Random Cataclysm discussion

[Ohaigaiz]

wow i'm late to this thread

[Boyiee]

More loot per hour of time?

The whole point is that if some of your 25 man crew isn't on that night/week, you can run 10s instead and not appreciably lose progress.

Yeah, which is great.

But as gulk was saying, less people means less chances for someone for someone to fuck up or make that one mistake that wipes the raid. However blizzards wording on making 10s and 25s closer to each other in difficulty makes me think that 10mans will become harder, in which case that 1 fuckup in 10man will also account for a wipe.

Still, less people to afk dc fail etc, but having the option to do 10man if shit hits the fan is great for a lot of guilds.

Looking at my last major guild we always had several people geared to tank in case one couldn't show, but if you are a smaller guild and rely on 3ish tanks to be there every night, and ones power is out, you are no longer fucked and can still do 10s.

[Plow]

Haven't read most of the thread, but the stuff in the first post may be enough to get me to come back for Cata, largely for the already mentioned reason of everything being done in a night or 2 so I can play other games.

It'll also help with the issues created by having 4 tiers of gear per tier with massive scaling troubles. Theoretically with this setup, in WotLK we could be looking at something like:

heroic 5's: 1 200 per run

naxx
normal 10's/25's: 200's everywhere
heroic 10's/25's: 213's

uld
normal 10's/25's: 219's
heroics: 226's

ToC
normals: 232's
heroics: 239's

ICC
normals: 245's
heroics: 251's

Arthas: 251's
heroic Arthas: 258's


And even that is giving really wide gaps especially at the start, it could be considerably lower.

Getting people taking 10 mans seriously will be damn fun in my eyes. I've always been big on low manning stuff anyway, and I've never been a fan of 25 mans, so the fact that getting "good" players for 10's generally meant they weren't going to be very serious because they were serious about 25 mans already was a big hassle.

[Plow]

Yeah, which is great.

But as gulk was saying, less people means less chances for someone for someone to fuck up or make that one mistake that wipes the raid. However blizzards wording on making 10s and 25s closer to each other in difficulty makes me think that 10mans will become harder, in which case that 1 fuckup in 10man will also account for a wipe.

Still, less people to afk dc fail etc, but having the option to do 10man if shit hits the fan is great for a lot of guilds.

Looking at my last major guild we always had several people geared to tank in case one couldn't show, but if you are a smaller guild and rely on 3ish tanks to be there every night, and ones power is out, you are no longer fucked and can still do 10s.

Here's the thing: how many moves are 1 person wipe causers?

All I can think of is defile or stuff like *massive* fuckups on festergut. For the most part, 1 person fucking up in 25 mans can be covered more easily than 1 person fucking up on 10 mans, except for the fact that 10 mans are literally tuned easier.

However, go back and look at putricide the first couple weeks to see an example of how when tuned properly, each person's role literally being more than twice as much of a portion of the group really puts the pressure on individuals.

[Gulkeeva]

Heroic LK 10man is 271! (rest 258) erm anyway...

Lets see.. 1 thing that can fuckup a raid badly per boss...

1. marrowgar (tank bad position cleaves raid) *or someone bops tank, seen that happen!)
2. deathwhisper, ghost explosion "could" kill alot (it did when there was 0-5% buff for sure)
3. airship... keep hitting that 1 general on the other ship till his stack does like +400% damage instantly killing whatever he hits (like dot damage from people!)
4. saurfang , failure to heal marked person (heals saurfang like 50% hp on heroic i think which is like 20mil hp on heroic)
5. festergut "that 1 guy" that should be standing out, standing in (for like spore) and vomit hits all the melee+ tank (threat is nonexistant on tank vomiting so goes for highest threat)
6.Rotface - someone manages to taunt the blob into melee range (that aoe pulse rapes on heroic, think its like 8-10K per 2 sec when its red)
7. professor putricide - guy with the red ooze runs right into it... (i've seen it happen and kill about 17 people!)
8.blood princes - forget to dps kinetic orb tosses entire raid around (and does a ton of damage)
9. Blood queen - First bite failure/MC
10.Can't think of anything on valithria...
11. Sindragosa - forget to move out of raid with mark/ ice tomb entire raid
12. Hitting shadow trap, pulling aggro on shambler -> shockwave raid -> standing in defile -> didn't kill ghost in frostmourne


I'm sure I missed something that a "1 single person an wipe the raid" thing in there. although with the current buffs as is now, some of that I'm sure can be recovered easily (Hell I got like 36K hp in there now)

Most the stuff above is listed for 25man and on heroic mode, and especially back in the 0%-5% buff ranges. You could overcome some of that with the current dps/hp of people and healing power if you have a decent raid.

[Tricen]

@ BQL: I did that once. I got bit first for some unknown reason and I was too caught up in the numbers Q_Q

[Plow]

1. marrowgar (tank bad position cleaves raid) *or someone bops tank, seen that happen!)

I suppose I didn't clarify "what that's not extremely far beyond retarded, based around the 1 key role, and/or intentional ways to wipe almost any fight" but seriously...

Not to mention, you can recover from any of that anyway unless it kills like absolutely everyone.

2. deathwhisper, ghost explosion "could" kill alot (it did when there was 0-5% buff for sure)

That's more than 1 person, because people that die have to have been in range.

3. airship... keep hitting that 1 general on the other ship till his stack does like +400% damage instantly killing whatever he hits (like dot damage from people!)

He gains stacks from hitting things, not being hit. You'd have to either have the 1 key tank person being stupid or dc'ing, or someone taunting and shit. Even then it's a multi-person mistake if it causes a wipe, as it's not complicated to pick him up and kite him for damn near anyone.

4. saurfang , failure to heal marked person (heals saurfang like 50% hp on heroic i think which is like 20mil hp on heroic)

Unless you're 1 healing, which is a very unique setup, "failure to heal" is more than 1 person causing a wipe. Assignments or not, good healers cover for each other intelligently.

5. festergut "that 1 guy" that should be standing out, standing in (for like spore) and vomit hits all the melee+ tank (threat is nonexistant on tank vomiting so goes for highest threat)

That you can reasonably blame it on 1 person exclusively, but they have to make a very specific, exact mistake, combined with some measure of luck, and be pushing the minimum number of ranged specifically planning for that to never happen.

6.Rotface - someone manages to taunt the blob into melee range (that aoe pulse rapes on heroic, think its like 8-10K per 2 sec when its red)

That's on at least 2 people, it's not difficult to be paying enough attention to the mob you're kiting before it wipes the raid if that happens.

7. professor putricide - guy with the red ooze runs right into it... (i've seen it happen and kill about 17 people!)

Yup.

8.blood princes - forget to dps kinetic orb tosses entire raid around (and does a ton of damage)

1 orb hitting shouldn't cause a wipe, although I can see it doing so with no buffs in heroic. Still, that's a specific situation where the reality is if someone failed at it they had no business being assigned to the role (or in the raid, seriously, failing at orbs?).

9. Blood queen - First bite failure/MC

That's a multi-person failure for the most part, as you should be communicating enough that the first bite failing is just... again, wtf were they doing in your raid level mistakes.

I mean yeah, I could go through 99.999999% of bosses in the game and say "Your tank fails and loses hate constantly, bam single player wipes," but I really didn't think fucktardedness was what we were talking about.

10.Can't think of anything on valithria...

That's kind of sad because a single misstep or misclick can cost a single healer enough time to lose stack and the fight be auto-lost. It would be one of the best examples lol.

11. Sindragosa - forget to move out of raid with mark/ ice tomb entire raid
12. Hitting shadow trap, pulling aggro on shambler -> shockwave raid -> standing in defile -> didn't kill ghost in frostmourne

Yeap, sindra and lk both have pretty decent individual pressure.

I'm sure I missed something that a "1 single person an wipe the raid" thing in there. although with the current buffs as is now, some of that I'm sure can be recovered easily (Hell I got like 36K hp in there now)

Most the stuff above is listed for 25man and on heroic mode, and especially back in the 0%-5% buff ranges. You could overcome some of that with the current dps/hp of people and healing power if you have a decent raid.

Almost everything you listed was easily recoverable at 0% in normal, as someone whose "main" raid was my guild's alt/guest raid, I can promise you this lol.

But really, look at your list... and then think of the multitudes of ways groups can fail. Everything ranging from general lack of dps or heals, to lack of raid awareness resulting in too much bullshit adding up, to specific things like the group as a whole not reacting to adds fast enough, etc. Those kinds of things are very rarely challenged on an individual basis, they're kept more to an organizational basis (think: festergut positioning vs saying go and hoping fo the best, as opposed to, say, rotface slime delivery).


It's a double edged sword currently, because if you're putting that kind of individual pressure on people in 10 mans, why wouldn't you reward them equally to 25 mans? And then there's the question of how do you provide individual challenges that are no more punishing in 10 than in 25, because it's "not ok" for them to be harder when they give less loot.

I won't be surprised at all if there's much more of the direct ones you mentioned like defile, orange goos, and individual responsibilities like the balls, going forward. If you can do it with 10 people and get the same loot as with 25, there's no problem with 10 man being harder than 25. Seems like a good thing to me.

[Metta]

Little late here, but defnetley agreed with more items like Nibelung and its really not so bad, people say valks die often, on a fight where they proc (if they proc -_-) they can do anywhere from 5-10% of my overall dps, i have the 277 Nibelung and i dont think the valks hit harder or anything from normal version.

WTB more proc weapons, and cool weapon enchants for casters.

[Norellicus]

Haven't read most of the thread, but the stuff in the first post may be enough to get me to come back for Cata, largely for the already mentioned reason of everything being done in a night or 2 so I can play other games.

It'll also help with the issues created by having 4 tiers of gear per tier with massive scaling troubles. Theoretically with this setup, in WotLK we could be looking at something like:

heroic 5's: 1 200 per run

naxx
normal 10's/25's: 200's everywhere
heroic 10's/25's: 213's

uld
normal 10's/25's: 219's
heroics: 226's

ToC
normals: 232's
heroics: 239's

ICC
normals: 245's
heroics: 251's

Arthas: 251's
heroic Arthas: 258's


And even that is giving really wide gaps especially at the start, it could be considerably lower.

Getting people taking 10 mans seriously will be damn fun in my eyes. I've always been big on low manning stuff anyway, and I've never been a fan of 25 mans, so the fact that getting "good" players for 10's generally meant they weren't going to be very serious because they were serious about 25 mans already was a big hassle.

They're not changing existing systems. Everything they're talking about here is Cataclysm.

ICC will remain as it is now, and all the existing badges will probably still exist (though this they could easily retrofit).

[Eaglestrike]

Failure to read...he said "theoretically" in his post, he was speculating about what this could mean come Cata and talking in terms we can compare to.

[Plow]

Yeah that was the idea, I'm not saying they're going to fix LK, just that if it had been that way all along, it would put us back to the 245-251 top end range I think they expected to end LK by.

Not sure how this hasn't been posted, but holy shit:

Cataclysm Badge and PvP Point Changes
Quote from: Bashiok (Source)
We're continuing to refine the badge/emblem and PvP point systems in Cataclysm and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

Our primary goal when approaching badges in Cataclysm is to address a lot of the confusion that comes with these currency systems. To that end we're changing badges to a more straightforward point system, similar to the ones we've used for a while for Arenas and Battlegrounds. There will be a total of four types of points you can earn in Cataclysm (two for PvE and two for PvP), and these will remain the same even as we introduce new content.

Here's the breakdown:

PvE

* Hero Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most dungeons. (most like the current Emblem of Triumph)
* Valor Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, as well as a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from Dungeon Finder daily Heroic and from raids. (most like the current Emblem of Frost)


PvP

* Honor Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most PvP activities.
* Conquest Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, and a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from winning Rated Battlegrounds or Arenas. (currently called Arena Points)


When a new tier of raiding gear is released or a new PvP season begins, your higher tier of points will be converted into the lower tier. For instance, if a new tier of raid gear is released, your Valor points will be converted to Hero points, and similarly if a new PvP season begins your Conquest points will be converted to Honor points. Of course that means with these new releases you'll always begin without any of the higher tier of points, and thus be unable to stockpile them.

As noted for Conquest points, the Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas will be sharing this same point type. Because of that, it will in fact be possible to get the best PvP items without setting foot in Arena; however, more powerful armor and weapons will of course require more Conquest points, so players who win their matches more often will still gear up faster. We're removing personal rating requirements on almost all items; they're definitely removed for weapons. We might offer a few items to the absolute best players based on personal rating, largely as cosmetic or 'bragging rights' type items. And you'll have the option of purchasing the previous season’s gear with the more readily available Honor points.

We do plan to have a way to convert Honor points (PvP) into Hero points (PvE), and vice versa, at a loss. The conversions will be possible, but it won't be a 1:1 rate, and you'll have fewer points after the conversion process. We won't allow the higher tiers to be exchanged for each other, however.

To explain the reasoning for the weekly cap on points for the higher tiers, this is to provide flexibility in how players choose to earn the points without feeling like they have to do all of the content as often as it is available. If your Valor income from raiding is sufficient, you may not feel the need to run Dungeon Finder every night, or perhaps even at all. Likewise, a PvP player could choose to participate in a lot of Rated Battlegrounds but no Arenas, or focus on both, and still be able to earn the points they want.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

cliffnotes...

no more badges, think honor points and arena points for everything, heoics give pve "honor points", raids give pve "arena points," unrated shit gives honor points, rated arenas/bg's give arena points

no more meaningful rating requirements, either

"arena points" and the pve version reset to 0 every time there's new tier of loot

[Eaglestrike]

That's the 3rd time it has been posted, everyone is putting it in spoiler tags and so that seems to hide from everyone else, lol.

[Gulkeeva]

haha yeah most the stuff I mentioned is from people we sell stuff for like shadowmourne and or drake achievements in 25man, seen it all ;/ We replace like 1-3 people per week with someone new also so... (we got 1 boomkin, 2 new shamans, a new DK and a new ar this week infact that have never done heroic 25man)

Some the stuff was from 0% buff icc like... death whisper frost bolt volley + ghost explosion is probably 30K damage and not many had that at 0%.

as for the airship thing, I didn't mean exactly from damage but "keeping him active on a target" by dots, so he just sits and throws his axe thing or whatever constantly and never resetting.

[Melena]

Judging from the posts here, I don't think many of us care about guild progression ranking. Maybe Gulk and a few others, but I don't think many people here (or in the WoW community for that matter) will do 25s just for guild rankings.

Not outright progression. They are doing stuff where as your guild members improve, your guild gets certain bonuses, like an aoe raise to speed up wipe recovery, increased gold from mobs, shit like that. Think path of the titans, but for your guild.

[Tonka]

Friends & Family alpha started.

Spoiler: show

lol deathwing pic gone

[Lucavi]

Nice Deathwing model.

[Katlan]

is that supposed to be part of the world event? Deathwing rampaging SW

[Tonka]

is that supposed to be part of the world event? Deathwing rampaging SW

Probably not. It's probably some WoW model viewer using extracted data.

[fantasticdan]

It's a model swap, you can see the player name.

[Cephius]

He is quite large