Random Cataclysm discussion

[Plow]

Lower level queues are irrelevant. Due to the state of the game and how fast leveling is, there are blocks where nobody is really queueing. You'll see what is essentially really random waits at these levels.

I've had pretty consistent 1 minute queues across my warrior and druid as tank pretty much the whole way, queue on druid as heals are pretty much always near instant.

At 85 I don't have a healer atm, but I can see the difference between me tank + a dps queuing and me dps + a heal queuing.

[Melena]

How big are your thumbs? I just can't imagine using the button setup the naga has.

Decent sized thumbs. I haven't had any issues of hitting two buttons at once. A lot of it is just memorizing the placement. My most common buttons are 2,3,5,6,7

[Tajin]

I've had pretty consistent 1 minute queues across my warrior and druid as tank pretty much the whole way, queue on druid as heals are pretty much always near instant.

At 85 I don't have a healer atm, but I can see the difference between me tank + a dps queuing and me dps + a heal queuing.

I've rarely had a 1+ minute queue as tank except late night, and now with BGs merged queue as healer has goen from -5m to +5minutes.

[Intrinsic]

I have a healer on Blackrock and I've never waited in queue for heroics less than 3-5 minutes, most of the time queue pops right around 5 minutes. There's no way you're getting instant healer queues on Blackrock.

[Odon]

How would you propose they do that? The only way is to force more people to level/play tanks and heals because that's what the DPS are waiting for. Unless you impose some sort of arbitrary waiting period for tanks and heals queueing to "even it out," but that would just in turn make the DPS queue even longer.

Or should they create some AI heals and tanks to throw in with three random DPS? I can't see that ending well. Blizzard can't force people to play their heals or tank classes, and they can't force them to queue up either.

A lottery system for DPS, you queue and get put into the lottery, it randomly picks people. The longer you've been in queue the more rolls you get for a group.

I just fixed your shit dungeon finder. Pay me $100,000 dollars blizzard.

[MisterBob]

A lottery system for DPS, you queue and get put into the lottery, it randomly picks people. The longer you've been in queue the more rolls you get for a group.

I just fixed your shit dungeon finder. Pay me $100,000 dollars blizzard.

Doesnt that average out to be the same as waiting in line? Yes.

[Odon]

Will you get lucky and get into queues faster in that system than this one? Yes.

[MisterBob]

Will you get lucky and get into queues faster in that system than this one? Yes.

You have a similar chance of getting unlucky and not getting a queue for a longer time. If the same number of people are in the system, the average queue time will be the same. You cannot solve this problem without either making tanks not required, or reducing the number of DPS in the queue, which is impossible (without changing the core game mechanics, or adding something silly like tank bots, which would be horrible).

I suggest you graph this and you'll see what actually happens. The math is actually quite simple.

Edit: I just wanted to point out that I'm now more concerned than ever about the state of high school math education in the US

[Odon]

Like you said there is no way to fix this Dungeon Finder system without doing something about requiring Tanks + Healers.

The solution I posted was only just a temp fix for something that would allow people to randomly jump ahead of the line instead of waiting at the back always.

They could also just implement some kind of ai tank / healers for DPS and just tone the dungeon down for that group or give them some insane buff.

[Kaylia]

Odon's idea hurt my brain. Let's replace the average wait time with a bell curve around the average wait time. Much better!


The only way to fix the issue (without lowering the difficulty to a point where you don't need tank) is to have more people tank. What they could do is give more DPS a viable tanking spec that only require DPS gears. You could probably get away with it adding a few ability in a particular tree and nerf it on raid boss.
-Hunters: Scrap one of the tree and replace it with tanking stuff (hunter dmg nerfed considerably when the pet is in tanking mode).
-Warlock: Same deal with a pet
-Frost mage: Frost armor, and stun/slow aoe.

[The Stig]

While I'm always open and welcoming to changes, wouldn't that make the community rage?

I forget which class but I recall one of them summoning an Earth Elemental (I hardly see it nowadays) that taunted and that rock lasted a tiny bit, perhaps enhancing whatever that pet's parent class would be better?

[MisterBob]

Odon's idea hurt my brain. Let's replace the average wait time with a bell curve around the average wait time. Much better!

Lol, yeah, like I said, I'm reaaally worried about math education. That's some really low level stuff that every adult should know.

I forget which class but I recall one of them summoning an Earth Elemental (I hardly see it nowadays) that taunted and that rock lasted a tiny bit, perhaps enhancing whatever that pet's parent class would be better?

The Warlock's Voidwalker is supposed to be a "tank" pet as well. The problem with buffing these is that it obviously overpowers the class, so you'd have to do something to compensate, which would make people angry. Blizzard originally tried to fix all of this by introducing a fourth class that can really tank (DK), but it seems that people just don't like to do it. Whether it's the pressure, or the fact that most online games are filled with FPS kiddies who want to headshot everything now, we may never be sure.

[Kaylia]

While I'm always open and welcoming to changes, wouldn't that make the community rage?

I forget which class but I recall one of them summoning an Earth Elemental (I hardly see it nowadays) that taunted and that rock lasted a tiny bit, perhaps enhancing whatever that pet's parent class would be better?

People will always cry anyway.

I think there is multiple way to balance something like this without making the class overpowered, and without putting too much work in it. Adding a stance you would only want to use for tanking 5man (or trash) would be more than enough. It's easy to balance such stance around the rest of your current ability and offer a cheap alternative to the current issue.


Essentially, all you need is damage mitigation, good aoe threat, and a single target taunt move (misdirect kind of deal with pet). A few bandaids could easily fix the remaining balance issue if needed. Is it going to be fun or challenging? Maybe not, but tanking is a joke anyway. It's not like my paladin has a complex rotation or anything.

The Warlock's Voidwalker is supposed to be a "tank" pet as well. The problem with buffing these is that it obviously overpowers the class, so you'd have to do something to compensate, which would make people angry. Blizzard originally tried to fix all of this by introducing a fourth class that can really tank (DK), but it seems that people just don't like to do it. Whether it's the pressure, or the fact that most online games are filled with FPS kiddies who want to headshot everything now, we may never be sure.

Yeah, I agree simply buffing the pets wouldn't do it, but I believe it would be possible to do this with only a few talents tweak. Beyond the basic attack rotation, it's not like heroic tanking require more than 3-4 abilities.

And like you said, tanking isnt very popular. I'm not exactly sure why since nothing is worse than playing a helpless dps, but people just dont like it... The reason why I proposed "tank in dps gear" was to facilitate the transition. I think many don't bother simply because it cost too much (time and money) to gear another spec properly...if they could avoid a 50 minutes queue with a simple "change spec" key, I'm sure they would be more willing to try.

[Siniroth]

A lottery system for DPS, you queue and get put into the lottery, it randomly picks people. The longer you've been in queue the more rolls you get for a group.

I just fixed your shit dungeon finder. Pay me $100,000 dollars blizzard.

To actually contribute, I generally just do dailies or do something around apartment while I wait on queue if I'm queueing dps, sound enabled temporarily for the queue sound is a wonderful wonderful thing

[Cephius]

I've heard the "let other classes tank!" idea a million times, it won't help. People who want to tank roll a class who can tank. People who don't want to tank won't suddenly feel like tanking if their class is given a tank spec. There might be a small spike in tank rerolls if another tanking class was introduced because it's something new, but in the end it won't matter. I don't think there's any way to "fix" DPS queue times, though it should naturally get a bit better as content patches are released and heroics become total faceroll and people are less scared to tank them.

Also lol at a random lottery for DPS. Won't fix anything, and your queue will still pop while you're on the shitter.

[FailureMidgard]

I've heard the "let other classes tank!" idea a million times, it won't help. People who want to tank roll a class who can tank. People who don't want to tank won't suddenly feel like tanking if their class is given a tank spec. There might be a small spike in tank rerolls if another tanking class was introduced because it's something new, but in the end it won't matter. I don't think there's any way to "fix" DPS queue times, though it should naturally get a bit better as content patches are released and heroics become total faceroll and people are less scared to tank them.

Also lol at a random lottery for DPS. Won't fix anything, and your queue will still pop while you're on the shitter.

I don't think you've ever read many hunter forums. All sorts of hunters love having their pets tank various fights, even though it's usually 'cause of gimmicky shit. Past that, I think you're way off, and if they made Beast a tank tree, you would see a rise in tank hunters (and similarly, a drop in DPS hunters) queuing, and it would help queues. I guess I can't speak for anyone, but most people I know didn't sit down and say "hmm, I don't want to tank....lets see which class is safe from that!" In fact, there's a guy I play with who really doesn't like tanking, but he has a DK alt, and made a tank set anyway because he'd rather play the game than sit in town for 45minutes. My main is a hunter, and as sad as I'd be to lose my current dual specs, if I had a reason to run heroics for VP, if they made beast a tank spec, I'd offspec it to avoid queues (though, probably wouldn't happen until next tier when they make VP/daily heroic worthwhile again).

I definitely think adding more "Tank" classes is the way to go, but I don't think a simple stance is going to do it. They need to redesign a full tree to make it work and be properly balanced. Which is really the drawback and what would piss people off...losing their favorite tree, or some nonsense.

Also, random lottery queues is the worst idea I've ever heard. On top of fixing nothing, it ruins it so you can't safely afk for 30min and cook dinner if you do happen to be a solo-queuing DPS.

[Plow]

Yeah, I think people underestimate how readily willing people would be to tank if it was only for 5 mans.

I actually did start a hunter (twice actually, both ~lv 40 before I stopped) directly thinking I wanted to level something that didn't have healing or tanking options so that I would have a toon where I wouldn't be asked to do either.

However, if I could queue for 5 mans as a tank I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I'm already quite capable at the lower levels with a swiping bear, especially now that everything gets thunderstomp (my experience, which I've tanked probably 1/3 of the instances I've done on them due to others' retardation, was all before that addition).


Admittedly, on my DK when I don't want to tank I'll wait for another tank in guild so I can just go as dps, but when I want to get on, get my daily done, and log off, I'll tank for sure, and I'm certain a huge percentage of the hunter/lock (maybe even rogue or spriest as well) population would be willing to do so, and a lot would even keep their 2nd spec as their 5 man tank spec.

[Cephius]

I don't think you've ever read many hunter forums. All sorts of hunters love having their pets tank various fights, even though it's usually 'cause of gimmicky shit. Past that, I think you're way off, and if they made Beast a tank tree, you would see a rise in tank hunters (and similarly, a drop in DPS hunters) queuing, and it would help queues. I guess I can't speak for anyone, but most people I know didn't sit down and say "hmm, I don't want to tank....lets see which class is safe from that!" In fact, there's a guy I play with who really doesn't like tanking, but he has a DK alt, and made a tank set anyway because he'd rather play the game than sit in town for 45minutes. My main is a hunter, and as sad as I'd be to lose my current dual specs, if I had a reason to run heroics for VP, if they made beast a tank spec, I'd offspec it to avoid queues (though, probably wouldn't happen until next tier when they make VP/daily heroic worthwhile again).

I definitely think adding more "Tank" classes is the way to go, but I don't think a simple stance is going to do it. They need to redesign a full tree to make it work and be properly balanced. Which is really the drawback and what would piss people off...losing their favorite tree, or some nonsense.

Also, random lottery queues is the worst idea I've ever heard. On top of fixing nothing, it ruins it so you can't safely afk for 30min and cook dinner if you do happen to be a solo-queuing DPS.

I don't buy it. It's not just the ability to tank, it's the responsibility that goes along with it. Most people do not like being thrust into a leadership role, and tanking forces you to do that. You have to know not only your own class, but the CC abilities of every class, the mechanics of every fight, so on and so forth. And, by extension, the propensity to blame everything and anything on the tank when something goes wrong. I don't see a pet tanking class or anything else helping. Like you said, a spec would disappear, people would QQ, and in the end I don't think it's going to suddenly inspire anyone to tank except for the few who like trying out new stuff.

And no, I don't read hunter forums, but loving using the turtle to solo stonecore or VP bosses for mounts =/= loving tanking.

[Correction]

Yeah, I think people underestimate how readily willing people would be to tank if it was only for 5 mans.

I think that the current situation for dps-only queues would cause many to say 'gosh I would tank if I could' only to shorten the length of their queues, and are themselves underestimating the reasons why tanking in cataclysm content is such a pain in the ass. Folks though wotlk 5-man tanking was an utter joke. Then Blizzard released the ICC 5-mans and suddenly the barrier to being a successful group jumped up and all you heard was 'fuck H. HoR' because tanks would get their drops then leave.

[Plow]

honestly I'd say hhor early trash was worse than any trash or boss in cata 5 mans lol