them the system would be good. In practice any dev would be overwhelmed and only few combinations would be viable. Maybe someone can make it happen one day, but for now at least I am content with the variety we have here.

But one more thing: While you're locked into "DD" role on some classes (although it seems that isn't exactly the case), there can be multiple ways for you to perform. A simple example would be, for example, if SE introduces a class with enspells and your pugilist takes said enspells and uses them to add to his damage. It might work like that, dunno yet.

This will be a very short post, just for you! (Mostly because I plan to go to sleep now) Yes, it would be difficult, and I'm sure the design team is or at one point was feeling overwhelmed even with this current system.

I do this stuff for a living, so I have an excuse for over-thinking these things! I'm definitely excited about this game, and really happy that this system has more variety than a lot of systems out there, and I'm hoping it has even more variety than either of us expect!

[Soap]

Wrong thread.