Random Cataclysm discussion

[Cephius]

honestly I'd say hhor early trash was worse than any trash or boss in cata 5 mans lol

What was hard about HoR trash? It just seemed hard, because if you tried to FoK or blizzard your way through them it didn't work well, and tanks would take a lot of damage if they ignored the rouge's shadowstep and butt-tanked everything. If you followed a kill order it was an outright joke even for groups that did not overgear the instance.

[Plow]

the simple fact that you couldn't stop and drink between pulls made it more challenging than anything in cata heroics on its own, but also I can't think of anything in cata that combines mobs that CC with multiple different ranged mobs and heals, let alone undead

edit: or anything that cc's tanks for that matter

[MisterBob]

the simple fact that you couldn't stop and drink between pulls made it more challenging than anything in cata heroics on its own, but also I can't think of anything in cata that combines mobs that CC with multiple different ranged mobs and heals, let alone undead

There are pulls like that in Cata as well, particularly in Vash'Jir. I think HoR only seemed hard because it was quite the shock after dealing with the joke that was heroics prior.

[Cephius]

the simple fact that you couldn't stop and drink between pulls made it more challenging than anything in cata heroics on its own, but also I can't think of anything in cata that combines mobs that CC with multiple different ranged mobs and heals, let alone undead

What about stonecore trash? Or the goblins in ToT?

edit: or anything that cc's tanks for that matter

Kidding right? the big cloud dudes in VP charge/stun tanks when they're pulled. The ones on the first pull can remove the tank from combat via cyclone. The fire pygmies in lost city cast dragon breath, which disorients the tank and takes him out of combat also. The trash in BRD (i think) cast hex frequently.

[Correction]

What was hard about HoR trash? It just seemed hard, because if you tried to FoK or blizzard your way through them it didn't work well, and tanks would take a lot of damage if they ignored the rouge's shadowstep and butt-tanked everything. If you followed a kill order it was an outright joke even for groups that did not overgear the instance.

Hell no. Some group comps were FUCKED on double mercenary pulls before that was nerfed. The only groups blowing through H.HoR were already sporting Ulduar gear.

[Plow]

There are pulls like that in Cata as well, particularly in Vash'Jir. I think HoR only seemed hard because it was quite the shock after dealing with the joke that was heroics prior.

There's that one big pull in ToT, but I don't think any of those mobs have CC, and while there are healers and ranged, there aren't melee + healers + 2 different kinds of ranged that stand in 2 different spots.

They're also not undead.

What about stonecore trash? Or the goblins in ToT?

What about it? For stonecore I've been aoeing the big early packs since I started in heroics with like 115k buffed, just blowing cd's and interrupting transform thingy. Goblins are the same deal, they have that nasty ass ranged attack that they all use on the pull, again just burning cd's is how you go through.

The thing is, none of these are "gauntlet instances." If you have trouble, or even drop a dps, you slow down and get ready for the next pull. In HoR, if you dropped a DPS on a middle number it was basically a wipe if you didn't have a brez, and if you wipe you start over, not just take 20 seconds to run back and keep going.

Kidding right? the big cloud dudes in VP charge/stun tanks when they're pulled. The ones on the first pull can remove the tank from combat via cyclone. The fire pygmies in lost city cast dragon breath, which disorients the tank and takes him out of combat also. The trash in BRD (i think) cast hex frequently.

The stuns in VP aren't a big deal because you can either have aoe down as dk or pally, or charge them if you're druid or war. The cyclone is not on #1 target, so if you're keeping hate it's not an issue. The dragon breath you're right about, but it's not exactly a big deal because those are small pulls of really weak mobs. Hex is same as cyclone, as is the poly in GB, they won't cast it on tank unless he doesn't have hate.


Take the hardest parts of cata 5 mans, make them undead so cc options are super limited, and make them a gauntlet where if you wipe you start over the entire instance. That's pretty much the first part of HoR in a nutshell.

[Kaylia]

I've heard the "let other classes tank!" idea a million times, it won't help. People who want to tank roll a class who can tank. People who don't want to tank won't suddenly feel like tanking if their class is given a tank spec. There might be a small spike in tank rerolls if another tanking class was introduced because it's something new, but in the end it won't matter. I don't think there's any way to "fix" DPS queue times, though it should naturally get a bit better as content patches are released and heroics become total faceroll and people are less scared to tank them.

There is a huge difference between a new spec that require new gears and another spec that can be used at any time. I've seen people respec to do daily, I've seen respec to do solo content, and I'm sure people would respec to tank heroic if the possibility was available.

I definitely think adding more "Tank" classes is the way to go, but I don't think a simple stance is going to do it. They need to redesign a full tree to make it work and be properly balanced. Which is really the drawback and what would piss people off...losing their favorite tree, or some nonsense.

There is only 3 things to look for when you're trying to balance a tank class: dps, dmg taken, and threat. Everything else is just fluff that make the job more fun to play and unique, but it's not needed.

I'm not against a full tree or anything, but I'm sure these balances issue could be accomplished with minimal change if what you're trying is fix the queue time for tank in heroic.

[Plow]

Extra 31 point talent for demo locks and beast hunters:

Blahbhiddy Dohicky

Reduces the player's damage dealt by 60%, but the damage reduced is converted to threat for the pet at triple the rate.


Bam, 2 new tanks that don't even have to relearn their classes really. Toss in a few talents here and there feral style that give the option to keep the current version of bm/demo or use a tank spec, or a hybrid of the 2.


And it doesn't even have some kind of fucked up pvp consequences.

[Tajin]

Bam, except 99% of the hunter population has the I.Q. of a potatoe

[Kaylia]

Extra 31 point talent for demo locks and beast hunters:

Blahbhiddy Dohicky

Reduces the player's damage dealt by 60%, but the damage reduced is converted to threat for the pet at triple the rate.


Bam, 2 new tanks that don't even have to relearn their classes really. Toss in a few talents here and there feral style that give the option to keep the current version of bm/demo or use a tank spec, or a hybrid of the 2.


And it doesn't even have some kind of fucked up pvp consequences.

Yeah, that's exactly what I had in mind. A stance (something like righteous fury) that lower dmg output considerably in favor of threat (and while we are at it, dmg mitigation could scale with gear level). Add a shared hp pool to help healer, and give them a misdirect taunt that can only be used in tanking mode.

Pvp? Nothing is going to change
Worried about Raid content? Have boss fear/dispel tank pet.
Old content? Who fuck cares...and plate can already solo pretty much anything.

Bam, except 99% of the hunter population has the I.Q. of a potatoe

I laughed, so true.

With two more class being able to tank easily, I think the queue time would be reduced considerably and kicking awful tank might be a decent alternative.

[Correction]

Extra 31 point talent for demo locks and beast hunters:

Blahbhiddy Dohicky

Reduces the player's damage dealt by 60%, but the damage reduced is converted to threat for the pet at triple the rate.

Oops, Tenacity pet taunts are 1m cooldown, better -50seconds that in this talent.
Oops, Ozruk/Commander Springvale/Erunak/etc, better remove that 90% aoe damage resistance for pets and hope people are good at moving pets manually from 30 yds away.

There are no slam-dunk solutions to the problem, and dumping everything into the 31 point talent seems...extreme.

[Kaylia]

Oops, Tenacity pet taunts are 1m cooldown, better -50seconds that in this talent.
Oops, Ozruk/Commander Springvale/Erunak/etc, better remove that 90% aoe damage resistance for pets and hope people are good at moving pets manually from 30 yds away.

There are no slam-dunk solutions to the problem, and dumping everything into the 31 point talent seems...extreme.

There isnt hundred of way to dump your talents points. You take what you need to accomplish your task and that's it. Considering it's just an offspec, I don't see why it would be a huge issue.

Most problems mentioned could easily be balanced by making the pet behave like a player when its in tank mode (same debuff/dmg taken). Making movement easier would probably the biggest issue, but it's not like there is no solution. You could give them a "mind control" command, you could add a new "stay on top of me > attack when you can" AI, you could have the hunter ride the pet...I don't know, it's not like there is no way around issue like this.

[Plow]

/petfollow

/petattack


it's pretty complicated stuff

[Correction]

Most problems mentioned could easily be balanced by making the pet behave like a player when its in tank mode (same debuff/dmg taken). Making movement easier would probably the biggest issue, but it's not like there is no solution. You could give them a "mind control" command, you could add a new "stay on top of me > attack when you can" AI, you could have the hunter ride the pet...I don't know, it's not like there is no way around issue like this.

The more work you put into making pet classes viable 5-man tanks (pets aren't uncrittable, armor/stam contributions from pet classes to their pets are too low, instant-rebirth abilities on pets would have to share the combat-res cooldown, I can go on and on), the less it makes sense versus modifying the numbers for PUGs (which they did) or smoothing out the content difficulty curve for interrupt/CC-starved group compositions (already done). Pet mobility is not as simple as /petfollow, especially for bosses where LOS can be an issue for positioning.

[Kaylia]

Content difficulty has nothing to do with tank accessibility. DPS are still going to wait forever as long tanks are needed for the queue. It might change when war/pld/dk will be able to tank in dps gears in a few content update, but probably not that much considering how easy it is to gear tank. What you want is more tank queuing, and the only way to accomplish that is to 1) encourage tank to seek twice with reward or 2) allow more people to wear the tank hat.

About pet mobility, just do what I said earlier and allow them to ride/MC their pets if you don't believe it could be accomplished with a few simple AI tweaks. Obviously, adding more potential tank isn't something that can be implemented in a single day, but considering how much Blizzard change all the time, I don't think it's something that would be impossible to do

[edit]
And who cares if the pet can't be revived in a fight? Is it really something that would make or break the class in heroic? If they can keep threat, stay alive, and move around gimmick properly, you have a winning solution.

[FailureMidgard]

I don't buy it. It's not just the ability to tank, it's the responsibility that goes along with it. Most people do not like being thrust into a leadership role, and tanking forces you to do that. You have to know not only your own class, but the CC abilities of every class, the mechanics of every fight, so on and so forth. And, by extension, the propensity to blame everything and anything on the tank when something goes wrong. I don't see a pet tanking class or anything else helping. Like you said, a spec would disappear, people would QQ, and in the end I don't think it's going to suddenly inspire anyone to tank except for the few who like trying out new stuff.

And no, I don't read hunter forums, but loving using the turtle to solo stonecore or VP bosses for mounts =/= loving tanking.

I had a TLDR post, but doubt you want to read it, so I'll summarize:

1. Heroics are easy. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. CC is overrated (even in pugs I don't use it when I'm tanking on my DK), and tanks don't require anything more special than others. I went through a Stonecore where the tank died to every boss of his own fault, and we killed them all fine without a tank.

2. Queues suck, and after Tuesday, they are gonna suck even more. Personally, I already queue tank on my DK even though I think tanking is boring as sin because waiting is worse.

3. People are bad, not hunters. I mean ya, the majority of hunters are bad because that's true with every. single. class. When the vast majority of pug tanks I get are already clueless about CC, ability to dodge shit like Ozruk, have terrible threat, and well, suck at the game, I don't see how having a bad hunter will be any worse. Also, some of us don't suck, and already use the move to (you do know they added that right?) on various fights to accomplish various things...so ya...

[FailureMidgard]

The more work you put into making pet classes viable 5-man tanks (pets aren't uncrittable, armor/stam contributions from pet classes to their pets are too low, instant-rebirth abilities on pets would have to share the combat-res cooldown, I can go on and on), the less it makes sense versus modifying the numbers for PUGs (which they did) or smoothing out the content difficulty curve for interrupt/CC-starved group compositions (already done). Pet mobility is not as simple as /petfollow, especially for bosses where LOS can be an issue for positioning.

Huh? Hunter pets are crit immune.
Also, there's passive tree benefits now that can solve all this. Make beast the tank tree, and make the tree passives change abilities (Tree of Life already changes abilities, shouldn't be hard). The passives can address every major issue that needs to be done right there, and the tree can remain choices/etc/etc. Talent to reduce pet taunt by 17sec per pt (3pts). Talent to increase armor contribution, stam contribution, dodge from agi, w/e...
They already have different abilities from bosses affect pets in different ways...they could make the 31pt talent like someone said and let you ride the pet (and lose dmg) for when it's needed, and be a toggle, or they could take like Ozruk's shatter and make pets take reduced damage from it, but then get a debuff that makes them take 2x physical damage for 30seconds.

I'm not sure where you think this is even related to "modifying the numbers for pugs". We're talking about a 45min queue, which will remain, not the difficulty and interrupt viability of pugs. Taking DPS out of queue and adding tanks shortens queue for everyone, in 2 ways.

[Kaylia]

Taking DPS out of queue and adding tanks shortens queue for everyone

Except tank!

[Tajin]

1. Heroics are easy. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. CC is overrated (even in pugs I don't use it when I'm tanking on my DK), and tanks don't require anything more special than others.

This is the problem, the truth is there are LOADS of groups out there that wipe on the simplest of pulls, for the same if not more reasons (reason: people is bad), CC or no CC, otherwise the nerf to heroics so soon after launch wouldn't exist. Bear AoE tanking isnt as strong (as DK), everyone and their mom rolled a paladin and thinks they can tank (they can't).

Hell niggers still can't do more than 10k dps with 15% buff...

[Intrinsic]

Most of the dps I've run into in heroics have a mix of 333 and 346, usually not enchanted or gemmed, which means that even with a 15% buff they're not gonna hit 10k. Even in mostly 346, quite a few classes barely simulcraft out to more than 10-11k dps on a standard fight with movement.