Random Cataclysm discussion

[Eaglestrike]

For the most part only threads with adjectives starting with an R seem to last on this forum, so lets see if this sticks.

Talk about the Cata expansion as a whole, there's been a good bit of info released already, so there should be plenty room for discussion. Possibly one of the more controversial changes though:

We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

Personally, I love these changes. I don't like 25-man raids, I have a low tolerance for stupidity and just people in general. This will let me avoid some more people and I already have a decent small group of people to play with. Currently we're putting 3 nights a week into 25's and then only getting one night (if that!) to put into our 10-man, which just isn't happening. One lockout for 10's will give us up to 4 nights to work on content if we really want to get it done, sounds good to me.

[Cephius]

So the only reason to run 25s now is to get more badges and gold? Yeah, ok. No one will run 25 man raids anymore. Seems pretty stupid, I know people don't like having to get 25 people together but.. isn't that why clearing 25 man content has better loot? Because it's more difficult? Meh.

[Meresgi]

So the only reason to run 25s now is to get more badges and gold? Yeah, ok. No one will run 25 man raids anymore. Seems pretty stupid, I know people don't like having to get 25 people together but.. isn't that why clearing 25 man content has better loot? Because it's more difficult? Meh.

Well in BC they killed 40man raids in favor of 25, this expansion they tried to cater to both and now they are just going to shoot 25man raids in the foot.

Why bother getting 25ppl to sign on, know the fights, gear up and be aware when its easier to get 10 people to do the same? Less items drop in 10man? Who gives a shit since there are less people anyways.

[Cephius]

Pretty much. This is going to break a lot of guilds too who are currently based around 25 man content, who have to keep recruiting to maintain numbers. Why bother if you can just run 10s?

[Eaglestrike]

Well, they're taking the difficulty difference out of the equation. Currently 10-man stuff is tuned pretty easily whereas 25-man stuff is tuned fairly tightly. They'll be the same in Cata, so it'll just be easier in that it's easier to find 10 people than 25. But on the other hand, it's also easier to get good group composition in a 25, and tanks and healers will still want to run 25's because they'll have a good chance at getting their loot (2 tanks in 10, 2 tanks in 25, extra chance at getting your gear each fight, which do you choose?) so it's possible people will still do 25's, though yeah I'm not certain that'll work out nicely, hah.

[Cephius]

25s are also a bit more forgiving, you can lose a DPS (or three) during the course of a fight and still have enough raid DPS to kill the boss if everyone is above average. In 10s if one person dies and can't be battle rez'd it's usually a wipe (either because of mechanics or enrage timers) so how would they get around that? I wouldn't have a problem with making both share a raid lockout, but making them drop the same gear is retarded.

[Eaglestrike]

25s are also a bit more forgiving, you can lose a DPS (or three) during the course of a fight and still have enough raid DPS to kill the boss if everyone is above average. In 10s if one person dies and can't be battle rez'd it's usually a wipe (either because of mechanics or enrage timers) so how would they get around that? I wouldn't have a problem with making both share a raid lockout, but making them drop the same gear is retarded.

Actually, not really. Remember BQL? First week or two on her and any dps death meant we wiped DPS time lost on Putricide is pretty poor too.

To a point, I agree with you, but 25's are tuned a whole lot tighter than 10's currently.

[Norellicus]

Difficulty because of people density is artificial and frustrating though, not actually encounter-based challenge. Sure, the bosses hit harder and stuff, but you also have the 'ABSOLUTELY NOBODY STAND NEXT TO ANYBODY ELSE' issues and even if everyone in the group knows what they're doing individually, it's difficult to organize 25 people in a limited space (looking at you, BQ) so you don't wipe the raid. Granted, people do it all the time, but if they want to make raiding more accessible and not leave the 10-man only folks disadvantaged (as well as trying to further enable pugs), then this is the next step.

I'm all for it and personally like the idea that I won't be seeing the same bosses twice per week, once for gear the second time for progression (because let's face it, 10 mans almost universally progress faster). I've historically had more fun in 10 man groups and it just feels more rewarding in terms of effort-to-result.

[Odon]

Lmfao.

[Cephius]

Actually, not really. Remember BQL? First week or two on her and any dps death meant we wiped DPS time lost on Putricide is pretty poor too.

To a point, I agree with you, but 25's are tuned a whole lot tighter than 10's currently.

Still, we had people die/get MC'd/miss bites on high DPS and we still managed to kill at the 5 minute mark. In 10 mans if one DPS is lost or a bite is missed it's pretty much a wipe unless everyone vastly overgears the instance. If 10s were tuned to have the same difficulty as 25s, then it would be even less forgiving of a fuck up, wouldn't it?

[Eaglestrike]

We only managed to kill her after deaths/MC's/missed bites/etc. a week or two after our first kill, think we got another 5% buff at that point and I got Rena into the raid and we were able to remove like our 3 weakest players, giving us a HUGE jump in raid dps. And pretty sure I killed BQL before any % buffs came in 10 but we needed 5% to get our first 25 kill and 10% to be able to afford fuck ups.

[Dein]

Still, we had people die/get MC'd/miss bites on high DPS and we still managed to kill at the 5 minute mark. In 10 mans if one DPS is lost or a bite is missed it's pretty much a wipe unless everyone vastly overgears the instance. If 10s were tuned to have the same difficulty as 25s, then it would be even less forgiving of a fuck up, wouldn't it?

So let me try to understand what you're arguing here. You're saying that 25 man runs are more forgiving if you lose some people than 10 man runs. Inflated damage and HP of mobs aside you're pretty much admitting that 10 man runs are a bit more challenging encounter wise. Are you really trying to say that the main "challenge" of 25 man raids, to get a lot of people to pay attention and know what they need to do in a fight, is worth having an entirely different and higher tier of gear?

[Metta]

Meh.

EDIT: Ive allready got 10 people ready to get a 10man guild for cata, cuts most the trash out of the 25man guild, should be more fun/social and still get progress decently, got to see how it pans out though, if they have drops that will only drop in 25 i.e mounts etc.

[Cephius]

So let me try to understand what you're arguing here. You're saying that 25 man runs are more forgiving if you lose some people than 10 man runs. Inflated damage and HP of mobs aside you're pretty much admitting that 10 man runs are a bit more challenging encounter wise. Are you really trying to say that the main "challenge" of 25 man raids, to get a lot of people to pay attention and know what they need to do in a fight, is worth having an entirely different and higher tier of gear?

I'm not really arguing anything... I'm just confused how this is going to be balanced.

10 mans are more challenging in that you can't afford fuckups, yes, but the mechanics are usually a lot easier to deal with. Sindragosa is a joke on 10 man compared to 25 man just because of how you have to manage ice blocks. And you can't just discount the increased HP and damage of bosses, because isnt that why the gear is of a higher tier? So your tanks can survive the higher damage, your DPS can overcome the higher HP, etc? If everything is the same, wouldn't 25 mans then be more difficult yet provide the same rewards? I'm just wondering what the incentive is here to do 25 mans at all in Cataclysm. "More loot per boss" isn't gonna fly.

[Correction]

I'd still run 25s simply because it's easier to build one than a 10 man versatile enough to clear an entire raid instance.

[Metta]

I'd still run 25s simply because it's easier to build one than a 10 man versatile enough to clear an entire raid instance.

Wont matter in cata.

[Norellicus]

"More loot per boss" isn't gonna fly.

It'll fly if they boost it enough. If they go from 3 drops on 10 to 6~8 on 25, plus doubling badges and gold, I have no doubt people who already have well organized 25s will go for it.

I'll still stick to 10s personally, but yeah, I can see them being able to bribe people if they boost it up enough.

[fantasticdan]

People that were running 25s just because that's where the best loot dropped, or because 10s were just tuned too easy, will be able to run 10s if they want. The few that wish to do 25s because they actually prefer 25s will be able to do so, although it will be harder to find raids/guilds for it sure. I don't see any problem.

This also gets rid of the retarded wotlk standard of having to run the same raid twice per week just to keep up with badges.

[Correction]

Wont matter in cata.

You're basing this statement 100% on what the developers have said and 0% of the reality amongst the players I raid with. Not everyone can simply reroll to level 85 and accept their new role just because it's a better fit in the new 10 man dynamic.

[Krye]

I just wanted to hop in and let everyone know that we are reading and keeping track of questions that we will try to answer for you as we can.

That said, please keep your comments constructive. Saying "this ends it", "I don't like it", "this kills my raiding experience" or various other types of comments (including vulgar/inappropriate language in posts) are not constructive or helpful statements.

I love how Blizzard straight up says they don't value the opinions of their customers and they don't take into consideration what we want when they make changes