Random Cataclysm discussion

[[Cookies]]

Like I said before I think the big thing about this change is the filling certain slots while only raiding 10 mans won't be impossible. Look at the trinket Slot right now, the best 10 man trinkets a Mage can get are: Eye of broodmother + Heroic Muradins Spyglass. Broodmother is 2 raids behind and almost 500 DPS under DFO/Phylac/Reign. I'm no melee but ICC 10 also contains only Whispering Fang Skull, and TOC10 doesn't contain a decent melee trinket, so you are stucking using: 60 Frost badge trinkets which take away from your 2/4 piece, Triumph trinkets that are terrible, or Ulduar/Naxx trinkets which are also terrible compared to anything from ICC.
While if you raid 25 you get 1 trinket from ToC 25, 1 trinket from ToGC 25, 2-3 Trinkets from ICC 25. Hell looking at it from a mage perspective even Ulduar 25 (Vezax HM) drops a trinket that shits all over everything you can get from 10s.

Shadow Priests have it even worse. Abyssal Rune/Muradin's It's pretty ridiculous that one of my BiS trinkets comes from a heroic. The only other option is Reign of the Dead but as a 10m raider it's unlikely i'll ever get one from a pug. 90% of them can't kill Anub anyways.

[Cephius]

It would make sense if they increased the number of emblem items so that it would create a bigger incentive to run 25s. I would have killed for a badge shield back in the day! I also thought that letting you get tier items from badges (but requiring tokens to upgrade them) was a good idea, I hope they continue doing that. Letting more tokens drop from 25s would create more incentive to run it, too.

[Falaras]

Shadow Priests have it even worse. Abyssal Rune/Muradin's It's pretty ridiculous that one of my BiS trinkets comes from a heroic. The only other option is Reign of the Dead but as a 10m raider it's unlikely i'll ever get one from a pug. 90% of them can't kill Anub anyways.

Abyssal Rune doesn't even come from a heroic not to mention Eye of the Brood even for a fire mage that relies on Crit is only like 30 DPS ahead of Abyssal.

[Falaras]

It would make sense if they increased the number of emblem items so that it would create a bigger incentive to run 25s. I would have killed for a badge shield back in the day! I also thought that letting you get tier items from badges (but requiring tokens to upgrade them) was a good idea, I hope they continue doing that. Letting more tokens drop from 25s would create more incentive to run it, too.

Honestly I agree they should increase the amount of badge items but I really dislike seeing Tier coming from Tokens. I'm not sure how it was on other servers but on Firetree (Medium pop) if you had more than 2 pieces of T6 you where godly, in fact only probably 5 people on the server had more 6/8 (never saw 8/8) and everyone knew their names. I miss Tier being a rare thing, especially since its generally the coolest looking armor.

[Lucavi]

First stats are "too mathy" so they have to go.

Now emblems and arena points are being changed to "address the confusion" and make a "more straightforward point system".

Why don't they just come out with it already and call us retarded.

Oh wait, that's what they're doing every time we pay them $15 a month or $10 for a pet or $25 for a mount.

And you're still paying, right?

Suck it up.

The changes seem alright. If rated BGs bring about the old days of TBC Mug'Thol premades, I'm all for it. Stomping the Akama bastards in AV was a joy and a treat.

[MrSamuels]

No point at all in 25 man content, might aswell just give the big fuck you to all the 25 man raiding guilds out there.

More money from bosses? sure that will help me on my almost gold capped character who doesn't even use money ever.

More badges (or points)? Cool that will be useful after this first 6 months where Blizzard still haven't released new content yet and i have more badges/points then i can spend

Not only this, every single class is going to look fucking identical. It is bad enough as it is, now with the same loot from 10 and 25 man why even bother. Just fuck the class system and gear just make new classes called Red, Blue, Green, Red tanks, Blue DPS, Green healer.

I am quite happy for Blizzard to cater for the casuals/people who geniuniely don't have time to play a lot, but don't push out those that do want to do things that are more difficult then move out of the fire away, right now bar LK25(HC) has been a joke and by the time the 30% comes in i can see even the shittest guilds downing LK25 HC. Right now the game is going to utter shit, and it is about time someone else decided to make an MMO that doesn't suck and gave Blizzard a big kick in the teeth, cause untill it does they will be able to get away with random bullshit they keep doing to their game since right now there is fuck all better to play.

[Cephius]

right now bar LK25(HC) has been a joke and by the time the 30% comes in i can see even the shittest guilds downing LK25 HC.

You lost all credibility right here.

[Falaras]

I think blizzard did a great job at balancing classes/specs without making them look the same. I can't think of any class/spec I would turn down for a raid at the moment unlike BC, but I also can't think of any class that plays the same.

[MrSamuels]

You lost all credibility right here.

What?

Idk if you are saying LK25 HEROIC is hard or easy?

The hardest part about the fight at the moment is Infest healing, when healing is increased by 30% and shields increased by 30% and health is increased by 30%, this part of the fight will be trivial, so yes, shit guilds that should never be able to down the boss will be able too.

[[Cookies]]

Abyssal Rune doesn't even come from a heroic not to mention Eye of the Brood even for a fire mage that relies on Crit is only like 30 DPS ahead of Abyssal.

Whoops. That makes it even worse though!

What?

Idk if you are saying LK25 HEROIC is hard or easy?

The hardest part about the fight at the moment is Infest healing, when healing is increased by 30% and shields increased by 30% and health is increased by 30%, this part of the fight will be trivial, so yes, shit guilds that should never be able to down the boss will be able too.

Putting a shield on 20 people is HARD MODE!!!

No.

The hard part about the fight is the dps requirement and no one fucking up over a long period of time. One mistake is a wipe.

[Falaras]

Whoops. That makes it even worse though!

Sometimes you just have to wonder what blizzard is thinking though, such as Nevermelting and the TOC 10 trinkets. Like I thought they did it right in BC making H MGT trinkets more or less BIS, but then they add the 3 new ICC instances and give us Nevermelting Ice Crystal that is only good for affliction (and even then not most fights)
Basically not fucking up items they add could have solved a lot of problems.

[Cephius]

What?

Idk if you are saying LK25 HEROIC is hard or easy?

The hardest part about the fight at the moment is Infest healing, when healing is increased by 30% and shields increased by 30% and health is increased by 30%, this part of the fight will be trivial, so yes, shit guilds that should never be able to down the boss will be able too.

Yeah you're right. It's not like one person failing to quickly move out of a trap is a wipe, or anything.

I've never fought LK heroic, but from the look of it it's so unforgiving of even the smallest mistake that I don't see how you can say "Oh yeah just hand out a 30% buff and it'll be easy mode"

[MrSamuels]

Yeah you're right. It's not like one person failing to quickly move out of a trap is a wipe, or anything.

I've never fought LK heroic, but from the look of it it's so unforgiving of even the smallest mistake that I don't see how you can say "Oh yeah just hand out a 30% buff and it'll be easy mode"

Right now it is unforgiving yes, but let's be honest, moving out of stuff + AVR & AVR E being implemented recently isn't exactally rocket science to figure out. If the reason any guild is wiping to LK 25 HC is shadow traps, how the fuck your guild got that far in the first place is beyond me.

So far like mentioned above, healing infest is the hardest part cause you have 5 healers + the amount the tanks are taking it gets insane, this fight from my dealings with it (50%) is all luck at the moment, disc healers get Valkyr'd? better call a wipe then cause its over.

However as time passes and the buff increase dps will increase, more healers can be taken, and slowly but surely the fight is easier. I am not talking about guilds who are 4/12 normal downing LK25, but people downing LK25 or just dabbing their feet into heroic now will have a damn good shot at it. Where as before in TBC they would not have even dreamed of getting down KJ or similar bosses downed.

[Lucavi]

Not only this, every single class is going to look fucking identical. It is bad enough as it is, now with the same loot from 10 and 25 man why even bother. Just fuck the class system and gear just make new classes called Red, Blue, Green, Red tanks, Blue DPS, Green healer.

Man I hope you didn't play FFXI.

[MrSamuels]

Yes i did play FFXI yes the problem was in that game also, the difference being is that FFXI didn't have new content every 3-4 months with new things being implemented, things like Kings, Dynamis etc remained the best for a very long time untill Salvage and more came a long.

Also people didn't play FFXI for a month and all of a sudden become one of the better geared players in the game. Right now with current design, you can get to 80 in less then a week, run HCs all day, and become geared in 3-4 days, ready to raid whatever really and get straight in. Fuck, if you timed it wrong you could have to wait double the time of that to even get a KB/Nid/Aspid to spawn

This is a philsophy i don't get, what is wrong with people who don't wanna play the game 6 hours a night to raid having the 10th best gear upgraded to the 9th best, an upgrade is an upgrade, it still makes you feel good inside, if not better as you know next time you may get the 9th best piece upgraded to the 8th etc etc. Why do they need the best gear? to run heroics with their family friends whatever? Why does a player who will only ever down a normal instance need to have the same gear as those doing it on heroic?

I understand Blizzard and why Blizzard want to keep these players, i just don't get at why they will dumb down everything to keep them here pushing a different market away.

[Tajin]

Its not about needing, its about having the content avaliable for everyone to see.
That said, everyone and their mom goes PLZ I NEED, at whatever shit drops ;/

[Cephius]

Right now it is unforgiving yes, but let's be honest, moving out of stuff + AVR & AVR E being implemented recently isn't exactally rocket science to figure out. If the reason any guild is wiping to LK 25 HC is shadow traps, how the fuck your guild got that far in the first place is beyond me.

That is the definition of a shitty guild. You claimed that "even shitty guilds could kill LK HC" with a 30% buff. Something doesn't add up, there.

So far like mentioned above, healing infest is the hardest part cause you have 5 healers + the amount the tanks are taking it gets insane, this fight from my dealings with it (50%) is all luck at the moment, disc healers get Valkyr'd? better call a wipe then cause its over.

Yeah, so the buff gives you bit more breathing room. This isn't going to help the shitty guilds. It will help some (like your guild, apparently) overcome the random aspects of the fight.

However as time passes and the buff increase dps will increase, more healers can be taken, and slowly but surely the fight is easier. I am not talking about guilds who are 4/12 normal downing LK25, but people downing LK25 or just dabbing their feet into heroic now will have a damn good shot at it. Where as before in TBC they would not have even dreamed of getting down KJ or similar bosses downed.

This is bad... how?

EDIT: To elaborate, you really see a problem with letting more than the top 1% of guilds have a chance to clear HM Lich King? Especially if it's right before the content is about to become outdated with the release of another expansion. Did people complain this much when they nerfed Sunwell right before Wrath?

[Tajin]

Blizzard needs to spend whatever amount of money and resources to develop content for 15% of his player base clearly.

[Lucavi]

^ Agreed. The Lich King is really the only boss I want everyone to be able to beat after a long and challenging fight. A lot of people initially bought WoW just to eventually get that crack at "beating the game" (of Warcraft 3) - myself included. Granted, I'm strong enough to take him down, and am in a strong enough guild to drop him, but I can certainly see if some casual guy that has a casual interest in the lore wants to beat the shit out of the guy that was responsible for so much of this chaos.

Nobody really had a reason to kill Illidan, other than the fact that he was the boss. Everyone who plays this game has a reason to kill the Lich King, or at least to try. I think Blizzard understands that, and that's why they're doing everything they can to make sure that the fights remain challenging, yet accessable.

They can make it so that only .03% of people get to fight Deathwing if they want for the next expansion, but people have to have their shot at revenge on Arthas.

[Cephius]

Also I didn't see this mentioned... was posted last night:

We're continuing to refine the badge/emblem and PvP point systems in Cataclysm and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

Our primary goal when approaching badges in Cataclysm is to address a lot of the confusion that comes with these currency systems. To that end we're changing badges to a more straightforward point system, similar to the ones we've used for a while for Arenas and Battlegrounds. There will be a total of four types of points you can earn in Cataclysm (two for PvE and two for PvP), and these will remain the same even as we introduce new content.

Here's the breakdown:

PvE
Hero Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most dungeons. (most like the current Emblem of Triumph)
Valor Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, as well as a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from Dungeon Finder daily Heroic and from raids. (most like the current Emblem of Frost)

PvP
Honor Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most PvP activities.
Conquest Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, and a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from winning Rated Battlegrounds or Arenas. (currently called Arena Points)

When a new tier of raiding gear is released or a new PvP season begins, your higher tier of points will be converted into the lower tier. For instance, if a new tier of raid gear is released, your Valor points will be converted to Hero points, and similarly if a new PvP season begins your Conquest points will be converted to Honor points. Of course that means with these new releases you'll always begin without any of the higher tier of points, and thus be unable to stockpile them.

As noted for Conquest points, the Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas will be sharing this same point type. Because of that, it will in fact be possible to get the best PvP items without setting foot in Arena; however, more powerful armor and weapons will of course require more Conquest points, so players who win their matches more often will still gear up faster. We're removing personal rating requirements on almost all items; they're definitely removed for weapons. We might offer a few items to the absolute best players based on personal rating, largely as cosmetic or 'bragging rights' type items. And you'll have the option of purchasing the previous season’s gear with the more readily available Honor points.

We do plan to have a way to convert Honor points (PvP) into Hero points (PvE), and vice versa, at a loss. The conversions will be possible, but it won't be a 1:1 rate, and you'll have fewer points after the conversion process. We won't allow the higher tiers to be exchanged for each other, however.

To explain the reasoning for the weekly cap on points for the higher tiers, this is to provide flexibility in how players choose to earn the points without feeling like they have to do all of the content as often as it is available. If your Valor income from raiding is sufficient, you may not feel the need to run Dungeon Finder every night, or perhaps even at all. Likewise, a PvP player could choose to participate in a lot of Rated Battlegrounds but no Arenas, or focus on both, and still be able to earn the points they want.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

Nothing earth-shattering, but yeah.