Random Cataclysm discussion

[Eaglestrike]

So now that they have killed the AA system, basically aren't adding any new talents, and pushing back dungeons that were planned for launch, what are they keeping?

They're pushing back a couple nostalgia-driven heroic redos of dungeons, there are still going to be a full line-up of new heroics. I don't see how this is a big point to complain on, would you rather they spend time tuning heroic Deadmines than giving you an actually brand new dungeon?

[Jodwahh]

LEVEL 85!

[The Blackrose]

LEVEL 85!

http://www.zuguide.com/image/Steve-C...Burgundy.7.jpg

[ringthree]

They're pushing back a couple nostalgia-driven heroic redos of dungeons, there are still going to be a full line-up of new heroics. I don't see how this is a big point to complain on, would you rather they spend time tuning heroic Deadmines than giving you an actually brand new dungeon?

While I may be mistaken here, I think the only 5-man at release at this point is Skywall and that was just announced (I have read conflicting information on this).

You missed the major issue, which is that they have scrapped Path of the Titans. That fact, combined with the fact that so far the talent tree changes appear to be rather minimal, it looks like there really isn't much "new" in this expansion besides Goblins and Worgen. The Path of Titans was supposed to be the substitute for not adding any new tiers of talents, but it looks like each tree is just getting a couple new/reworked talents and that's it.

Yes, I know they are redoing the world, but even that looks like it is having issues. Why "destroy" the park in Stormwind? Is it because of the "lore" aspect, or because they realized it would take too long to get right?

Blizzard's normal response to when they are releasing things is always "it's ready when it's ready", but this looks more like they have been adding under their breath "and if it's not ready in time, we will just scrap it".

[Eaglestrike]

While I may be mistaken here, I think the only 5-man at release at this point is Skywall and that was just announced (I have read conflicting information on this).

You missed the major issue, which is that they have scrapped Path of the Titans. That fact, combined with the fact that so far the talent tree changes appear to be rather minimal, it looks like there really isn't much "new" in this expansion besides Goblins and Worgen. The Path of Titans was supposed to be the substitute for not adding any new tiers of talents, but it looks like each tree is just getting a couple new/reworked talents and that's it.

Yes, I know they are redoing the world, but even that looks like it is having issues. Why "destroy" the park in Stormwind? Is it because of the "lore" aspect, or because they realized it would take too long to get right?

Blizzard's normal response to when they are releasing things is always "it's ready when it's ready", but this looks more like they have been adding under their breath "and if it's not ready in time, we will just scrap it".

You think that they destroyed a part of Stormwind, leaving it in ruins, because that's somehow easier to develop than the park they already fucking had there? It's EXTRA WORK to show it in ruins because they already had the park there. That point is stupid.

We already discussed this, classes are still getting a good number of changes. Druids as a class have 6 new abilities currently in the expansion, which is on-par with most other expansions. To think there aren't going to be any changes is stupid. Only shamans atm have trees still very similar to how they were, priests have a large number of changes in all 3 trees and so do druids. Only energy-based classes are not having an overhaul on their resource system, that'll make everything seem quite different.

And maybe this is NDA breaking but I really don't think so, but there are currently 2 5-mans out, and neither one is Skywall, they're going to have dungeons out bud.

[ringthree]

Preface: I know you are a WoW fan boi. I play the game too, but I am not a loyalist. Just remember that criticism isn't always bad. Ghostcrawler dislikes sycophants and much as he dislikes trolls.

You think that they destroyed a part of Stormwind, leaving it in ruins, because that's somehow easier to develop than the park they already fucking had there? It's EXTRA WORK to show it in ruins because they already had the park there. That point is stupid.

Have you seen the game geometry for Stormwind as it exists now? It would be pretty complicated to redo the entire area. It would be much easier to just make new ruins than add rooftops and the tight geometry of the park that people would have to be able to fly into and out of. Do you even understand WHY they had to rework everything to allow flying on the main continents?

To prove my point I will ask you the correlative question: Why DID Blizzard destroy the park? Do you really think it was because of lore reasons? If so, I will just stop responding to you...

We already discussed this, classes are still getting a good number of changes. Druids as a class have 6 new abilities currently in the expansion, which is on-par with most other expansions. To think there aren't going to be any changes is stupid. Only shamans atm have trees still very similar to how they were, priests have a large number of changes in all 3 trees and so do druids. Only energy-based classes are not having an overhaul on their resource system, that'll make everything seem quite different.

A good number of changes? Compared to what? FFXI? Compared to Wrath, of the redone talent trees so far there are basically just a few reworks and most talents are just tweeks. There are definitely a few new talents, but that begs the question. I guess this is just a difference in perception, but compared to Wrath AND compared to what they promised, this doesn't look like much.

And maybe this is NDA breaking but I really don't think so, but there are currently 2 5-mans out, and neither one is Skywall, they're going to have dungeons out bud.

I am not your bud, pal.

If there are currently 2 5-mans, then consider the fact that there were supposed to be 4. Anyway you cut it, this was a bad weekend with a good spin. Hey, Bliz doesn't want to give you things that aren't going to be fun right? Right?

[Cephius]

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...by_mooh438.jpg

Seriously this is totally the first time Blizzard has trimmed a product prior to launch. Does anyone even remember when Wrath came out? Half the shit in the beta never made it to live and people screamed bloody murder. Lo and behold, the expansion turned out well enough.

[Eaglestrike]

Have you seen the game geometry for Stormwind as it exists now? It would be pretty complicated to redo the entire area. It would be much easier to just make new ruins than add rooftops and the tight geometry of the park that people would have to be able to fly into and out of. Do you even understand WHY they had to rework everything to allow flying on the main continents?

You really think that cutting out a chunk of Stormwind at the coast is easier than just keeping the buildings that are already there, there?

To prove my point I will ask you the correlative question: Why DID Blizzard destroy the park? Do you really think it was because of lore reasons? If so, I will just stop responding to you...

To show destruction upon a main city that riles up a people to war? Sure sounds like it's an improvement upon what they did for the wrath launch, which was just a little event with no actual in-game consequences once it was over. Do you really think that makes no sense or doesn't fit? lol

A good number of changes? Compared to what? FFXI? Compared to Wrath, of the redone talent trees so far there are basically just a few reworks and most talents are just tweeks. There are definitely a few new talents, but that begs the question. I guess this is just a difference in perception, but compared to Wrath AND compared to what they promised, this doesn't look like much.

Considering they obviously still haven't changed a bunch of things that they are going to and they already have 6 new spells for druids (who already had a lot of spells/abilities) and the healer with the biggest toolbox is getting even more abilities, I do believe there's plenty of changes coming. The trees don't need to be changed drastically every expansion, in fact it's best if they AREN'T because complete makeovers means you're doing something very wrong.

I am not your bud, pal.

If there are currently 2 5-mans, then consider the fact that there were supposed to be 4. Anyway you cut it, this was a bad weekend with a good spin. Hey, Bliz doesn't want to give you things that aren't going to be fun right? Right?

Cap is currently 82, not a whole lot is out, 2 are out because that's all there is for that level (I believe). There's still a loooooooooooooooot coming and it's very obvious it is.

[Tonko]

Cephius is right. It's lol worthy watching many of you freak out. Just chill, enjoy the game, and wait for what is coming, instead of spazzing out over what you think is coming.

[Siniroth]

I wish they weren't changing the DK system, I wont judge it yet since there's no information out on it

What more information do you want? Only one of each rune comes off cooldown at a time, I thought this had been covered in quite enough detail already

[Dakk-Siren]

The entire reason for the rune change is that it is nearly impossible to add any new abilities to DK with how it is now. Our specs have very little free gcds and using a rp ability when its possible to use a rune ability(w/o capping RP which if its capped your most likely doing it wrong, or your resto druid is doing it right) is a dps loss. By halving the amount of rune abilities we do it opens up a lot of options for them to add more abilities in the future. Only problem I can see, which will change, is that if rp generation stays the same DK will be very boring.


anyway, what I find more interesting is the removal of path of the titans. To me it seemed that was instead of adding new talents, but with it's removal seems like all we are getting is something like reduced cooldown on shield walls, or some boring shit like that with median glyphs.

[ringthree]

You really think that cutting out a chunk of Stormwind at the coast is easier than just keeping the buildings that are already there, there?

To show destruction upon a main city that riles up a people to war? Sure sounds like it's an improvement upon what they did for the wrath launch, which was just a little event with no actual in-game consequences once it was over. Do you really think that makes no sense or doesn't fit? lol

Have you seen the Park in a game model viewer? It would be pretty complicated to have to remake that entire area so that it was 100% 3D and could accommodate flying mounts. A much more simple solution is just to destroy the area and claim there is a "lore" related issue.

If it is a lore related reason, why didn't Deathwing take it's anger out on Orgrimmar too? Why didn't Deathwing just destroy ALL of Stormwind instead of just one area where they stuck Onyxia's head? Why didn't Deathwing destroy the main entrance bridge?

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it doesn't fit lore-wise. It only makes sense development-wise and they just went back and added a weak lore explanation.

Considering they obviously still haven't changed a bunch of things that they are going to and they already have 6 new spells for druids (who already had a lot of spells/abilities) and the healer with the biggest toolbox is getting even more abilities, I do believe there's plenty of changes coming. The trees don't need to be changed drastically every expansion, in fact it's best if they AREN'T because complete makeovers means you're doing something very wrong.

I am not going to get much into this one, because you already think the game is pretty much perfect as it is, so there really isn't much I can say to convince you otherwise.

I will say that when you promise something as "big" as Path of the Titans because it is supposed to supplant the "normal" new talents you get with an expansion, then if you just cut it out and don't replace it with anything then people are going to wonder what is going on.

And to answer your question ahead of time: No, medium glyphs are nothing close to what they promised with Path of the Titans.

[Eaglestrike]

Have you seen the Park in a game model viewer? It would be pretty complicated to have to remake that entire area so that it was 100% 3D and could accommodate flying mounts. A much more simple solution is just to destroy the area and claim there is a "lore" related issue.

If it is a lore related reason, why didn't Deathwing take it's anger out on Orgrimmar too? Why didn't Deathwing just destroy ALL of Stormwind instead of just one area where they stuck Onyxia's head? Why didn't Deathwing destroy the main entrance bridge?

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it doesn't fit lore-wise. It only makes sense development-wise and they just went back and added a weak lore explanation.

Have you seen orgimmar? It's completely rebuilt. Boy I wonder if they did all this rebuilding because it was destroyed? No, no, that makes FAR too much sense! Obviously Blizzard is lazy!

Think of this scenario: Deathwing comes to take back the heads of Nef/Ony, he destroys a section of the city to cause guards to all move to that part of it and begin reducing damage intake. He uses that diversion to pickup two big ass dragon heads and fly off. Not exactly room left to do a whole lot of fighting carrying those things. Deathwing's priority is (most likely) to get his offspring back, so he goes to rez them first. It's also possible Deathwing is somewhat weakened from doing whatever caused the cataclysm so he's not at full power when he goes to take the heads back.

I am not going to get much into this one, because you already think the game is pretty much perfect as it is, so there really isn't much I can say to convince you otherwise.

I will say that when you promise something as "big" as Path of the Titans because it is supposed to supplant the "normal" new talents you get with an expansion, then if you just cut it out and don't replace it with anything then people are going to wonder what is going on.

And to answer your question ahead of time: No, medium glyphs are nothing close to what they promised with Path of the Titans.

Path of the Titans looked bad. It was something they might have been able to work but would've caused 10x more issues. It did look interesting, but it looked far too difficult to balance and would've had 100x more crying than "thank you" though I guess that's normal.

[Norellicus]

If it is a lore related reason, why didn't Deathwing take it's anger out on Orgrimmar too?

Geography lesson:



Really, it shouldn't be that surprising that he didn't bother with Org.

I don't know why he didn't just thrash stormwind myself, maybe they didn't want to have to reprogram people's habits after 4 years of playing and knowing where the vendors and such are?

[ringthree]

Geography lesson:

Really, it shouldn't be that surprising that he didn't bother with Org.

I don't know why he didn't just thrash stormwind myself, maybe they didn't want to have to reprogram people's habits after 4 years of playing and knowing where the vendors and such are?

Blizzard's lore reasoning for destroying the park is that it is where Onyxia's head was posted on a stake. Onyxia's head was also posted on a stake in Orgrimmar. I don't think Deathwing bursted through Deepholm, out of the Maelstrom, and then said to himself "Well, I don't have a lot of time, so I will just go to the closest city that stuck my chick's head on a pike."

There is no reason that Deathwing would prefer Stormwind over Orgrimmar. There is no reason that Deathwing wouldn't just fuck up all of Stormwind. Geography had nothing to do with this.

What likely happened is that when Blizzard was redoing Stormwind to make it three dimensional, they said to themselves "Well fuck, the park doesn't fit with the rest of the terrain without having to fuck up the entire geometry of Stormwind. Well, since we are destroying everything else, we can just destroy this too to make it fit."

It's Dues Ex Deathwingina. Or Deathwingus Ex Machina? The point is that it is a lore shortcut to explain a technical issue. Nothing more.

Just as a point of clarification: Blizzard has changed the point that Deathwing is going to emerge several times. I believe it was first supposed to be Blackrock Mountain, then it was Grim Batol (on the same continent as Stormwind, but still much further away) but now it is out of the Maelstrom. I think this might be causing a bit of the confusion here.

[The Blackrose]

Blizzard's lore reasoning for destroying the park is that it is where Onyxia's head was posted on a stake. Onyxia's head was also posted on a stake in Orgrimmar... There is no reason that Deathwing would prefer Stormwind over Orgrimmar.

Assuming they're following the comics as established canon, Varian was the killer of Onyxia. So everything adds up, except... for the Park. Why not the entrance to the keep, or the entrance of Stormwind itself? Hang Onyxia's head there as a message, "Here, dragons be fucked?" I bet that pissed off the hippies when they saw a fresh cut dragon head over their immaculate turf.

[ringthree]

Assuming they're following the comics as established canon, Varian was the killer of Onyxia. So everything adds up, except... for the Park. Why not the entrance to the keep, or the entrance of Stormwind itself? Hang Onyxia's head there as a message, "Here, dragons be fucked?" I bet that pissed off the hippies when they saw a fresh cut dragon head over their immaculate turf.

The comics are "canonish" to quote Blizzard themselves.

All I am saying is that they had a technical issue, and then just "lore'd over it" to explain it away.

Logically, the Park just doesn't make sense. Deathwing is supposed to evilest of asskickers. Why would he crash out of Deepholm, fly forth from the Maelstrom, land in Stormwind, and then head to the Park?

"RAWR! I am Neltharion the Betrayer! Others call me the Destroyer and the Worldbreaker! The Night elves call me Xaxas! The Orc's whisper the name Blood's Shadow! The other Dragon Aspects have named me the Black Scourge! I am the Dark One! I am the Death Aspect! I... AM... DEATHWING!

And I am here... to destroy... your flowers!

Rawr!"

[Kael]

The comics are "canonish" to quote Blizzard themselves.

All I am saying is that they had a technical issue, and then just "lore'd over it" to explain it away.

Logically, the Park just doesn't make sense. Deathwing is supposed to evilest of asskickers. Why would he crash out of Deepholm, fly forth from the Maelstrom, land in Stormwind, and then head to the Park?

"RAWR! I am Neltharion the Betrayer! Others call me the Destroyer and the Worldbreaker! The Night elves call me Xaxas! The Orc's whisper the name Blood's Shadow! The other Dragon Aspects have named me the Black Scourge! I am the Dark One! I am the Death Aspect! I... AM... DEATHWING!

And I am here... to destroy... your flowers!

Rawr!"

As an Herbalist, this would scare me.

[Eaglestrike]

The park is on the coast, if he's from the Maelstrom, he might see the park first.

I don't really get why this is a big deal though, lol. Many, many story elements are created just to "fit" something, not just in WoW.

[Meresgi]

So basically there will be no real incentive (gear-wise at least) to run 25 man raids.
There are rewards like badges/gold for the additional coordination involved, but we are trying to avoid having gear be the reason that one style is better than the other.

The statements beforehand said that 25person would have more gear per person than 10s, so I wonder if "roughly equivalent" indicates a change in plans, or just not wanting to commit yet to either "exactly the same" or "more".
The number 6 per boss was being mentioned I believe, so slightly more I guess, but anything can change in testing so I wouldn't say that it is set in stone. But we all know you guys won't call us out if anything changes during a beta, right?

That would be interesting if they stayed that way. I mean of the only major perk to run 25's is an extra badge or 2 and some coin I don't think that will work out well. I plan to just do 10mans in Cata if I end up playing it, but I would expect 25's to have a good 2x to 3x the gear that drops in 10mans to make up for it.