Random Cataclysm discussion

[Kaylia]

It will award 150vp per completion. So I might go down the ICC-era route and just spam normal queues and bum rush through it for my VP.

Unless you're geared in heroic fireland, you will probably want to do the raid to fill a few slot and get 4 pieces bonus. Well, it will always depend how good pug are

A. A 25-player group is actually easier and faster to fill than a smaller group would be, and allows for greater flexibility in raid creation, all of which will help contribute to lower queue times. Also, 25-player raids are less subject to issues with composition or player connectivity.

Kinda figured it would be the reason when they said 25m a few week ago. Two tanks for 17 dps is a much better ratio than 1 tank for 3. I suspect that we are going to wait for healer this time

[The Stig]

Unless you're geared in heroic fireland, you will probably want to do the raid to fill a few slot and get 4 pieces bonus.

Ah yes I forgot we can pick up T13 -1 in the pug raid! Doh!

(I see pug T13 as -1, normal T13 as NQ, heroic as +1)

What's the distribution of token (assuming it's token and not piece by piece) drops in 25 man anyway?

[Siniroth]

Your Power Word: Shield has a 10% chance to absorb 100% additional damage and increase the mana granted by Rapture by 100%

Change to tier sets, not gonna quote all of them cause I care little about the rest, but that is smexy

Shadow, 2P -- Shadow Word: Death deals an additional 55% damage, and reduces the damage you take from your own Shadow Word: Death when the target fails to die by 95%.

Glad they realized that needed fixing

[Norellicus]

Indeed, I had visions of clearing BoT/BwD.

Also, just re-read the Q&A:



In this case, unless I'm ultimately bored, I probably won't use it to farm my weekly VP. Dunno how many wings there will be but if 8 bosses ... assuming 3-4 wings, might be hard to go through it all.

On the plus side, being able to experience a disabled Deathwing seems fun if we can't reach it in Normal mode fast enough (people in my guild are quitting because Star Wars/Diablo 3 is coming out soon).

Also if no one was aware, the dungeon finder now slots all dungeons into 1 category, and there will be a seperate category for the 3 (4?) new ones.

It will award 150vp per completion. So I might go down the ICC-era route and just spam normal queues and bum rush through it for my VP.

Two wings, 4 bosses each.

And if all dungeons are being slotted into the same category, does that mean that random dungeon will plop you in ZG/ZA as well?

[The Stig]

Two wings, 4 bosses each.

And if all dungeons are being slotted into the same category, does that mean that random dungeon will plop you in ZG/ZA as well?

I lost the topic where I read it now, but I assume it'll be similar to the ICC-era thing where if you're below X-ilvl it will not dump you in ZG/ZA, but otherwise if you've exceeded all ilvl requirements, then they will also get added into the pool.

But ultimately this means we will not need to grind trolls over and over on alts for VP.

So to answer the question, yes. PTR users were going to the "manual dungeon" queue and found the trolls to be lumped under "heroic dungeons"

only the 3 (4?) new ones are in its own category, but they also fall in the heroic dungeon category should you choose to queue 100% random.

[Meresgi]

So where is the DK Tier 13? I havn't seen any datamined images or official shots, and it's kind of curious since they are showing videos of new spell effects and stuff now, like they just skipped over DKs lol.

[Katlan]

Unless you're geared in heroic fireland, you will probably want to do the raid to fill a few slot and get 4 pieces bonus. Well, it will always depend how good pug are

Since when do you need to have HM gear to do the next normal tier of content? Unless Blizz is doing a new retarded system this has never been the case. LFR tool will be for casuals and those bored. No point in doing it if you have a competent raid guild group since you will be learning the bosses the correct way while getting better ilv.

LFR seems like a waste of time. not worth the time investment to get VP, can't spam bosses for loot... have to deal w/ tons of pugs who will prolly be in greens and PvP gear to supplement ilv. Its bad enough doing LFD w/ some pugs since they always seem to be terrible and doing under 12k dps w/ the 15% buff. can't wait to see how terrible this will be

[Correction]

Won't LFR have votekicking? If you have a sufficiently large group assembled LFR will hasten the process of filling the last 3-4 slots with eligible players and if they slow you down (and they're DPS) you can kick them and 22-24 man the trash while you replace them.

I could definitely see anything over 10 PUGs being a serious waste of time in any raid environment, but LFR being a niche thing doesn't make it bad.

[Diamicles]

Paladin (Forums / Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)

Retribution, 2P -- Your Judgement ability now also generates 1 Holy Power.
Retribution, 4P -- While Zealotry is active your abilities deal 12% more damage.

late to the party but OH GOD YES PLEASE

[Katlan]

Won't LFR have votekicking? If you have a sufficiently large group assembled LFR will hasten the process of filling the last 3-4 slots with eligible players and if they slow you down (and they're DPS) you can kick them and 22-24 man the trash while you replace them.

I could definitely see anything over 10 PUGs being a serious waste of time in any raid environment, but LFR being a niche thing doesn't make it bad.

Vote kicking will have the same design as the LFD tool. I'm very generous towards pugs in LFD and don't hastily kick ppl. but when they are failing left and right,can't do over 12k on a boss (in 353+ gear or worse), and making an instance painful... I will kick them. And I still often have a cooldown on my vote kick feature. w/LFR tool having so many extra people I can only imagine it being worse.

Add in having it be a bigger pita to use vent or always inviting random ppl into your vent.. and the "leader" feature prolly being a joke since getting 15-20+ random ppl to listen to one person they have never seen before, just because that person has a leader icon, prolly won't readily happen. Also, whether you server PuG a raid or whatnot, the leader usually lays out loot rules and stuff to make sure nobody is walking away w/ tons of gear while others, who may also be able to use it, walk away w/ nothing. What's is going to stop ppl from needing on anything they "can use?"

I believe the only way the LFR tool will succeed is if the content is really trivialized to be even more faceroll then T11 currently is. But I see these taking huge amounts of time needing to type fight mechanics every time you do it since there will always be people not knowing what to do. Even needing to explain each fight on vent to ppl who are new, ect... takes a lot of time. And making it so you can only get loot from once boss per week, regardless of how many times you do it in LFR, means your gonna be competing against a LARGE pool of players, who will prolly roll on everything they can use, for once shot per week.

Don't get me wrong, LFR will have a place for some ppl. I just don't have anything positive to say about it and their loot/VP decisions just kinda tie the knot. It just seems like a nightmare to any competent player and the time sink is gonna be extreme [for WoW]

[FailureMidgard]

Vote kicking will have the same design as the LFD tool. I'm very generous towards pugs in LFD and don't hastily kick ppl. but when they are failing left and right,can't do over 12k on a boss (in 353+ gear or worse), and making an instance painful... I will kick them. And I still often have a cooldown on my vote kick feature. w/LFR tool having so many extra people I can only imagine it being worse.

Add in having it be a bigger pita to use vent or always inviting random ppl into your vent.. and the "leader" feature prolly being a joke since getting 15-20+ random ppl to listen to one person they have never seen before, just because that person has a leader icon, prolly won't readily happen. Also, whether you server PuG a raid or whatnot, the leader usually lays out loot rules and stuff to make sure nobody is walking away w/ tons of gear while others, who may also be able to use it, walk away w/ nothing. What's is going to stop ppl from needing on anything they "can use?"

I believe the only way the LFR tool will succeed is if the content is really trivialized to be even more faceroll then T11 currently is. But I see these taking huge amounts of time needing to type fight mechanics every time you do it since there will always be people not knowing what to do. Even needing to explain each fight on vent to ppl who are new, ect... takes a lot of time. And making it so you can only get loot from once boss per week, regardless of how many times you do it in LFR, means your gonna be competing against a LARGE pool of players, who will prolly roll on everything they can use, for once shot per week.

Don't get me wrong, LFR will have a place for some ppl. I just don't have anything positive to say about it and their loot/VP decisions just kinda tie the knot. It just seems like a nightmare to any competent player and the time sink is gonna be extreme [for WoW]

I agree, sounds awful. They just need to change boss mechanics to do 0 dmg, but when you get hit by an avoidable mechanic, you get a demerit point. When the boss dies you take a penalty to your loot roll equal to your demerit pts and the VP reward is lowered by like 2x your demerit pts!

That way, bads only hurt themselves...they obviously can't make any mechanics dmging enough to matter, or the entire tool will be a colossal failure.

[Kaylia]

Since when do you need to have HM gear to do the next normal tier of content? Unless Blizz is doing a new retarded system this has never been the case. LFR tool will be for casuals and those bored. No point in doing it if you have a competent raid guild group since you will be learning the bosses the correct way while getting better ilv.

What? Are you asking if it's a "requirement" or if it "help"? Obviously, you don't need heroic from the last tier, but it's not like you will replace every slot in one week. If you plan to kill Deathwing on your first week, and farm Heroic Dragon Soul the second week, you will need all the gears you can have from the current tier.


And like I said in my last post, the LFR tool is probably going to be inbetween Normal and Heroic Fireland. Players who aren't geared entirely in Heroic Fireland will probably be able to find a few pieces that could last them a while depending of their luck.

I agree, sounds awful. They just need to change boss mechanics to do 0 dmg, but when you get hit by an avoidable mechanic, you get a demerit point. When the boss dies you take a penalty to your loot roll equal to your demerit pts and the VP reward is lowered by like 2x your demerit pts!

That way, bads only hurt themselves...they obviously can't make any mechanics dmging enough to matter, or the entire tool will be a colossal failure.

Too bad it would be a bitch to implement, because the concept would be awesome.

Personally, I'm still not worried about LFR. It might be horrible the first week or two, but all around, my experience with pug is really not that bad. Sure, it's probably going to require a lot of hand holding, more than some player are willing to do, but as long the mechanics are forgiving (nobody can wipe the raid on their own), it shouldn't be that hard.

[Katlan]

I wish I had better experience w/ PuGs. I just have terrible luck and 75% of them are terrible and leave me w/ a bad taste in my mouth

[Kaylia]

75% are terrible. That's where the hand holding come to play.

[FailureMidgard]

Too bad it would be a bitch to implement, because the concept would be awesome.

Personally, I'm still not worried about LFR. It might be horrible the first week or two, but all around, my experience with pug is really not that bad. Sure, it's probably going to require a lot of hand holding, more than some player are willing to do, but as long the mechanics are forgiving (nobody can wipe the raid on their own), it shouldn't be that hard.

Wiping the raid is a really hard thing to define though. What's a reasonable DPS requirement per person for a boss? If 2 DPS die to a mechanic and you fail the enrage timer with your average pug dps, 1-2 people did wipe the raid. Domo transition mechanics have to be entirely removed...the idea of spreading on time (without Vent) pretty much has to be removed. I dunno, I just feel like it's either going to have an insanely poor success rate, or it's going to be like fighting a target dummy. Maybe I should give pug more benefit of the doubt, and I'm 100% sure -some- pugs will kill it, but I think overall it will be more failures than successes?

[Katlan]

No, I agree. Even Cho'gall and Counsel who have been nerfed into Oblivion.

Counsel: Imagine trying to break up a PuG raid to split dps & getting everyone to understand to stop when one is pushed too much ahead of the other.. then the 2nd phase tornado/gravity mechanics.

Cho'gall: getting ppl to know where to stand and to interrupt and to handle adds. It's a lot of communication to need to handle, especially w/o vent. I mean I'm sure some ppl will use vent, but I wouldn't want to invite random after random into vent and listen to random ppl be immature (granted that can happen w/ Server PuG's also, but you get to be picky in selecting your ppl).

And then there comes the e-peen of some saying one way to kill the boss is better then another and arguments start and some think they can lead better then others. then somebody being super emo that somebody rolled need on something for their offspec. People bailing the raid on the 2nd to last boss because its impossible to kill him w/who you have after being in that PuG for 5 hours.. but then having to redoing the entire thing to get a shot at the 2nd to last boss again during that week, only difference is this time you can't roll on loot from any previous bosses.

I think it's a noble idea they are trying, but I don't think they actually realize how bad the average the PuG player is and how much insulting / arguments / bitching goes on when nobody cares about the other ppl since not on same server/guild/ect...

[Norellicus]

Let's not forget that the WoW client has a built in voice chat client, theoretically that's the intended method of communication here.

[The Stig]

If the bosses are going to be gimped, then I expect only 1 or 2 mechanics per boss, nearly similar to maybe Lord Marrowgar. Anything more than that though ... yikes, enough for a rag tag bunch of misfits to understand and down it. Remember, it is, afterall, casual and designed for people who are not likely to see Deathwing until maybe the next patch.

I can imagine there being a 30% (or more) buff too to compensate for everything.

[Kaylia]

Wiping the raid is a really hard thing to define though. What's a reasonable DPS requirement per person for a boss? If 2 DPS die to a mechanic and you fail the enrage timer with your average pug dps, 1-2 people did wipe the raid. Domo transition mechanics have to be entirely removed...the idea of spreading on time (without Vent) pretty much has to be removed. I dunno, I just feel like it's either going to have an insanely poor success rate, or it's going to be like fighting a target dummy. Maybe I should give pug more benefit of the doubt, and I'm 100% sure -some- pugs will kill it, but I think overall it will be more failures than successes?

It's hard to say anything right now since we don't know the difficulty (similar to BH level and nerfed fireland/BWD, harder, easier?), but PuG should adapt. If vent is a requirement, I think it will become common usage in these group, or people might even use the integrated voice chat like someone else said. That's what group were doing in LoTRO even if it sucked. You seriously don't need that many cue in most fight.



As for mechanics wiping the raid, I'm talking about stuff like Domo debuff exploding on everyone, or somebody stepping on a trap killing everyone. If the enrage timer aren't bad, and you are allowed to lose a few dps, it shouldn't be terrible

[Kaylia]

I'm not sure I like the new looting rules. While it will prevent some annoying ninja looting, I won't be able to queue as a tanks to gear my dps offspec, because the odd of winning will be significantly lower.

I don't care about queue time that much, but I would rather seek on my class the is the best geared than go with something gimped.