FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread II: Let's Speculate the Speculations

[Thulius]

Aside from the interface, no, it's not really similar.

[Jinko]

Thulius is correct about the fact that different skills have different global cooldowns.

Those aren't global cooldowns they are recast timers.

Global cooldowns effect when you can active your next ability/skill, which in this case is the ATB bar.

Obviously I am going by the videos I have watched so perhaps I'm wrong.

[Meko]

Those aren't global cooldowns they are recast timers.

Global cooldowns effect when you can active your next ability/skill, which in this case is the ATB bar.

So that I'm sure, the recast timer simply indicates when the ability/spell is available for use but the actual action bar is when you are able to use ANY ability (including a normal attack).

[Thulius]

Those aren't global cooldowns they are recast timers.

Global cooldowns effect when you can active your next ability/skill, which in this case is the ATB bar.

That's exactly what I'm saying; different abilities have different global cooldowns. Try using, say, a TP attack followed by a normal attack and then raging strike followed by a normal attack.

Different abilities have different "ATB bar" charge times as well as individual cooldowns. If you've played FFXI think of it like the delay after boost/berserk/other buff JAs compared to the delay after a weaponskill.

[FriemOcin]

This isn't really on the topic of ATB, but when I was thinking about the older FF games, I started thinking about what info the game shows you, and how it's presented. I never really liked all the info being crammed into that box on the left. When in a party, I think I'd prefer the abilities my teammates are using to appear somewhere near their names, while I'm watching their HP. Like in FFXI where you could choose to have the damage dealt appear on the enemy rather than in the box, I'd like it if you could filter what abilities your teammates are using from the box and have them appear by their names.

Then again, I've never really played many MMOs. Maybe I need more experience in them before I rule out the importance of knowing when my teammates performed each of their abilities.

[Aurelius]

That's exactly what I'm saying; different abilities have different global cooldowns. Try using, say, a TP attack followed by a normal attack and then raging strike followed by a normal attack.

Different abilities have different "ATB bar" charge times as well as individual cooldowns. If you've played FFXI think of it like the delay after boost/berserk/other buff JAs compared to the delay after a weaponskill.

I think maybe you're getting hung up on the terminology. If it's a cooldown that is different from one ability to the next, it's not a global cooldown. A global cooldown exists for the purpose of preventing you from spamming one ability after another as fast as you can press your buttons. In order to be labeled a global cooldown, it has to be the same duration across the board...hence "global".

[Jinko]

FWIW Allods has no auto attack and I think the battle system is pretty good there, perhaps a little on the fast side though.

[Thulius]

I think maybe you're getting hung up on the terminology. If it's a cooldown that is different from one ability to the next, it's not a global cooldown. A global cooldown exists for the purpose of preventing you from spamming one ability after another as fast as you can press your buttons. In order to be labeled a global cooldown, it has to be the same duration across the board...hence "global".

Alright, obviously there's a misunderstanding here so let me reword this.

Different abilities don't have different GCDs, they trigger different GCDs. What I've been trying to say is that the time you have to wait to make ANY action after raging strike is shorter than the time you have to wait to make ANY action after concussive blow.

[Sieg]

Alright, obviously there's a misunderstanding here so let me reword this.

Different abilities don't have different GCDs, they trigger different GCDs. What I've been trying to say is that the time you have to wait to make ANY action after raging strike is shorter than the time you have to wait to make ANY action after concussive blow.

I can't speak for Pugilist but I have not noticed anything like this on Gladiator.

[Jinko]

Thats more like cast time isn't it ?

But its good to know the ATB has different cast times per skill.

[Katlan]

So... tried to craft last night.. picked up the synthesis weapons.. but how the hell u know what u need to synth? I wondered around looking for a place to buy crystals or get some leve type crafting quests. Anybody mind giving some tips? Maybe its just cause there are no chat filters, w/makes the chat log almost useless, but couldn't get help in game from /sh's

[Jinko]

When you pick up a crafting leve you are given the items required to meet the order.

They are temporary items and don't show up in your inventory i believe.

Trial and error seems to be the way to know how to make stuff outside of leves, I'm sure NPC's give you tips aswell just like in FF11.

As I said a few weeks back I hope testers at least ask for a recipe book of some kind to keep track of discovered recipes.

[Reiryuu]

Thats more like cast time isn't it ?

But its good to know the ATB has different cast times per skill.

I think the appropriate word here is "Recovery time".

He is not talking about pressing a button then waiting for the ability to go off, he is talking about the ability going off then having to wait till he can press/queue up another ability afterwords.

It may be an effect of lag, it may be an intended reaction. Probably not going to be able to tell till they can ease the lag on the server a bit more. Maybe when they get additional servers up and chars are more spread out it will be easier to see.

[Katlan]

When you pick up a crafting leve you are given the items required to meet the order.

They are temporary items and don't show up in your inventory i believe.

Trial and error seems to be the way to know how to make stuff outside of leves, I'm sure NPC's give you tips aswell just like in FF11.

I'm asking where the leves are lol. I searched the entire town for them (or so i thought). I even changed to a smith thinking that would open up the leve dialogue

[Lucavi]

I know where you're coming from, but I still think the core problem was that there wasn't enough stuff to do during fights, not the combat speed itself.



When implemented correctly, it makes the choice as to which skill to use at what time more important imo. Y'know, the tactical aspect SE keeps talking about.

Right now we don't see it, because really, it doesn't matter much. Mobs have low hp, there's not many of 'em at time, you don't have too many skills to choose from..

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The pure Drg job had, what... 3 jumps with massive cooldowns, a useless circle, and eventually spirit link. Couple that with a slow-ass lance with loads of delay, and you had a recipe for doing the old monk habit of making a sammich or filing taxes inbetween weaponskills.

I actually have a set rotation of things to do on my Hunter in WoW, and if I just decide arbitrarily throw out random moves, my damage is going to suffer. I'm not vouching for rotations just to pump out damage, but if I want to go back to the days of FFXI, I can always just do the slow auto-shoot.

FFXIV already looks much better because there's simply more to do, but I agree, not every skill should be on the same global cooldown. Having everything locked up into one global cooldown is good if you're trying to preserve that old-school FF feel of "one attack at a time until your next turn", but it really doesn't translate well into the new generation of MMOs which are trying to get into that realistic style of combat where people aren't waiting around for seconds after a sword swing.

The system isn't rendering the game unplayable at all, IMO, but its just one of those things that I hope they continue to research and eventually do away with. You can't have a rotation of skills (even if they use a constantly regaining resource like TP) if everything is locked into a 3-4 second cooldown. I can't imagine how we're going to be able to effectively fight packs of mobs if all you can do is mash one AOE move every 4 seconds. That's not exactly realistic (or engaging, or fun) combat.

Edit: There seems to be some misunderstanding about what constitutes a recast timer and what constitutes a global cooldown.

[mightyg]

My only issue with the ATB system they have in place is missing the max level because of lag or having to subtarget. These problems are not super serious mind you, but I feel like the whole point of having a charging gauge would be so people could take time to maneuver or change tactics and since the gauge resets itself after 3 bars it really just punishes you for doing so by "losing a turn". I say they increase the size/duration of the charge bar, and prevent it from reseting itself. That way when monsters move, you want to get into sneak attack position, adjust your range, etc, you'll recieve a bit more damage on the next strike to make up for it.

[Vitglance]

You can't have a rotation of skills (even if they use a constantly regaining resource like TP) if everything is locked into a 3-4 second cooldown. I can't imagine how we're going to be able to effectively fight packs of mobs if all you can do is mash one AOE move every 4 seconds. That's not exactly realistic (or engaging, or fun) combat.

I was kind of hoping the battles would have enough variety and unpredictability that a 'one size fits all' rotation wouldn't be the way to go about things. Sure it makes you feel busy, but, it's kind of brainless.

[Hyan]

The gauge also lowers your accuracy as you get more bars, so if it didn't reset and you missed your opportunity it would screw you over. You'd have to do the skill with less acc, which isn't optimal in all cases.

The point is to time your attacks. Alpha lag makes this impossible but that's not the case in retail. If you're too slow, you get "punished" by getting more acc but less attack.

I was kind of hoping the battles would have enough variety and unpredictability that a 'one size fits all' rotation wouldn't be the way to go about things. Sure it makes you feel busy, but, it's kind of brainless.

I seriously doubt there will be rotations (for everything at least). Many skills are highly situational and sometimes better not used depending on the situation at time. I doubt there's an "optimal" way of doing skills. Which all plays in to the "tactical" aspect SE seems to be fond of. There's many variables too.

[LostCat]

To explain the cool down thing, I believe this is what people are saying.

The Action Gauge works similar to the familiar ATB system, but the time is not set in stone. If you use a basic attack action, afterwords it takes 4 seconds for the Action Gauge to fill up (as an example. Not all classes will have a 4 second cool down with their basic action). Then you use a skill that does something like "enhances attack." It then only takes 1 second for the Action Gauge to fill up.

Each skill has it's own recast and the Action Gauge "cool down" varies based on the last skill you used.

And if that isn't how it works at the moment then I'm sure SE will adopt that system later in development.

[Loaar]

I can't speak for Pugilist but I have not noticed anything like this on Gladiator.

Glad doesn't have any of the skills that do it as a native skill so far.

The only ones that I have personally seen this shorter "global cooldown" (its not the right word but its hard to explain) for are Raging Strikes and Bloodbath. I'm going to assume its because instead of an attack its a buff that affects your next attack.

Thats more like cast time isn't it ?

But its good to know the ATB has different cast times per skill.

Its not related to cast time. Each skill has its own cast time (many are zero seconds cast time though) and its own cooldown.

I guess its possible that what we are saying is related to the lag, assuming the lag is related to when the server "triggers" your attack. For example, the two skills I mentioned don't use the effect gauge, so you can't charge them up. Maybe what we are seeing is the server just instantly triggering the skill and starting to charge the next since its not waiting to see at what point in the "effect gauge" you want to actually use the skill.

If that is the case, then the lag is associated with the effect gauge and not the atb system, and what we are seeing with those two skills is what all combat is supposed to be like according to SE's design.