Random Cataclysm discussion

[FailureMidgard]

Again, I'm going to disagree based on the experience I had. 1% wipes are way less common than a fluke death (much more frustrating though), and even then, surviving 2-3 seconds longer is probably going to make up for the loss of dps. It's something to consider too.

What's this have to do with 1% wipes? My point is when a DPS dies, healing gets easier, not harder, and your extra dodge doesn't help. It has nothing to do with 1% wipes, but if you want to go over what helps more after a DPS dies, it's not dodge/parry.

Also, 10% avoidance is going to make a difference during the whole fight, unlike your dps that only make a difference in the last few seconds. I understand that you deny its usefulness based on your experience, but I have the feeling that if tanks were able to mitigate every non-raid damage, it would be for the best (even on roll-face content). I don't understand why you wouldn't strive for this when you have a choice.

Makes a difference how? I'm unsure if you're aware of this, but tanks die more often due to dodge streaks than lack of dodge streaks. If you take every hit for 30sec, your healers are spamming into you the entire time. When you dodge every hit for 30 sec, your healers start to slack off, then when you take a string of hits, heals are slower coming to you. I promise you this is the case and has been since vanilla wow. Also, mana is -not- an issue, during low damage times, it does not matter one bit how many times you dodge, I'm sorry. Dodging less reduces overheal, and all around just doesn't affect anything except during high damage spike phases (as I discussed last post). The fact you even mention this just makes me think you have no actual understanding of how healing even works in WoW atm. Also, how does DPS only matter in the last few seconds? DPS lets you keep up on Rhyolith and not fall behind. When you are even 2-3 seconds slow killing the spark, either you pull it across people and do immolate dmg to the raid, or fragments go and instantly gib your healer. Where do you get these ideas that DPS matters during the last few seconds?

And lastly, this 10% avoidance is added on top of the ~35%. Yes, it's 10% more than the raw mitigation, but it's much more than that when you compare it to what you would be taking when you're deciding between 2 sets. Dodging 15% more Decimation blade, Rag's debuff, Shannox's debuff...it definitively help.

Shannox's debuff is not dodgeable, nor is the attack that causes it.
Rag's debuff is not dogeable, and in fact Rag has to land a melee hit on his target to reset who is getting stacks. Dodge/Parry strings right after a taunt transition cause your co-tank to continue to get stacks while you're dodging. Either way, if you actually look at logs, there is 0 correlation between # of hits taken and # of applications of Burning Wound.
Decimation Blade...sure, and it kinda mattered before the nerf. Now, he only swings twice on 10man, and it's entirely irrelevant. Also, between LoHs and DG and whatnot, it's irrelevant if you dodge anyway (kinda the point I'm making).

Balerog's Shard and Rageface's facerage are the situations I had in mind. Both are predictable and happen where I'm not particularly in danger. HoS is going to see more use when you're not tanking , but this situation is irrelevant to the argument

If you're using it on facerage, you must not have a single good DPS. I PWS people as soon as he starts leaping and it doesn't even use the absorb shield most the time. I'm not really sure how you're making use of Sac on that. It's funny if you think dodge helps you use Sac on Baleroc shards, seeing as you have like 2million HP and are taking like 50k dmg and your healers are critting heals for 800k.

[Kaylia]

And which part confuse you? If your parry/dodge is at 35% and you have to pick between +10%dodge or +12% damage, you have to consider how much more damage you're going to take with that 35%.

Adding 10% mitigation to 35% is going to be a 15% damage reduction before the reduction from block.


And my point was concerning abilities that are only avoided by a parry/dodge, and not block. .

[Kaylia]

Makes a difference how? I'm unsure if you're aware of this, but tanks die more often due to dodge streaks than lack of dodge streaks. If you take every hit for 30sec, your healers are spamming into you the entire time. When you dodge every hit for 30 sec, your healers start to slack off, then when you take a string of hits, heals are slower coming to you.

It's fucking ridiculous. You were saying not too long ago that tanks die so slow that you can slack off, and now, you are saying that if you slack, the tank might get insta jibbed. Can you contradict yourself more.

Shannox's debuff is not dodgeable, nor is the attack that causes it.

The dog's buff is definitively dodgeable, and Ragnaros..is it resist that cause it to not proc sometime, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't land every single time? Or maybe it just irregularly applies them like you said, in which case, my bad. Ragnaros wasn't a good example for stacking debuff.

Decimation Blade...sure, and it kinda mattered before the nerf. Now, he only swings twice on 10man, and it's entirely irrelevant. Also, between LoHs and DG and whatnot, it's irrelevant if you dodge anyway (kinda the point I'm making).

Lay on Hand use your base hp, GotAK doesnt work. AD is your only ability.

If you're using it on facerage, you must not have a single good DPS. I PWS people as soon as he starts leaping and it doesn't even use the absorb shield most the time. I'm not really sure how you're making use of Sac on that. It's funny if you think dodge helps you use Sac on Baleroc shards, seeing as you have like 2million HP and are taking like 50k dmg and your healers are critting heals for 800k.

Like I said, having this argument with you is impossible because according to you, nothing bad ever happen. Everything always work out perfectly, and nobody ever die.

What's this have to do with 1% wipes? My point is when a DPS dies, healing gets easier, not harder, and your extra dodge doesn't help. It has nothing to do with 1% wipes, but if you want to go over what helps more after a DPS dies, it's not dodge/parry.

Because increasing your dps doesn't offer another benefit than ending the fight slightly faster, and that alone mean nothing in a situation where you wouldn't wipe?

If you're trying to beat a time record or w/e, then obviously, increasing your dps is a good idea, but generally, finishing the fight in 6min or 6min and 10 seconds isn't going to change a shit.

[FailureMidgard]

And my point was concerning abilities that are only avoided by a parry/dodge, and not block. .

"Shannox's debuff is not dodgeable, nor is the attack that causes it."

What part of this is confusing? 100% dodge will result in the same # of stacks, as the attack is NOT DODGEABLE.
Arcing Slash is the ability that applies the DoT from Shannox. You can look at any WoL report, you will never see a dodge or parry of it. Here's our bear from last week with ~50% dodge+miss rate:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z.../spell/101202/

Feel free to find a log with an arcing slash miss.

You apparently missed everything on how the Rag DoT works too, but it's a similar boat except DODGING MAKES IT STACK HIGHER. Dodge is actually bad in a way....reread my last post...

[Kaylia]

ou apparently missed everything on how the Rag DoT works too, but it's a similar boat except DODGING MAKES IT STACK HIGHER. Dodge is actually bad in a way....reread my last post...

I did, and its the worst argument you made tonight. Bad enough to stop wasting my time on this argument.

[FailureMidgard]

It's fucking ridiculous. You were saying not too long ago that tanks die so slow that you can slack off, and now, you are saying that if you slack, the tank might get insta jibbed. Can you contradict yourself more

...Yes, damage is so low I can do it safely now, but it can be risky. How is this a contradiction? Damage is not quite low enough that I can afk the entire fight, sorry to say. Yes, I can tab out and say a thing or 2 on aim, yes when I'm actively not healing people are at more risk.

The dog's buff is definitively dodgeable, and Ragnaros..is it resist that cause it to not proc sometime, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't land every single time? Or maybe it just irregularly applies them like you said, in which case, my bad. Ragnaros wasn't a good example for stacking debuff.

Dog's debuff is not dodgeable, please show me a WoL parse with it being dodged or parried.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...2/spell/99832/
Here is ours from last week of it not being dodged/parried, and it remains as such for the past 10+ weeks in FL.

Lay on Hand use your base hp, only useful early. DG doesnt work. AD is your only ability.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=9249&e=9575

I guess this guy has 600k base HP. I meant AD when I said DG I think, whatever the "don't die" thing is.

[Kaylia]

...Yes, damage is so low I can do it safely now, but it can be risky. How is this a contradiction? Damage is not quite low enough that I can afk the entire fight, sorry to say. Yes, I can tab out and say a thing or 2 on aim, yes when I'm actively not healing people are at more risk.

And that's why I'm going to use more fucking mitigation to make up for healers who have ADD.

[FailureMidgard]

I did, and its the worst argument you made tonight. Bad enough to stop wasting my time on this argument.

It isn't an argument. It's a fact. When you have tank A tanking Rag, then tank B taunts, tank A will continue to get stacks as long as tank B dodges. It's really easy to see, and you must be quite not perceptive if you've never seen a stack hit the "Wrong" tank...it happens a lot, and I'm telling you -exactly- what causes it now. If you dodge 10x in a row, the stacks will continue on tank A for that entire duration.

[Kaylia]

The dog's buff is definitively dodgeable

Dog's debuff is not dodgeable

Read.

I guess this guy has 600k base HP. I meant AD when I said DG I think, whatever the "don't die" thing is.

That's Ardent Defender. DG is divine guardian (raid cd).

It isn't an argument. It's a fact. When you have tank A tanking Rag, then tank B taunts, tank A will continue to get stacks as long as tank B dodges. It's really easy to see, and you must be quite not perceptive if you've never seen a stack hit the "Wrong" tank...it happens a lot, and I'm telling you -exactly- what causes it now. If you dodge 10x in a row, the stacks will continue on tank A for that entire duration.

Landing the debuff on the wrong tank isnt quite an issue however if the other tank is dodging everything. There is still going to be less damage all around.

And it never happened for more than 1 hit, and because of that, I thought his target was picked when a debuff land rather than when it strike the target.

[FailureMidgard]

And that's why I'm going to use more fucking mitigation to make up for healers who have ADD.

Chicken. Egg.

[FailureMidgard]

Read.

...oh, the buff that auto resets every spear throw that isn't even an issue. My bad, I assumed that was a typo/mistake.

[Kaylia]

that isn't even an issue.

What is? Who ever wiped in WoW.

[Kaylia]

Chicken. Egg.

Definitively egg.

[aurik]

We 3-heal shannox because then the dps can fuck up on rageface up to about 80+ stacks before people start dying

[FailureMidgard]

We 3-heal shannox because then the dps can fuck up on rageface up to about 80+ stacks before people start dying

If you 1heal, it's actually not possible to hit 80 stacks!

[bori]

Reading Fail's arguments is so entertaining.

[BadKarma]

New dungeons are MILES ahead of anything in cata so far.

[Kaylia]

New dungeons are MILES ahead of anything in cata so far.

The fight? The story? The environment? Maybe it's just the pictures but what I saw looked a little plain so far.

[Mortilox]

I wouldn't say miles, but a bit ahead of zg/za fo sure. That Murozond(sp) in end time was a fun boss, really liked that.

[BadKarma]

I wouldn't say miles, but a bit ahead of zg/za fo sure. That Murozond(sp) in end time was a fun boss, really liked that.

The mannoroth fight is intense and the environment and story, especially in WoE are amazing. Seeing young Malfurion and Illidan is pretty awesome.