Arizona to illegals: GTFO.

[Lucavi]

^ This guy gets it.

[archibaldcrane]

I have no problem with most of the proposed reforms - I thought Bush's immigration reform plan was really solid, but his own party sabotaged it. People act like illegal immigration should be a capital offense. Throw out some fines (making it clearly not anmesty), give a path to citizenship, whatever.

Just actually enforce the goddamn law, whatever it is.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

^ This guy gets it.

Clearly. Spiking import tariffs helped during the Great Depression, surely it will help now. If people have to start paying $10 for something they normally pay $5 for, all that left over money will get the economy rolling again.

[Lucavi]

Haha, I always enjoy your posts, Swampy.

[archibaldcrane]

Manufacturing isn't America's future. But the jobs that have to be done here, like farming and construction, could be options for uneducated Americans if the labor market wasn't so distorted by illegal labor. China has nothing to do with either of those.

[Rhinox]

Clearly. Spiking import tariffs helped during the Great Depression, surely it will help now. If people having to start paying $10 for something they normally pay $5 for, all that left over money will get the economy rolling again.

NAFTA and similar trade polices destroyed the middle class.

Profits have gone up and Worker wages have actually gone down in the last 30 years if you prorate it for inflation.

People wouldn't mind paying $10 dollars if they made $10 dollars more an hour.


Your free market polices have destroyed the middle class and increased poverty. When will you realize that Trickle down economics just doesn't work?

[Rhinox]

Manufacturing isn't America's future. But the jobs that have to be done here, like farming and construction, could be options for uneducated Americans if the labor market wasn't so distorted by illegal labor. China has nothing to do with either of those.

Manufacturing has to be apart of America's future if we want to continue to grow. its not something you should easily dismiss.


and btw Swampy. All other economic markets like South Korea, China, And Taiwan all have strict protectionist polices. all three markets are striving and growing.

[archibaldcrane]

But we can't play the "poor middle class" card and then turn a blind eye to illegal labor, especially in construction where a solid middle class life used to be able to be carved out to dedicated hardworking Americans. Wages plummet when illegal labor is an option for these jobs, and these aren't "jobs Americans won't work".

[Lucavi]

Manufacturing isn't America's future. But the jobs that have to be done here, like farming and construction, could be options for uneducated Americans if the labor market wasn't so distorted by illegal labor. China has nothing to do with either of those.

Its not all about illegal labor. The government doesn't want to compensate farmers duly for their crops anyway - how's that tied to illegal labor?

The housing market crashed, putting a shit-ton of people out of work because of citizens own shortsightedness, weak-ass laws in place for abuse from the corporate and banking sector, and an over saturation of "advice" for homeowners to "invest" in real estate.

How's that tied to illegal labor?

The journalism field is a withering husk of its former self, bled dry by years of failure to innovate by rich, elite CEOs and good ol' boys that never saw a need to get with the times, assured that what worked for over a century would still work today admist global changes.

How's that tied into illegal labor?

America isn't fucked because of illegal labor, and targeting only illegals coming into the country isn't the cure-all you think it is.

Protip: the U.S. is bleeding out skilled and unskilled labor jobs hand-over-fist. You think kicking Mexicans across the border is going to change the greedy mindsets of white CEOs?

Fucking get real.

There is a legitimate fight in illegal labor - I am not arguing that, but I will argue that focusing only on that instead of the real threat - Greed at the top and a complete lack of innovation due to greed and stupidity at the top - is the greatest threat to the American workforce.

[Rhinox]

Look I'm not disagreeing with you. But the fact remains Illegal Labor is going to be a band aid until the time as we can regain our economic standing in the world by instituting import tariffs and reform our immigration polices that disincentivize coming here legally.

[archibaldcrane]

@Lucavi You're awesome at straw men. How many times do I have to blame lack of enforcement on employers before you stop saying I want to "kick Mexicans across the border"?

Fucking get real.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Are you just spouting bullshit or are you referring to how poverty is now calculated?

And what happened when Dem's started demonizing private jets? Did CEO's quit buying them? Someone quit buying them b/c Cesna laid off 1,000 employees.

[Beckwin]

Not according to Meteora. Seems this has been trending since before the recession.

I agree, Beckwin. But it shouldn't only focus on employees or employers being prosecuted/fined/deported, should be both.

what's an easier, more effective, more humane solution: sealing miles and miles of borders and hunting down and deporting hundreds of thousands of people (harassing and even terrorizing whole communities, including citizens, while doing so), or properly regulating businesses to prevent them from hiring illegals in the first place (which would in turn lead to easier paths to legal work for immigrants, as necessitated by business demands)?

the former comes at huge costs to state and local governments, btw. I live in Flagstaff, AZ and our city supervisors and police agencies are speaking out because the bill conveniently includes no provisions for actually funding this wide-scale crackdown on hispanics, essentially forcing police to spread themselves thinner and potentially decrease their capacity to respond to and prevent more relevant crimes. not to mention incarceration problems; AZ jails are already overpopulated and it's not like once you catch an illegal they get put on a bus straight to the border right away.

[Beckwin]

also, consider this hypothetical: all illegals became legal. they no longer worked for sub-legal wages, but still might drive wages down across the board compared to previous legal norms.

do you think states like AZ, TX, etc would remain so union-unfriendly? so pro-capitalist? Not just white workers, but if current illegals could organize (absent the fear of deportation via becoming legal), you can bet your ass they would.

the "illegal" label reinforces racist views that provide a comforting distraction (us v. them, "dey tuk err jerbs") from the exploitation of labor.

maintaining the status quo for illegals and focusing efforts to remedy problems on targetting hispanic workers is quite beneficial for employers: they know that this path will not stop the flow of cheap, easily exploitable labor and it maintains the political climate that idolizes them (the employers).

[Rhinox]

Are you just spouting bullshit or are you referring to how poverty is now calculated?

And what happened when Dem's started demonizing private jets? Did CEO's quit buying them? Someone quit buying them b/c Cesna laid off 1,000 employees.

Oh god.

enlighten me how is poverty now calculated? and please post references to conservative think tanks while you're at it.

[Rhinox]

Swampy I'd like you to read this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/28/business/28wages.html


And this was before the current recession mind you.

[Lucavi]

@Lucavi You're awesome at straw men. How many times do I have to blame lack of enforcement on employers before you stop saying I want to "kick Mexicans across the border"?

Fucking get real.

I am the resident overlord of Strawman, and, as you'll eventually come to realize, my arguments are more about blaming rich white guys than making absolute points, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Xno Kappa]

This bill will be repealed instantaneously when a bored Hispanic officer in AZ pulls over a white guy and questions his citizenship. The white people will not be amused of this atrocity.

[Yugl]

yugl, bilingual education does not reduce efficiency, and other nations have avoided the gap you speak of because bilingualism is not a broad requirement for employment- that's a strawman you've posed, like much of the rest of your "argument."

First, I think you completely missed the part where I said I was presenting a view of the opponents rather than my own (Until the last few paragraphs). Second, their point is valid. Unless you increase school hours to include the second language, it's going to take away time from other classes. Even in that case, the argument is that the extra time could have been used to reinforce information from other subject areas. Third, if you recall my original post where this originated, the social impact referred to arguments by Samuel Huntington. In his article, he's explicitly referring to the a group of Hispanic pushing for a mandatory system (i.e. both Spanish and English will be required). I know you have personal problems with me, but this time it's not me you're arguing against, so I suggest you do the research and know what exactly you're responding to.

saying that bilingual education rejects other languages is flat out ridiculous, because even if it does, it must do so less than monolingual education.

Their argument is on political, not factual grounds. In other words, it's about perception and acceptance. English is already a well established language in the US, so the qualms against its widespread use it limited. However, if you add Spanish to the list, it's expected to bring up qualms from those who learned a different second language and English. It's true that an English system is less representative linguistically than a bilingual system, but the problem is political. Furthermore, studies on bilingual education have shown them to be widely unsuccessful (Information coming from Rossell, a professional at Education policy). Again, before responding to this, I would look into the opposing side's information rather than using personal experiences as a means of justifying the proponent perspective.

To give you an example of the difference between political and factual consequences, consider structural adjustment programs. They're typically loathed by the electorate in Latin American countries. In fact, some political leaders deliberately campaign against them, but end up implementing them. Why? They realize, or at least perceive, the mid-term benefits of the program. This is something that is politically opposed (Consider this bilingual education), but has potential gains if implemented (Consider this bilingual education's benefits).

[Plow]

Its not all about illegal labor. The government doesn't want to compensate farmers duly for their crops anyway - how's that tied to illegal labor?

Very directly. Successful farmers rely heavily on "illegal" labor these days, be it immigrants working the vineyards/orange groves in Cali or the guy in Kansas that has 6 kids ages 5-15 working 5-6 hours a day for free.

The housing market crashed, putting a shit-ton of people out of work because of citizens own shortsightedness, weak-ass laws in place for abuse from the corporate and banking sector, and an over saturation of "advice" for homeowners to "invest" in real estate.

How's that tied to illegal labor?

Same principle as the farmers. People can't afford to pay proper wages due to lack of business, the only way they can stay afloat is to pay half their workers under the table. I think you're focusing too much on "illegal labor" being exclusive to illegal immigrants, it's not.

Further, the housing business itself is heavily reliant upon illegal labor already... take away mass amounts of those illegal jobs, and you've got more illegals looking for more illegal work elsewhere.

The journalism field is a withering husk of its former self, bled dry by years of failure to innovate by rich, elite CEOs and good ol' boys that never saw a need to get with the times, assured that what worked for over a century would still work today admist global changes.

How's that tied into illegal labor?

I don't really know shit about the journalism "industry," so I can't address this too directly, but the camerawork, stagehands, etc. become stuck looking for shitty jobs as theirs fail, leading them into more direct competition with illegals.

America isn't fucked because of illegal labor, and targeting only illegals coming into the country isn't the cure-all you think it is.

Protip: the U.S. is bleeding out skilled and unskilled labor jobs hand-over-fist. You think kicking Mexicans across the border is going to change the greedy mindsets of white CEOs?

Fucking get real.

The problem is this: is it ok to say "well fuck it, let them have those 5 million (number completely out of my ass) jobs, since getting rid of them would only give us 1-2 million legit jobs"?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't take a genius to see that opening up a couple million jobs would make millions of people pretty happy...

There is a legitimate fight in illegal labor - I am not arguing that, but I will argue that focusing only on that instead of the real threat - Greed at the top and a complete lack of innovation due to greed and stupidity at the top - is the greatest threat to the American workforce.

You're pretty much flat out wrong, here.

The greatest threat to the American workforce is cheap labor *outside* of the U.S. We can't compete with unskilled manufacturing forces that are able and willing to work for literally pennies on the dollar.