Arizona to illegals: GTFO.

[Rhinox]

So...100% then?

Come on Archi use some critical thinking here.


People who overstay visas are Illegals. They didn't commit a crime and they make up significant portion of Illegals in this country.

Which would make what you said pretty fucking stupid.

[Kyreth]

And its not a crime.

The crime is committed when they cross the border illegally. simply being here illegally isn't a crime.

You're chopping logic mighty fine there.

Every illegal immigrant has committed at the least an act of trespassing when they crossed the border into the United States (or entering and then overstaying that welcome). Every employer using one commits another. But hey, it's a bloodless crime so who cares. Right?

[blev]

people are pickin this shit apart with a fine-toothed comb and getting down into stuff that has nothing to do with the original topic lol.

the problem is not so much with the people who over-stay visas, it lies mostly with the majority that sneak across the border into the country. you think Arizona would make such a big deal about people staying longer than their visa says they can? if that's the case, then you are dumb. the majority of illegal immigrants in this country are not here on work visas. if that were the case, it would be easier to find and deport them.

[Rhinox]

You're chopping logic mighty fine there.

Every illegal immigrant has committed at the least an act of trespassing when they crossed the border into the United States (or entering and then overstaying that welcome). Every employer using one commits another. But hey, it's a bloodless crime so who cares. Right?

Its not a crime to be here Illegally jfc

[Rhinox]

Its not about the European Immigrants its about the Mexicans

Is all you had to say.

[archibaldcrane]

Rhinox, I do appreciate the tactic of conflating illegal immigrants who arrive legally with border-crossing criminals.

I was going to follow that statement up with something but I kinda forgot. Anyway, it's a good tactic, and of course you're right - it's not about European or Asian or whateverthefuck other immigrants it's about Mexicans. Noone is under any other assumption.

[Tits]

Link 1) http://www.mcaodocuments.com/press/20081002_a.pdf
There's some numbers for you straight out of Maricopa County Arizona as published 10/2/2008.
Page 1 of the document:

"The analysis found that in 2007, illegal immigrants accounted for:
16.5% of those sentenced for violent crimes
18.5% of those sentenced for property crimes
33.5% of those sentenced for manufacture, sale or transport of drugs

There's more, but I presume you'll click the link and read for yourself. This article also counts that, for making up approximately 9% of the population, illegal immigrants account for 1/5th the crime rate in all of Arizona. Curious how numbers can skew any argument.

Link 2)
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=507

"Half of all violent crimes and a third of property crimes were reported to law enforcement agencies in 2000"

Link 3) http://www.jrsa.org/events/conferenc...neena_Wing.pdf

Bureau of Justice statistics demonstrate that under 50% of crimes are reported.

Link 4)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/wo....20393351.html

Approximately a 600% raise in nonviolent crime rate along the border of Arizona and Mexico. Just because the reported rate of violent crimes has dropped, does not mean that crime rate has dropped.

Feel free to peruse and then come back with more numbers. It can be a fun game. How long will it take you to understand that numbers exist to support any argument. Oh wait, we've now demonstrated another subject Beckwin doesn't quite understand. Statistics.

Anyway, have fun. The original point (which you failed to address) is still that your Newsweek article that is citing an official source cannot be taken as 100% fact as numbers exist for (as I stated just one paragraph above) either side of the coin. It really has nothing to do with me being xenophobic or racist (neither of which I am) and more to do with your assertion that your sources are irrefutable. Your sources are just as unreliable as you are.

[Beckwin]

We've already covered in this thread that there is cartel related violence, but conflating that with illegal immigration is misguided.

For that 600% figure, are you just going on the increase in kidnappings? I've already posted an article about kidnappings, and surprise, those are factored into overall crime rates. Also, the kidnappings are specifically cartel related, less to do with illegal immigration in general.

If half of all crimes are unreported, that would roughly apply across the board. And, as noted in previous articles, murders are much less likely to go undocumented. I'd say Arizona's and NYC's murder numbers are pretty close to complete.

I'd like to look at the Maricopa data but the page is not loading; I want to read the methodology. I'll save judgment for now, but I have reservations.

But even factoring in the cartels (which conflates the issue), Phoenix is rated one of the top 10 safest cities this year, and in the busiest border crossing area, there's been one murder in the past 10 years. Statistics of crime decreases during immigrant booms in other areas of the country, further away from the cartel action, provide more compelling reasons to correlate the crime with drugs rather than illegal immigrants/workers. Combined with data about overall economic and state revenue benefits regarding illegal immigrants, it becomes very hard to argue that AZ's bullshit law is the result of anything but xenophobia/racism/etc.

Fuck it's not like this law addresses the cartel problem at all.

[Beckwin]

also, black people disproportionately commit crimes, but we finally decided that has more to do with poverty than anything else and that it'd be unamerican to profile/discriminate against all black people.

what's notable about the Wadsworth study is he looks at crime rates over time. if you look exclusively at a one-shot of a particular minority group's crime rates (in this case, a sub-group that is forced to live under the radar and largely in poverty), you'll get plenty of terrible statistics. But when you start examining over time, and in respect to population growth to determine if they're creating a notable increase in public danger/crime rates, we're not finding it. And then when you start separating cartels, things become much clearer.

But either way, as it stands, overall crime is not on the rise in Arizona, despite a 10% illegal immigrant population. If you truly want to address cartel issues, SB1070 is completely unrelated.

[Olo401]

I'm confused. Don't 100% of illegal immigrants commit at least one crime?

No. Forgetting to renew a work permit or a visa is not technically a crime, but it does make someone an illegal immigrant.

[Kuya]

Just because you are poor, does not justify committing crimes. I think that is a shitty reason, beckwin.

[Acturus]

Just because you are poor, does not justify committing crimes. I think that is a shitty reason, beckwin.

Justification and causation are not the same.

[Kuya]

Well then if poverty causes crime, then all the more reason why poverty needs to be eliminated, but since poverty will always exists, it's pretty self evident that special precautions need to be taken with poor people since they are more likely to be criminals. Alls i'm saying, just because crime is *poverty's fault* does not excuse the poor from being criminals.

[Correction]

Talking points, talking points, talking points. Who cares about facts when I can just say something enough times punctuated by 'it's common knowledge' and 'everybody knows that?'

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/25/ari...ex.html?hpt=T1

"Well, we all know that the majority of the people that are coming to Arizona and trespassing are now becoming drug mules," Brewer said. "They're coming across our borders in huge numbers. The drug cartels have taken control of the immigration.

"So they are criminals. They're breaking the law when they are trespassing and they're criminals when they pack the marijuana and the drugs on their backs."

When pressed, Brewer explained that many are simply coming to the United States to look for work but "are accosted, and they become subjects of the drug cartels."

T.J. Bonner of the National Border Patrol Council told CNN that Brewer's claims were "clearly not the case." Bonner said that some undocumented immigrants caught by border patrol agents have drugs on them, and that they sometimes blame pressure from the drug cartels.

But, he said, those claims have little credibility because drug smugglers are typically transporting much larger quantities of drugs. And besides, he said, if what Brewer said were true, there would be many more prosecutions for drug smuggling.

[Rhinox]

Bitch is trying hard not to look stupid for signing that horrible law.

She hasn't gotten the memo yet.

[Jefe]

Didn't she say like a month ago or something [w/ regards to the nazi comments] that she was "saddened" because her father died in the hands of a nazi during WWII? The kicker is that her father worked in some ammunition factory in Nevada as a supervisor. The fumes gave him cancer or some shit like that and died in California.

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.c.../06/oh_you.jpg

[Rhinox]

I guess Human rights violations is just part of Chinese DNA?

[archibaldcrane]

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bas...rt_upholds.php

Both sides calling the Supreme Court case, which strikes down much of SB 1070 but still allows "papers please" for people who have been arrested (not just suspected), a win for their side.

Basically it got gutted and they're going to have to apply "papers please" in a limited fashion in order to stay within the law.