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[Mayareira]

XII...shallow? Let's see.

- Battle System: The most important aspect of a RPG is its battle system, and XII simply has the best one. Incredible use of proximity, wide variety of weapons that actually have different features other than looks and stats, no battle/field transition, very fluid gameplay...

And most important of all, it actually required you to use your brain. Unlike XIII where all you have to do is to spam X and grind, grind, grind.

World&Dungeons: XII again wins here hands down. Wide, open areas, non-repetitive zones and dungeons, incredible variety in monsters, weather effects that actually has an impact on battles, monsters and even on the weapon type you are using...

Music: Matter of preference, but in my opinion Sakimoto did a wonderful job at XII. It has one of the best tunes I've ever heard in a videogame.

Story: It was influenced heavily by history and it is one of the greatest implementations of the "clash of empires" theme. Patricide? Check. Betreyal (not the way teenager fucktards are used to)? Check. Diplomacy? Check. Big Fish&Small fish concept? Check.

Oh wait..it lacks the shitty "teen trying to get into the pants of other teen" theme. How SHALLOW!

Exploration: Wide open areas&Huge Towns vs....side scrolling....for hours.

lol, did you skip cutscenes too? Granted the story progression is not (except Ch9 and end of 11) in your face WTF HUGE REVELATION but it subtly changes throughout. And compared to 12? lol...

Nope, I've definitely watched the CS that Lightning left Hope and started jumping around....That's the only CS I remember in that 5-6 hour long part of the game.

Good thing there were interesting enemies in 12.

...XII has the best enemy design ever among JRPGs. Incredible marks, non-repetitive zones, non-repetitive enemies, incredibly deep and fun battle system..

And it has a FUCKING T-REX in it.

What is wrong with your TV <_<

Certain dungeons in XIII looks good indeed but the majority of them are plain boring. All I remember is that boring brownish dungeon that took hours to complete.

Of course, that's what FF12 basically is ...

Exactly, XII is a great example of a deep JRPG.

[ArchDizzle]

I really, really like bunny cock, I'm serious I'm obsessed like Elmer Fudd with this shit. SRSLY

Yep.

[Mayareira]

I'm not denying my interest towards the Viera, they should've used them instead of those fucking furries in XIV.

And yes, XII is the best RPG ever....even when you factor in the nostalgia effect of older games.

[Kyo]

Gettin sad in here.

[BRP]

You might wanna split up who you quote, because your post is a mess between three different posters.

You can be immersed in an atmosphere.

I just explained this part and you don't seem to be paying attention to the explanation one way or another. Atmosphere is entirely supplementary no matter where you apply it.

Please check a dictionary if you do not like my uses of the terms; I guarantee I am more intelligent than you.

For what good that lie does you! You can't seem to use any of these words properly. You even manage to screw up the word experience, yet again.

You are talking about depth in game mechanics and I am talking about depth in atmosphere etc. There are many forms of depth ... in terms of an experience, FPSs are shallow. In terms of gameplay, they are not.

"In terms of experience". What is this nonsense!? How is playing a FPS not an experience? Do you not experience a FPS? Now let me help you out here. An entire videogame(all games) is an experience. In terms of experience would be in terms of everything pertaining to playing the game - everything about it.

The collective experience of an above-average competitive FPS game is not going to be shallow unless you've already excelled to the point where no opponents give you much pause. Then you just need to find new opponents or a new FPS.

Yes, there are many forms of depth to found in a videogame. "Game mechanics" is not even a real type of depth, but there are multiple ways in which a game can be complicated. It can demand reflexive or strategic performance or perhaps it has many ways in which the player can meaningfully change the plot. On the other hand storylines certainly be pleasing, but the thing is that it is a videogame. At the end of the day you are talking about playing(or working if it isn't even fun) in order to access these precious storylines. You want to praise FFXIII like it could stand up to the better movies or books(or the decent game stories which have popped up from time to time) of the world go ahead, I won't even bother perusing it despite how stupid that sounds. But the "EXPERIENCE" is going to be a fucking mess. God-forbid the story is typical and boring("tripe") then you just one long boring EXPERIENCE.

I know you somewhat understand this to a point because you continue to separate the game(which you call "gameplay" or "game mechanics") with random things like music, story, or the collective "atmosphere". Of course all of those secondary factors are apart of the experience, it just happens they are indeed secondary.

You'd be surprised how many people

Not really. I know there are a lot of 10 year old girls in this world.

Here to screw up another thread <_>

It takes two to tango. It doesn't matter how one-sided things get.

In forums fiery debate has the opposite effect of "screwing up". So while "u mad" and would like to see me banned from this section or forum, I am glad because this thread is now interesting. This idea can never be appreciated by those who think "everyone's opinions matters".*

*: Everyone's opinions matters unless their opinions say that everyone's opinions doesn't matter. ("Everyone" in this case is of course the majority. If you disagree with the majority you are derailing. Even if the thread is about "personal" critical appraisal! Nice logic there hiro-whoever you are!)


Also FFXII vs FFXIII is an impossible comparison to avoid. It certainly isn't off-topic. Probably not the most appropriate comparison to make, but it is basically the only one being made at all. (For the record I didn't like FFXII at all, but I could see how someone would feel how FFXIII took a few steps back)

[Mayareira]

Square Enix ditched the old-fashioned, Dragon Quest-type of battle system in XII. Just when we thought that we finally got rid of the clumsy ATB, they decided to return back to it.

This is the main reason why XIII is always compared to XII. In terms of exploration and battle system, XIII is a huge stepback.

Why did we have ATB back then?

Because older generation consoles were limited in terms of technology. Battle Arena/pre-rendered field transitions were necessary and proximity wasn't possible. ATB should've died along with the necessity of pre-rendered -> 3D battle transitions.

But nope, apperantly nostalgia freaks still dig it hard. What was the stupid argument? "XII didn't feel like FINAL FANTASY!!!"

[Tyrath]

And yes, XII is the best RPG ever....even when you factor in the nostalgia effect of older games.

It's one thing to argue about 12 and 13 and it's another to say that. Neither FF12 or 13 are anywhere close to such a title.

[Mayareira]

It's one thing to argue about 12 and 13 and it's another to say that. Neither FF12 or 13 are anywhere close to such a title.

Not really an argument, that's just my personal opinion.

[Raen Ryong]

and XII simply has the best one. Incredible use of proximity, wide variety of weapons that actually have different features other than looks and stats, no battle/field transition, very fluid gameplay...

AoE attacks that you can't avoid because they simply cover your screen in an animation, useless Espers, a lot of weapons most of which are not all that useful...

And most important of all, it actually required you to use your brain. Unlike XIII where all you have to do is to spam X and grind, grind, grind.

FFXII required you to use your brain? Gambit + autopilot, enjoy. I'd love to see you just spam X your way past the harder encounters without being higher level in 13.

Story: It was influenced heavily by history and it is one of the greatest implementations of the "clash of empires" theme. Patricide? Check. Betreyal (not the way teenager fucktards are used to)? Check. Diplomacy? Check. Big Fish&Small fish concept? Check.

Oh wait..it lacks the shitty "teen trying to get into the pants of other teen" theme. How SHALLOW!

The majority of the characters experience almost zero development (hi Penelo) and screentime. You barely face off against the imperials at all so they do not feel like a threat at all (compare with the Sanctum in 13). It was very obvious that Vayne was going to kill his father - it's a very common action for villains to take.

The lack of romance is not a problem as such but it did bother me. Rasler/Ashe were not convincing in the slightest and whilst a story does not need an underlying romantic theme, it can add a lot to the game in terms of drama etc.

Nope, I've definitely watched the CS that Lightning left Hope and started jumping around....That's the only CS I remember in that 5-6 hour long part of the game.

The main characters all lose everything (or almost everything) and ascend through dramatic revelations (typically signified by an Eidolon battle) and their relationships with each other as well as their motives change throughout the story (see: Sazh/Vanille, Lightning/Snow, Lightning/Hope, Hope/Snow ... etc). How do they change in 12? There is SOME change but it's very, very minor and underplayed.

...XII has the best enemy design ever among JRPGs. Incredible marks, non-repetitive zones, non-repetitive enemies, incredibly deep and fun battle system..

I disagree strongly. Each zone is more or less as repetitive as one in 13: your objective in either case is "get from A to B". More paths does not make it any less repetitive, and in either case you fight the same small pocket of mobs for a large amount of time (most of which are skilled mainly in the Attack command)!

Personally one of the reasons I didn't like it much was because of the battle system; it just lacks any kind of "oomph". All of the battles feel very "meh". I like the way 13 builds momentum by use of its stagger system.

Exactly, XII is a great example of a deep JRPG.

If I wanted to wander around areas for hours and hours, I would've bought a sandbox game. I wanted a true experience - 13 provided this, 12 did not.

Not arguing with BRP. Brick wall...

[Kainos]

7/10

I would have scored much lower if not for the amazing graphics and enjoyable battle system. Story was shit, confusing at most times and underwhelming. I mean it wasn't so bad that I couldn't watch just nowhere near as epic as previous offerings.

The antagonist Balthoser or w/e his name is was terrible as a villain. Also it gets annoying killing him a million times and he still lives on to ruin more cut scenes.

I don't watch anime and I'm getting real tired of the JP infused anime into white western RPG characters. From the clothing to the hairstyles to Vanille's sqeaky voice, I mean if your going to make it look and act JP then just give them all black hair, pale skin and slanted eyes... let's cut the crap.

Maybe I'm old school b/c I like Castle's, Dragons, swords and shields in my RPG's. But as I grow older I don't know if the FF series is getting worse or I'm just stuck in the glory days of SNES - PS1 RPG's.

Even with my nitpicks It was a beautifully presented and gorgeous game. At times I was floored and in love with everything on the screen and other times just disgusted with the FF series and shaking my head at the storyline. I feel like they rushed the end, like it could have been fleshed out to be more epic but someone at SE headquaters just put the hammer down and said finish this game so we can sell it.

[Ansems]

XII...shallow? Let's see.

- Battle System: The most important aspect of a RPG is its battle system, and XII simply has the best one. Incredible use of proximity, wide variety of weapons that actually have different features other than looks and stats, no battle/field transition, very fluid gameplay...

And most important of all, it actually required you to use your brain. Unlike XIII where all you have to do is to spam X and grind, grind, grind.

World&Dungeons: XII again wins here hands down. Wide, open areas, non-repetitive zones and dungeons, incredible variety in monsters, weather effects that actually has an impact on battles, monsters and even on the weapon type you are using...

Music: Matter of preference, but in my opinion Sakimoto did a wonderful job at XII. It has one of the best tunes I've ever heard in a videogame.

Story: It was influenced heavily by history and it is one of the greatest implementations of the "clash of empires" theme. Patricide? Check. Betreyal (not the way teenager fucktards are used to)? Check. Diplomacy? Check. Big Fish&Small fish concept? Check.

Oh wait..it lacks the shitty "teen trying to get into the pants of other teen" theme. How SHALLOW!

Exploration: Wide open areas&Huge Towns vs....side scrolling....for hours.



Nope, I've definitely watched the CS that Lightning left Hope and started jumping around....That's the only CS I remember in that 5-6 hour long part of the game.



...XII has the best enemy design ever among JRPGs. Incredible marks, non-repetitive zones, non-repetitive enemies, incredibly deep and fun battle system..

And it has a FUCKING T-REX in it.



Certain dungeons in XIII looks good indeed but the majority of them are plain boring. All I remember is that boring brownish dungeon that took hours to complete.



Exactly, XII is a great example of a deep JRPG.

the battle system was good in 12, but consider the fact that the game didn't have a job system, everyone had cure, haste, protect etc etc. With the gambit system All I had to do was stand there and wait til they kill the mob and move on.

Zones in 13 are non-repetitive as a matter of fact in 13 you don't repeat zones til the end. (cept in between character change in the begining). Pretty sure you go back to that desert like 3 times and like a whole bunch of plains.

Are you srsly going there? srsly? I don't even care about game music cause its always lame. 13 changed that.

there was only 2 main characters in 12, the lack of details about them makes it a bad story line, 13 showed many side of all 6 characters, Lightning I thought she was so bad ass and at one point I saw her weakness when she admitted being wrong trying to go to Eden. Shit even 10 had better character development.

Edit: I remember fighting the final boss in 12, I left the room for 3 mins and all of them were still alive when I came back.

[Tyrath]

Not really an argument, that's just my personal opinion.

I guess just the way you said it made it sound as if you were stating a fact, not an opinion. If it's your favorite RPG ever, yeah sure I don't care lol.

[Mayareira]

FFXII required you to use your brain? Gambit + autopilot, enjoy. I'd love to see you just spam X your way past the harder encounters without being higher level in 13.

Did you even play the game? Gambits don't play it for you, they are there for handling the routine, shitty tasks automatically.

Your fucking mage nailing packed monsters that are 10 levels below you automatically and I absolutely see no problem with that. Your tank provoking multiple enemies and I again see no problem with that.

vs.

*Player encounters a bug that's 20 levels below him*

------******Battle Arena Transition******-------

*Battle music starts playing*

*Players hits "auto-attack"*

*You fucking one shot the bug*

------******Victory Fanfare******------ (for killing a bee)

-----*****Loot Screen*****-------

x1000 on a side-scrolling, one dimensional dungeon. How immersive, gives you complete control huh?

The majority of the characters experience almost zero development (hi Penelo) and screentime. You barely face off against the imperials at all so they do not feel like a threat at all (compare with the Sanctum in 13). It was very obvious that Vayne was going to kill his father - it's a very common action for villains to take.

The lack of romance is not a problem as such but it did bother me. Rasler/Ashe were not convincing in the slightest and whilst a story does not need an underlying romantic theme, it can add a lot to the game in terms of drama etc.

Whenever I get into an XII vs. whatever argument someone always comes up with a bullshit about characters and shows Penelo as an example. Basch is one of the best characters in entire series, Balthier is fucking awesome...Fran and Ashe are both solid characters...

but wait, there is PENELO! (hi penelo). Penelo = "The majority of the characters".

Same old shitty "Quina" argument.

The main characters all lose everything (or almost everything) and ascend through dramatic revelations (typically signified by an Eidolon battle) and their relationships with each other as well as their motives change throughout the story (see: Sazh/Vanille, Lightning/Snow, Lightning/Hope, Hope/Snow ... etc). How do they change in 12? There is SOME change but it's very, very minor and underplayed.

Oh dear, how original. Guess what, 70% of RPG's out there involves a character losing everything at some point. Their villages burn, their family gets killed, king gets betrayed yada yada.

Relationship between Vayne and Larse was very well written, also leaves some mystery for the player (you don't see this in shitty old fashioned JRPGs). Same with Dalmasca and its sovereignty, Ashe's position, Basch and his past...I can go on and on. Judge Gabranth and other side villains...

vs. what? Who was the villain in XIII? Baltholomeas? I don't even fucking remember its name. All I remember is a fat fuck turning into a fatter fuck everyime you fight him.

Final boss of XIII = Adamantoise.

I disagree strongly. Each zone is more or less as repetitive as one in 13: your objective in either case is "get from A to B". More paths does not make it any less repetitive, and in either case you fight the same small pocket of mobs for a large amount of time (most of which are skilled mainly in the Attack command)!

Personally one of the reasons I didn't like it much was because of the battle system; it just lacks any kind of "oomph". All of the battles feel very "meh". I like the way 13 builds momentum by use of its stagger system.

lol, OK.

the battle system was good in 12, but consider the fact that the game didn't have a job system, everyone had cure, haste, protect etc etc. With the gambit system All I had to do was stand there and wait til they kill the mob and move on.

The game does the repetitve tasks for you. It definitely doesn't make you go through the entire battle transition/fanfare bullshit for a bug that's 10 levels below you and its pretty awesome.

Zones in 13 are non-repetitive as a matter of fact in 13 you don't repeat zones til the end. (cept in between character change in the begining). Pretty sure you go back to that desert like 3 times and like a whole bunch of plains.

Let me remind you the completely unique towns and zones in the game...

Ozmone Plains
Giza Plains
Zertinan Caverns
Tomb of Raithwall
Mosphoran Highwaste
Archades Empire (the way they modelled the empire itself, difference between rich and poor, lively city)
Eruyt Village
Cerobbi Steppe
Balfonheim Port
Henne Mines
The Feywood....whatever, I'll just post the map.

http://twobrothersandasister.com/wp-...-World-Map.jpg

Certain large maps are divided into zones because its fucking ps2 and its terrible at large maps.

Towns, dungeons, field areas....in terms of these it is the most unique Final Fantasy game ever....vs. a fucking side-scroller that doesn't have a single townfolk that you can speak to. When you are in archades, you feel their power and technolological advantage. When you are at a fishing port near Dalmasca, you feel their modesty. When you are at a fishing port of Archades Empire, you feel their wealth. NPC dialogues were phenomenally written, side quests were mind blowing.

vs. what? What does XIII have?

Side-scrolling in same dungeon over and over again until Gran Pulse. They look eye candy, but have no originality at all. Just modelled differently...no exploration, no interaction, full of invisible walls...I thought we were in 21st century.

there was only 2 main characters in 12, the lack of details about them makes it a bad story line, 13 showed many side of all 6 characters, Lightning I thought she was so bad ass and at one point I saw her weakness when she admitted being wrong trying to go to Eden. Shit even 10 had better character development.

So did Cloud, Squall, Zidane and Tidus. Original? I don't think so.

Basch (the character originally planned as the main character) develops rather nicely without dwelling in cliches, so does Ashe, Balthier and Fran.

I'm not saying XIII is a bad game, but calling it "deep" is just...lol. After I've seen XII, I thought XIII would be revolutionary with ps3's power behind but it turned out to take multiple steps backwards.

[dejet]

Few things that people seem to be missing. Weather you like XII or XIII. They are not the same, that is the point of almost every FF game. They are made to be their own.

FF12 I had a blast playing, I never really did understand why people gave so much hate to it. The game was fucking great. I wont go much into it, as this is about FF13.

BRP I really think you need to go back to the old school RPG's they had a much deeper meaning.
*Dejet kicks BRP in the nuts*

good old days? Or to far back for your liking?

FF13 had its week points, as did 12 and any rpg that I can think of; 13 took way to long to get to the *good* parts of the game. Auto attack can be turned off to make things a little better. later fights made you use a team set up(if you did not grind)

Like any RPG if you grind to much it gets dull as dirt the fights, 13 had a good set up, but I think they should of made you max out sooner.

overall the game was good, I liked very much the use of flash backs. They did a great job with that, tho not many speak about it I guess. I loved that about the game. Side CS's where fun, shit after beating the game I found it funny with Hope messing around with Vanille.

The detail was there, but you had to look for it/stumble into it.

[Raen Ryong]

How immersive, gives you complete control huh?

The speed of the transitions barely breaks down on the immersiveness, and the control inside the battle itself is ~equal to or greater than that of FF12's (not only do your roles determine your actions in battle, but they determine your overall strategy (since Sentinel increases damage resistance to all, not just themselves... etc)).

Basch is one of the best characters in entire series, Balthier is fucking awesome...Fran and Ashe are both solid characters...

I don't remember much about Basch at all. Balthier I liked a lot. Ashe I never liked because the game doesn't properly make you see Archadia as a threat, meaning the nuances of her motives in her quest are quite flat. Fran: what are her motives, how does her character develop (both personally and in terms of relationship with others), etc? I found her very forgettable.

Oh dear, how original. Guess what, 70% of RPG's out there involves a character losing everything at some point. Their villages burn, their family gets killed, king gets betrayed yada yada.

Breaking the mold isn't that effective if the resulting game is boring and lacks drama. Their redemptions in 13 are very dramatic on the whole.

Relationship between Vayne and Larse was very well written, also leaves some mystery for the player (you don't see this in shitty old fashioned JRPGs). Same with Dalmasca and its sovereignty, Ashe's position, Basch and his past...I can go on and on. Judge Gabranth and other side villains...

I can't fully address this point because I do not recall all of the intricacies of the subplots. Isn't Basch's past (on the whole) made very clear when you get him as a character though?

vs. what? Who was the villain in XIII? Baltholomeas? I don't even fucking remember its name. All I remember is a fat fuck turning into a fatter fuck everyime you fight him.

Final boss of XIII = Adamantoise.

Has been covered many times, but the main enemy of XIII is a concept, not a physical being. Barthandalus just happens to represent this. And guess what - he still had much more presence than any other villain in 12!

And lol at final boss of 13 = Adamantoise... first of all, Long Gui. Second of all, if you want to pull that card... there is absolutely no farming or luck involved in ff12 whatsoever amirite?! We can conveniently ignore ultimate weapons.

Towns, dungeons, field areas....in terms of these it is the most unique Final Fantasy game ever....vs. a fucking side-scroller that doesn't have a single townfolk that you can speak to. When you are in archades, you feel their power and technolological advantage. When you are at a fishing port near Dalmasca, you feel their modesty. When you are at a fishing port of Archades Empire, you feel their wealth. NPC dialogues were phenomenally written, side quests were mind blowing.

Towns are not a necessity! Archadia was an incredibly tedious experience. Large areas are just disguising the fact that you are still heading from A to B. Yes, they are better - but not phenomenally so. There is just an illusion of such.

And are you suggesting that all areas of FF13 are not unique? In terms of location, each chapter is distinctly different.

NPC dialogues were phenomenally written, side quests were mind blowing.

I will agree that FF12 has an amazing script. I don't see how side quests were "mind blowing" though; better than 13's? Easily. Mindblowing? Nowhere near that good.

[Rhyis.]

Shits serious up in here.



I think people are arguing two different arguments about FF stories. XII's story was essentially purely based on the plot itself, and seeing it from multiple perspectives and angles. Character development took a backseat. XIII's story is 100% character based. There really isn't even a real plot to be honest. You start at "A", and end up at "B". For most of the game, neither you nor the characters even know what "B" is.

The story telling is so different you honestly can't even compare the two. You can dislike one or the other, but a direct comparison makes no damn sense at all.

[Raen Ryong]

Super srs.

[Eggroll]

FFXII required you to use your brain? Gambit + autopilot, enjoy. I'd love to see you just spam X your way past the harder encounters without being higher level in 13.

This is one criticism which I always see yet cannot comprehend. How exactly are gambits autopilot compared to the system employed in FFXIII, where you can't control 2/3 of your party? The paradigm system is incredibly simple, and the same strategy works for every single mob in the game, from mobs in chapter 1 up to Long Guis. If you're about to take a big damage attack, just switch to SEN x3, if your buffs are wearing, switch to SYN x3, etc. You almost never have to change your paradigms at all. Conversely, I found myself tailoring my gambits to certain boss fights, and whenever you wanted to override the gambit system you were allowed to do so. Meanwhile in FFXIII, if you want protect you usually have to sit through a couple of castings of Vigilance, Enspells, etc.

[Raen Ryong]

Using 3x (same role) is not always more effective than mixing roles, and it is purely an extreme postgame consideration (when you will have 3 of a given role that isn't COM, RAV or MED).

if you want protect you usually have to sit through a couple of castings of Vigilance, Enspells, etc.

Not if you use 3x SYN as you suggested above! If certain buffs are VITAL, you must either use more than one SYN or make yourself the SYN in question. This is a flaw though, I agree.

While I also agree Gambit is an excellent system, it is no less "autopilot" than Auto-Attack. A combination of the two would be ideal...

[Kyo]

FF 12 is the Steve Nash of FF games.