FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread II: Let's Speculate the Speculations

[Kachi]

Can you imagine how much of a pain FFXI would be without sneak and invis? I don't want to kill a billion things on the way to my real goal, especially in endgame. There's just too many areas where having no sneak/invis would be impractical. Imagine sky, jormy, tiamat, fafnir, turtle, ToAU kings, various objectives through zones like Den of Rancor, etc. without sneak/invis. Granted, some can be trained like sky and fafnir, and some can be MGS'd like Tiamat, but still...

I hope sneak/invis stays. Especially considering the "trash" mobs on the way to most endgame events, or anywhere else, can kill a solo person on their way to meet their LS. Especially if they have to keep running into them the entire way there. They're not weak, trivial creatures.

Wouldn't be a problem if the "boss" mobs didn't generally have such shitty drop rates.

I never liked the invis/sneak aspect of the game. It was like a bitchass MGS. If you're going to have to sneak through an area for whatever reason, it should require you to actually do some sneaking.

Competing for claim is also an ass-weak version of PvP.

As to all the prior discussion about class balance: it's not impossible, but extremely difficult to have balanced classes with mob homogenization. If all mobs are basically the same, then yes, pinning down one class/configuration is generally feasible. But by making -opponents- characteristically more different, it can border on impractical to impossible to try to establish what is best. This is a fundamental quality of games that pit one thing versus another.

XI and many other popular MMOs that are in the comparison really don't offer enough diversity in the mechanics to demonstrate this. But just because it isn't done doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Lucavi]

^

Its like I said: give players enjoyable fights, even against trash mobs, and give players a reason to always kill those trash mobs - ones that they can't simply avoid or run from, anyway - and you probably won't see this hypocritical "I want cooperation and COMMUNITY... but I don't want to be arsed to do anything with that community except kill a World-spawned HNM" drivel.

[Ae Cha]

The consistent mentioning of "waste of time mobs" is the most annoying shit ever. I hope FF15 has a spot you can sit and kill mobs constantly for hours, then you just run into an area and sneak/invis past the "waste of time" mobs and get to the boss and next cs quicker.

I mean, the last thing I want to do when playing a video game with people is "waste my time". My ego is based on video game pixels, I need to procure them as quickly as possible so I can sit in town and afk in my town gear.

FFXI leveling was horrible and boring on the logistical level but it at least gave a tangible return versus not participating in it. There is no benefit whatsoever to clearing out trash mobs between you and the boss instead of sneaking through it; there is no challenge, no material reward, and it lessens your chance of getting the extremely competitive claim which is honestly probably harder than killing the thing itself. The only thing that comes out of it is time lost on your part.

It's useless to talk about how things should be. People are never going to change, they will always seek the path of least resistance. If you want a good game, you have to develop to the people's habits, not hope people will change themselves to meet an idealistic goal; people don't want to sit through hours of bothersome trash mobs with no challenge and no reward, so if they want people to actually engage them they'll have to change the dynamic of how trash clearing works and is viewed by the community. If they just remove sneak and invisible, people will just play something else that doesn't subject them to that level of grossly unrewarding tedious gameplay.

[Lucavi]

FFXI leveling was horrible and boring on the logistical level but it at least gave a tangible return versus not participating in it. There is no benefit whatsoever to clearing out trash mobs between you and the boss instead of sneaking through it; there is no challenge, no material reward, and it lessens your chance of getting the extremely competitive claim which is honestly probably harder than killing the thing itself. The only thing that comes out of it is time lost on your part.

It's useless to talk about how things should be. People are never going to change, they will always seek the path of least resistance. If you want a good game, you have to develop to the people's habits, not hope people will change themselves to meet an idealistic goal; people don't want to sit through hours of bothersome trash mobs with no challenge and no reward, so if they want people to actually engage them they'll have to change the dynamic of how trash clearing works and is viewed by the community. If they just remove sneak and invisible, people will just play something else that doesn't subject them to that level of grossly unrewarding tedious gameplay.

There is a benefit to clearing out trash mobs when the mobs can actually do something for you - better skill up rates, low level gear that can be sold or AHed for a profit - crafting materials for yourself, your friends, or even your linkshell. Just because FFXI did none of these things doesn't mean that they aren't possible, and aren't done in other games.

Human nature never changes, however human nature learns to adapt based on the confines of said human's environment. FFXI designed a system about needing to rush past everything to get to the big world-spawn that only showed up once a day, or once a week. FFXI also contained a system where the higher level you are in relation to the mob you kill, the lower percentage of drops, as well as skillups. Thus, you had, in effect, a system that discouraged you from killing just about anything that isn't your level, and discouraged you from killing anything that wasn't a 100% priority because you always had to be on alert for world-spawns.

Of course people are going to look down on trash mobs under a system like that. You change that system, however (and they should: FFXIV isn't supposed to be FFXI-2) and the way those humans interact within that system changes. People are still going to complain about things, but people may praise things that they otherwise would not have.

Its up to the company - what is their design philosophy? Did SE enjoy the act of corralling everyone into a dark pit to wait for a dragon to pop so everyone could mash their bots, claim it, then run off to the next one? Did they enjoy designing the system of ignoring anything that isn't higher level than you? Did they do it simply for pacing? To stretch the game out longer, and as such, collect more monthly fees?

I suppose we'll all have to wait and see.

[Esse]

I'm surprised not many people are mentioning instancing. They seem to use them quite a bit even in alpha, so why would they stop there? Personally, I'd be thrilled if they implemented HNM style fights a la FFXII. Go pick up the leve for your alliance, travel to the pop area, enter the pseudo-instance and begin the fight. Based on the direction that XI's design is heading as well as the liberal use of instancing we've seen in the alpha, I imagine this is how the system will work. I don't care if they make the mob extremely hard with terrible drop rates; don't make me sit around and piss myself waiting for a pop with a large window. Don't make me sleep next to my computer with my headphones on to listen for a call when Charybdis pops for the eighteenth time. That's terrible game design.

[Jinko]

I support the idea of instanced HNM's also, I would like to see instances where parties enter their own instance and race to a door which contains the HNM, fighting trash on their way (with no sneak and invisable) the first to get to the door gets to fight the boss, although if they fail to defeat the boss the runner up would get the claim.

Sure as hell would stop the botting crap and would be an interesting form of PVP.

It could be announced in world chat that a specific instance is about to be opened and the competition would start.

[Lucavi]

I'm surprised not many people are mentioning instancing. They seem to use them quite a bit even in alpha, so why would they stop there? Personally, I'd be thrilled if they implemented HNM style fights a la FFXII. Go pick up the leve for your alliance, travel to the pop area, enter the pseudo-instance and begin the fight. Based on the direction that XI's design is heading as well as the liberal use of instancing we've seen in the alpha, I imagine this is how the system will work. I don't care if they make the mob extremely hard with terrible drop rates; don't make me sit around and piss myself waiting for a pop with a large window. Don't make me sleep next to my computer with my headphones on to listen for a call when Charybdis pops for the eighteenth time. That's terrible game design.

Memories of that, man - don't bring them back to me.

[Siatdiat]

Guildleves are the biggest sign to see the direction FF14 is headed away from 11. But like 11 this is the not going to be the end all be all for the game. There will be more events added in later on. Bottom line I will cut off my own foot and shove it up my ass if their is contested world spawns that require standing around waiting to kill. There is a hundred things off the top of my head I can think of to make trash mobs worth killing for those of you who see MMOs as a job. For the people who just want to play a game, it will just be more frosting on the cake.

[Eaglestrike]

I support the idea of instanced HNM's also, I would like to see instances where parties enter their own instance and race to a door which contains the HNM, fighting trash on their way (with no sneak and invisable) the first to get to the door gets to fight the boss, although if they failed maybe the runner up would get the claim.

Sure as hell would stop the botting crap and would be an interesting form of PVP.

Go play Aion. I play PvE-based MMO's for PvE content, I don't want to have the majority of endgame consist of such "PvP".

[Jinko]

Go play Aion. I play PvE-based MMO's for PvE content, I don't want to have the majority of endgame consist of such "PvP".

Aion is PVPVE thats completely different.

[Siatdiat]

I support the idea of instanced HNM's also, I would like to see instances where parties enter their own instance and race to a door which contains the HNM, fighting trash on their way (with no sneak and invisable) the first to get to the door gets to fight the boss, although if they fail to defeat the boss the runner up would get the claim.

Sure as hell would stop the botting crap and would be an interesting form of PVP.

It could be announced in world chat that a specific instance is about to be opened and the competition would start.

I don't think I have ever read a shittier idea in the history of these forums.

[Sign]

I support the idea of instanced HNM's also, I would like to see instances where parties enter their own instance and race to a door which contains the HNM, fighting trash on their way (with no sneak and invisable) the first to get to the door gets to fight the boss, although if they fail to defeat the boss the runner up would get the claim.

Sure as hell would stop the botting crap and would be an interesting form of PVP.

It could be announced in world chat that a specific instance is about to be opened and the competition would start.

So what happens when 1 shell gets there first, wins, gets some good loot to make themselves stronger. Next time they come out they are a little better than the other groups due to that loot and now they kill faster making it even easier to get to the boss first, again getting the drops and getting a little stronger. Repeat ad nauseum.

[loyaltrekie]

Just because there aren't any visible 'zone lines' hardly relates to there isn't a 'zone line' or mob chase point. I.E. once x distance from original spawn point it stops chasing you. There hardly needs to be stupid NPC's that come out and one shot things brought near towns - just have then turn tail and run back to their original spawn point.

On another note, in the past 10 pages it seems people think that you'll be able to just grab a mob from an area on one side of the world and just drag it back to the starter towns -_-

Originally Posted by Jollipop
I support the idea of instanced HNM's also, I would like to see instances where parties enter their own instance and race to a door which contains the HNM, fighting trash on their way (with no sneak and invisable) the first to get to the door gets to fight the boss, although if they fail to defeat the boss the runner up would get the claim.

Sure as hell would stop the botting crap and would be an interesting form of PVP.

It could be announced in world chat that a specific instance is about to be opened and the competition would start.

No, if you think botting monopolized HNM's that system would be even worse. The same linkshell(s) would always get claim to being superior in destroying their way through trash mobs, and you completely eliminate any way for more 'low man - better skilled' shells to get a chance since a low man group won't be able to kill trash mobs better at 6 people then a shell that brings 40 to every event. The idea on it's basic levels is flawed - and has no way of creating a 'fair playing field'.

I don't quite understand what is with all the Allakazham ideas coming up around here so much recently, it's quite disheartening.

Go play Aion. I play PvE-based MMO's for PvE content, I don't want to have the majority of endgame consist of such "PvP".

That is a far stretch from PvP anyways - if they do PvP they might as well do it correctly.

[Meresgi]

I support the idea of instanced HNM's also, I would like to see instances where parties enter their own instance and race to a door which contains the HNM, fighting trash on their way (with no sneak and invisable) the first to get to the door gets to fight the boss, although if they fail to defeat the boss the runner up would get the claim.

Sure as hell would stop the botting crap and would be an interesting form of PVP.

It could be announced in world chat that a specific instance is about to be opened and the competition would start.

Sooooo Dredgion from Aion....which sucked ass.

[Lucavi]

Shit, ballista wasn't even that bad, it just was treated like every other side event: like shit, with no rewards attached.

There was only so much SE could do with PVP with a game designed like FFXI. Ballista was actually a truck-load of fun for me. One-shotting blms in uncapped on a triple attack procced jump was much fun.

[Meresgi]

Aion is PVPVE thats completely different.

And show's how horrible a concept that is in execution. Same with World of Warcraft. When a MMO seeks to do both well, they usually fail at both, sometimes more on one said then another. Either their balance for pvp is horribly done, or they lack any PvE for end game because they concentrated on balancing PvP too much.

I would much rather have FF14 do PvE and only PvE then maybe later down the road add a little pvp events for flavor.

[Lucavi]

And show's how horrible a concept that is in execution. Same with World of Warcraft. When a MMO seeks to do both well, they usually fail at both, sometimes more on one said then another. Either their balance for pvp is horribly done, or they lack any PvE for end game because they concentrated on balancing PvP too much.

I would much rather have FF14 do PvE and only PvE then maybe later down the road add a little pvp events for flavor.

So... you want FFXI, in that respect? FFXI did exactly what you described, and it wasn't some crown jewel of the PVE world. I seem to remember a slow, clunky battle system.

[Alderaan]

Sooooo Dredgion from Aion....which sucked ass.

And as with Aion, it would turn into how many mobs you can train and wipe the other group with. It didn't work there and i can't see this working in XIV. Personally thought it was a fantastic concept implemented as poorly as possible. It would work if it wasn't for, well us.

[Meresgi]

So... you want FFXI, in that respect? FFXI did exactly what you described, and it wasn't some crown jewel of the PVE world. I seem to remember a slow, clunky battle system.

I'd like FFXI with improvements to what you stated and with new things in the pve context. You know, what you would expect from a second iteration of a MMO Final Fantasy. That's usually their MO, they try new things with each game, keep what works and try more new things. Focusing on 2 things at once while making MMO just makes those 2 things halfassed, or your project takes forever to be released.

[Hyan]

So... you want FFXI, in that respect? FFXI did exactly what you described, and it wasn't some crown jewel of the PVE world. I seem to remember a slow, clunky battle system.

Well, even if they concentrated on just one thing, that still doesn't mean the outcome will be inevitably great.

But generally, I think that's the case.

However, it's not certainly the only way to make it work. If you only do what's proven to be a good concept and don't really focus on creating new ones (Aion), then it might be possible. But still, that's like playing the same game you've played so much already (WoW in the most cases) and just.. not so much fun as you'd expect.

I don't think anything was wrong with Aion per se, but when people complain about the lack of "fun" and "immersion" I think it relates to that.