Intro to Fencing & Fencing @ Virginia Beach this weekend!

[Zhais]

I've mentioned fencing a few random times in my posts here... and after seeing an amazing post on the NeoGaf forums, I've decided to cross-post most of the information here as well to spark some interest in the sport as well as outline the general information about fencing.

Original thread is here for those interested.

General

This post will only refer to the Olympic sport of fencing, and not historical, classical, or stage fencing (but feel free to discuss those in the thread). The Olympic sport is just that: a sport. It does not teach any combat skills (even though you might pick them up) and it does not try to recreate "real" swordplay (even though there might be similarities). It is just a game, played mainly for fun, for excitement, and for competition.

http://z.about.com/d/olympics/1/0/A/-/-/-/Styles.jpg

Types

There are three types of fencing: foil, epee, sabre. Each has its own set of rules making them very different. Nowadays, a fencer that's successful in one weapon doesn't compete in another, although this was more common in the far away past, maybe when the competitors were not as athletic.

The target area in foil is the smallest, which is why many consider it to be the most technically demanding of the three weapons.
Epee has the largest target area (the whole body), which doesn't mean it's easy to hit, mainly because the fencers are much more cautious of coming into play.

Both of these are thrusting weapons, and to score you need to make contact with the very point of the weapon.

Sabre is a cutting weapon, so you can hit with the edge (or any part) of the sabre in order to score. Thrusts are also valid, but infrequently used. As in sabre it is probably the easiest to score a hit, the game is much more dynamic. Footwork is by far the most important thing in sabre -- you have to be able to move up and down the strip rapidly to avoid your opponent or to hit him.

http://www.abingdonfencing.org.uk/images/web_003.jpg

The Piste

The field of play is called a strip (or piste, in French, the official language of fencing). It is 14 meters long and 1.5 to 2 meters wide. If you go off the back of the strip with both feet, your opponent gets the point.

Athletes

I guess fencing is considered an "aristocratic sport," but today, the highest levels of the sport don't reflect this at all. Some of the USA's greatest success in the sport (2 silver medalists in 2008 and more) has come from the Peter Westbrook Foundation, an organization aimed at getting under-privileged, inner-city kids involved with the sport.

Today's fencers have to be really well-rounded mentally, as the sport relies heavily on psychological games, as most one-on-one sports do. On top of this, they have to push themselves physically, to find their limits in explosiveness, speed, reaction, balance, agility, and power.

Right of Way

Right of way is a governing rule in foil and sabre, but does not exist in epee. Here is a quick summary:

If a fencer initiates an attack and both fencers hit, the initiator gets the point.
If a fencer's attack is parried, and both fencers then make an attack that hits, the fencer who parried gets the point (his attack is called a riposte).
If a fencer's attack misses, and both fencers then make an attack that hits, the fencer who made the opponent miss gets the point.
If a fencer initiates an attack but then prepares (pulls his hand back) and both fencers hit, the opponent who attacks into the preparation gets the point.

In epee, you just have to hit first and you get the point. It therefore attracts many "purists" who feel it best compares to swordplay. Personally, I feel it's debatable. If Mike hits Jerry on the toe, and .1 seconds later Jerry hits Mike in the heart or the head, Mike will get the point because the scoring machine will indicate he hit first. But it's not very representative of "real" combat. Like I said, none of the weapons are good analogies for swordplay, even if there are similarities in concepts.

Scoring

Detection of hits is done electronically. In sabre, the explanation is the simplest: Both fencers wear an electric jacket and are hooked up to a retractable reel that carries a signal to a central machine. When a fencer's sabre makes contact with the opponent's jacket, it completes a circuit, indicated by a green or red light on the scoring apparatus. Foil and epee follow the same concept, but are a little more complicated because both involve depressing a button on the tip of the weapon, which detects when a thrust attack has hit (in foil and epee, you can only score with a thrust). Also, in major events, like Grand Prix World Cups, World Championships, and the Olympics, the reels are eliminated via a wireless system.

The machines only detect who hit whom. They do not award points. There is a referee in every bout who awards the points. In epee, this is pretty cut and dry, since whoever hit first gets the touch. In foil and epee, there are many times when both lights go on, and the referee has to say who initiated the action and got the touch. There is also video review, so a fencer can ask for the call to be examined and overturned. In a direct elimination bout, a fencer has up to two incorrect challenges, and unlimited correct ones (similar to tennis).

Preliminary pool bouts are 5 points each and direct elimination bouts are to 15 points.

Yelling and Celebration

If you watch fencing, you'll notice A LOT of yelling and screaming, especially in sabre. There are lots of reasons for this. When fencing, you have to control yourself constantly. In each moment you are vulnerable and in each moment you can score. There's no "down time" during a point like there might be in other sports. As such, tension is always high. When someone hits, there's a tremendous release of energy that was perhaps being restricted.

Fencers also yell to pump themselves up, to work up their confidence, and to make their opponent feel less confident. At the highest level, the competitors all have similar skill-sets, so most of the time it comes down to who can perform the best under pressure and who can get the emotional momentum in his favor.

There are those that claim that fencers yell to influence the referee, so that, in foil in sabre, the referee will call right-of-way in their favor. I think most refs are cool enough to look at the material facts instead, especially now that we have slow motion video replay, but I will say this: it's much more likely that a ref won't screw up a call if the fencer who scored is confident in his action. Vocal output and fist-pumping does help this.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...2__789754c.jpg

Watching (Sabre) Fencing and a Basic Explanation of What's Going on

Sabre touches are extremely quick. It's easy to hit in sabre: just make contact with your blade to the opponent's target (torso, arms, head). Even the slightest contact will make the machine light up. As such, a fencer always has to be affecting his opponent. If he stands around, he'll get hit.

The fencers begin at the starting lines (aka En Guarde lines). The referee says "Ready? Fence" or "Prêt? Allez" and the fencers begin. From the beginning, they try to do both: move forward to potentially attack or to fake and draw an action from the opponent.

Here are some extremely basic possibilities:

Mike is coming forward slowly, not doing much of anything, and Jerry makes an aggressive attack and hits. Jerry's point.

Mike now doesn't want to lose the next point, so at the referee's command, they both go forward and hit. Simultaneous action; no point.

Jerry now sees that Mike is more aggressive, so Jerry starts the next touch as if he's going to attack and Mike follows suit. Right before the finish of the attack, Jerry pulls back with a parry, and a surprised Mike gets hit with the riposte.

The next touch, Mike suspects that Jerry will fake attack and parry once more, so as Mike is about to finish, he pulls his hand back and takes another step, giving himself time to disengage, or go around, Jerry's parry. Jerry gets hit with Mike's extended attack and loses the point.

Jerry has an idea that Mike will repeat this, so he sets up the action the same way: He starts the fake attack, pulls back as if he's going to take a parry, but this time, as Mike takes the extra step (and therefore the extra time), Jerry hits him in the middle of it. This is called attack in preparation.

Completely lost? That's expected and ok. This is tough for me to do without visual aids, but even with them, it's difficult to understand the action without doing it yourself, and that's the biggest barrier to people watching fencing. Doesn't keep me from trying, though.

Epee

Epee fencing is radically different. In Saber and Foil, only one fencer can be awarded a touch (determined by who hit and who had right of way). In Epee, if both competitors score a hit, they are both awarded one point each. This forces Epee competitors to be much more cautious in their attacks and tactics.

Epee is a much more patient game than the other two weapons. Oftentimes competitors will take the first minute of the bout feeling each other out, seeing what they react to and if they plan on being defensive or offensive. Very few touches will be scored during the first period. As the bout progresses, the score will rack up fast once the opponents have figured each other out.

Media

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Beijing 2008 Olympics - Men's Sabre

Smart (USA) v Szilagyi (Hungary) in the round of 16:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAf8stPkXC4

Keeth Smart is the best men's sabre fencer USA has ever had. He wins this bout against a very young up and coming star from Hungary to make the top 8. He loses his next bout to Pillet of France. However, he leads USA in the team event later on to finish second for a silver medal

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a World Cup in Dallas, Texas 2009 - Men's Sabre

Montano (Italy) v Yakimenko (Russia) for the gold medal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy-Qc5LR9f0

Aldo Montano is the 2004 Olympic Champion; Yakimenko is the best Russian fencer right now, after the recent retirement of Pozdniakov, who probably has the most decorated career out of any modern sabre fencer.

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Beijing 2008 Olympics - Men's Epee

Abajo (Spain) v Tagliariol (Italy) in the semifinals:

part 2 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJazNpSF0lE

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Beijing 2008 Olympics - Men's Foil

Ota (Japan) v Joppich (Germany)

part 1 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjT7WB_5rZc

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http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/O...lTSH_Hkjil.jpg

http://www.fencingphotos.com/Fencing...ncing_4686.jpg

http://www.nlsc.co.uk/images/wc5a.jpg

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How Can I Start Fencing?

Find a club near you. They're usually happy to get more interest:

http://usfencing.org/pages/3788

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What's my involvement with the sport? I'm currently a competitive fencer and want to participate someday in the Olympics. This is quite a ways off for me, but a goal I do hope to achieve. My first step towards this goal is competing this weekend at the Division 1 North American Cup (NAC) in Virginia Beach! In order to gain national points, I have to place in atleast the top 32 of the tournament. The top 3~4 in national points are elected to be a part of the national team to compete internationally for the USA. Div 1 national championships are also only open to competitors that have earned points in another event.

I primarily fence Epee, also competing only in Div 1 Men's Epee this Sunday. Locally, I actively compete in all three weapons to better understand the sport in it's entirety. I also coach for the Omaha Fencing Club and the University of Nebraska at Omaha... while competing for the Lincoln Fencing Club in Nebraska. Keeps me quite busy

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So now for Virginia Beach: North American Cup F - Virginia Beach April 23-26

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_P7pGW9k6Qgg/S8...ForFencers.jpghttp://lh3.ggpht.com/_P7pGW9k6Qgg/S8...tionCenter.jpg

Schedule (for Division 1 events)
Friday, April 23
8:30am: Women's Foil
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_P7pGW9k6Qgg/S8...er.Prescod.jpg

Saturday, April 24
8:30am: Women's Epee
8:30am: Men's Sabre (you can expect the finals to start around 1pm or so)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_P7pGW9k6Qgg/S8.../menssabre.jpg

Sunday, April 25
8:30am: Men's Epee
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_P7pGW9k6Qgg/S8...k/mensepee.jpg


1:00pm: Women's Sabre

Mariel Zagunis, 2-time Olympic gold medalist
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_P7pGW9k6Qgg/S8...LqU/Mariel.jpg

Monday, April 26
8:30am: Men's Foil
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Some quick info about these North American Cups (NACs):

- Epee events take a long time, so if one starts at 8am, don't expect the final until 5pm or later. I'll be in the Div 1 Men's Epee event, starting at 8:30 am on Sunday

- Sabre events are very quick, plus have a smaller group of competitors. The women's sabre event, which starts at 1pm, will probably be done by 4 or 5pm.

- I only listed the division 1 events, which are the strongest. There are also Youth events at this tournament, so if you stop by you will see LOTS of 8 to 14-year-olds running around. Ask around to find out where the div. 1 events are being fenced.

- All the division 1 tournaments start with a round of pools (if there are 105 competitors, they'll be split into 17 pools of 7 fencers each). Pools are fenced round-robin, so everyone fencers everyone in his pool in 5-point matches. After this round, the top 80% of the competitors advance, are ranked according to their results (percentage of victories, then by number of points scored for/against), and are placed in a table of direct elimination. Then, 128 fencers go to 64, to 32, to 16, etc.

- The United States Fencing Association (USFA) doesn't go out of its way to make these inviting to spectators, which is why I'd like to do. Don't be afraid to walk in, around, and right up to the strips. Each area containing fencing strips will have a divider around it, and you can come up right next to the divider.

- Fencing is incomprehensible in the beginning. Strike up a conversation with anyone and ask him/her what's going on.

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Hopefully anyone in the VA Beach area can make it out.

I will edit the OP with the answers to any questions you might have or better descriptions and explanations. Feel free to discuss anything fencing related.

[Omniyoji]

Swordplay is just fun! Thanks for all the info Zhais. I've always enjoyed watching fencing but never understood some of the mechanics. It's an elegant sport and there's just something about women fencing that turns me on...

[Not Kuno]

Fencing is fun as hell. I was on the fencing team in HS, I loved every minute of it.

[Aurara]

Fencing is sooooo much fun, did it for 3 years before i started swimming :< was a saber person myself.

[Aurara]

Fencing is fun as hell. I was on the fencing team in HS, I loved every minute of it.

Kuno if they had a fencing team at my school, i'd be all over it..alas they do not

[Zhais]

I started out doing saber... then realized the awesomeness of epee.

Oh, and women fencers tend to be hot as hell. Just fyi

[Gryffes]

I fenced foil in school, was awesome fun.

[liggy 0]

college fencing for 2 years

saber4life, screw the epee kids

[Darus Grey]

I was captain of my fencing team during middleschool, highschool, and my first undergrad.

When I was a much younger fitter man(I stopped playing even casually after I developed severe anemia around 25), I seriously considered competing on a national/global level, and came to hate the sport because of it, fencing at the high level, to me, seems much more elitist and closed-door than many other sports, cheating has always been rampant, and who you are is simply much more important than how good you are as long as you're above a certain level. The people who make it to the Olympics and similar level competitions are NOT the best, the best are often purposefully kept away, it has a very old boys club feel to it, your sponsor often plays a bigger role in your success than you do.

I was also unsatisfied that fencing has developed into uselessness in terms of a martial art, people play the game to score points(as well they should), but to someone who cares about actual swordsmanship it has developed into a parody of itself, you see the most retarded shit that no one would ever do in a lethal situation.

[Jefe]

My long lost love. I used to practice it in Mex. (we call it over there Esgrima), but here in the states it's fucking expensive as hell. Sadly my schools didn't have it either ;x Foil was my favourite because the area to attack is much more smaller (chest).

[Zhais]

When I was a much younger fitter man(I stopped playing even casually after I developed severe anemia around 25), I seriously considered competing on a national/global level, and came to hate the sport because of it, fencing at the high level, to me, seems much more elitist and closed-door than many other sports, cheating has always been rampant, and who you are is simply much more important than how good you are as long as you're above a certain level. The people who make it to the Olympics and similar level competitions are NOT the best, the best are often purposefully kept away, it has a very old boys club feel to it, your sponsor often plays a bigger role in your success than you do.

I will admit, some clubs stick to the elitist persona and restrict their membership greatly. But for every club I've found like that, I've found two other clubs that are willing to do their best to advance you regardless of who you are.

I haven't seen this 'keep the best away' idea you're talking about. The best of our top-level athletes right now are almost always selected for the national team. The ones that are at the peak of their game and can make it to the competitions are selected, as it is.

It may not have been that way in the past, but it's grown to be much more respectable as of late.

I was also unsatisfied that fencing has developed into uselessness in terms of a martial art, people play the game to score points(as well they should), but to someone who cares about actual swordsmanship it has developed into a parody of itself, you see the most retarded shit that no one would ever do in a lethal situation.

Just have to remember, it is a sport/game. It lost it's capacity for martial arts long before our time, and especially grew out of it with the advent of electric gear. When you had 5 referees for every bout, you had to make it more obvious that you were skewering an opponent with a sword. Now, you just have to hit with the right action, whether it's pretty or not.

I actually got into fencing through my martial arts class, and just took off with it there. I did kendo as well during some time side-by-side, and still work on my martial arts when I have time. Fencing, kendo are not martial arts. It's a game, and shouldn't be taken as such. The actions I do in fencing/kendo are drastically different than in martial arts (save for epee... that's the most similar fencing weapon to actual dueling).

Although, the footwork from fencing has helped everything else I do tremendously. Footwork and distance concepts directly translate into martial arts skills, so don't pass it off as completely useless yet

[Zhais]

My long lost love. I used to practice it in Mex. (we call it over there Esgrima), but here in the states it's fucking expensive as hell. Sadly my schools didn't have it either ;x Foil was my favourite because the area to attack is much more smaller (chest).

Escrime is the french term for it, translates into Esgrima/fencing.

Cost can be reduced considerably by finding a good area club that has club equipment to loan out during practice. Can be nasty as hell, but you can probably convince them to let you wash stuff as well.

[Tidy]

Haha. I live right across from the convention center.

[Zhais]

Haha. I live right across from the convention center.

You should drop by then, see the awesomeness :D

[SephYuyX]

Live no where close, but very informative none the less.

[Darus Grey]

Just have to remember, it is a sport/game. It lost it's capacity for martial arts long before our time, and especially grew out of it with the advent of electric gear. When you had 5 referees for every bout, you had to make it more obvious that you were skewering an opponent with a sword. Now, you just have to hit with the right action, whether it's pretty or not.

I actually got into fencing through my martial arts class, and just took off with it there. I did kendo as well during some time side-by-side, and still work on my martial arts when I have time. Fencing, kendo are not martial arts. It's a game, and shouldn't be taken as such. The actions I do in fencing/kendo are drastically different than in martial arts (save for epee... that's the most similar fencing weapon to actual dueling).

Although, the footwork from fencing has helped everything else I do tremendously. Footwork and distance concepts directly translate into martial arts skills, so don't pass it off as completely useless yet

Yeah, I played during the major transition from traditional judges to electronic score-keeping and that pretty much changed the game overnight in terms of the way people played.

I started fencing because I was trained with traditional (french-Style) rapier and the "I could kill any of these idiots in a fight" thing has gnawed at me from the very start.

[Tidy]

You should drop by then, see the awesomeness :D

I'll definitely try to check it out.

[Plow]

My roommate in college had been like a u13 or u14 national champion in fencing in Kuwait, I only ever saw the trophies though, always wished I actually got to see him do it.

I seriously considered competing on a national/global level, and came to hate the sport because of it, fencing at the high level, to me, seems much more elitist and closed-door than many other sports, cheating has always been rampant, and who you are is simply much more important than how good you are as long as you're above a certain level. The people who make it to the Olympics and similar level competitions are NOT the best, the best are often purposefully kept away, it has a very old boys club feel to it, your sponsor often plays a bigger role in your success than you do.

Amusingly enough, this is *EXACTLY* why American soccer is not competitive. The best players are entirely ignored in favor of the ones whose parents donate the most and the ones that play "exciting" styles even if they're only good enough to get exciting once every 20 games.

Pretty much any soccer "tryouts" and whatnot you go to, including the Olympic Development Program which I went pretty far into, if they don't know your name before you show up, you're not "making it," period.

[Lucavi]

So, in summary:

White people are elitist.

Sounds about right. Fencing is still cool, though.

[Ohemgee]

I want to stab someone