Do Gamers Want Simpler Games?

[Raen Ryong]

I'm interested in what development Fran had (not trolling, I mean this in a non-acidic way); I can remember most of the characters but she is rather indistinct to me.

EDIT: I thought the story was quite bad even for the political side of it though; I think FFT presented a fairly interesting political story until it got bogged down too much with the Lucavi for the purposes of contrast whereas I found 12's quite generic "guy kills his father to gain power". I did find Vayne an interesting character until you didn't see much of him though.

[Corrderio]

This is true for me as well. But I think it's more a function of being older, less impressionable, and having more shit going on than that the games are actually getting less memorable.

Maybe they are though... I can still vividly remember playing Xenogears when it first came out, and the whole story for the most part...

Could be it as well I guess.

[TheDirtyHobo]

The fun of water stages usually is summed up as beating the level then shouting curses back at the console.

Pure anger is good because it makes overcoming the challenge even more 'worth it'. To me at least.

I don't see how holding nothing but contempt for a certain portion of a game somehow makes it fun when you complete it. I hate going through a game I love and thinking "Ugh, I have to do part-X again soon." A lot of times it drags down what was otherwise a fantastic game. And the majority of water levels aren't difficult, they're just annoying and monotonous.

Lol, no. Normal and easy mode is for flailing around and being stupid, if you wanted to play on harder modes, normal mode would be for learning enemy patterns. By the time you reach the hardest mode, you should know exactly who is doing what and how you're reacting to it.

If you really want to play like that, then have fun spending the next 15 years of your life trying to figure out how to cheese your way through the hardest modes. I'm sure its working out well.

Well, I'll be the first to admit that those genres aren't my forte. I hardly ever complete them on any difficulty past hard (one notch above normal, since those games usually have multiple levels of hard mode). More power to the people that can do it, but when it stops being fun and starts being work is when I stop playing.

[Antithesis]

loollolololololololololololololololololololo. 12 had probably the worst character development in the entire fucking genre. The only characters that were even slightly developed were Ashe and Basch. Everyone else was completely worthless. The story sucked too btw.

If only Domon were here.

[BRP]

Pain is just another form of pleasure.

Like I said before, it is difficulty which allows us to become better, more powerful players. Fun is that growth. Now losing constantly just reminds you of your weakness as a player and that can be a turn off. Only the dedicated players("hardcore") can ENJOY that kind of hardship as crazy as that might sound. (Efficient workers can only ENDURE it, not ENJOY it).

[TheDirtyHobo]

Pain is just another form of pleasure.

Like I said before, it is difficulty which allows us to become better, more powerful players. Fun is that growth. Now losing constantly just reminds you of your weakness as a player and that can be a turn off. Only the dedicated players("hardcore") can ENJOY that kind of hardship as crazy as that might sound. (Efficient workers can only ENDURE it, not ENJOY it).

I understand this, and I agree with it to an extent, but the whole 'low-hanging fruit' principle is my main argument against it. Sure, you can work as a landscaper or construction worker and do hard labor, and you see the direct rewards of what your hard work resulted in, or you can take some generic office job where you put in 2 hours of useless work a day and surf the internet for the other 6, and either way, you still get paid. And I'm not saying always go for the simplest and most basic fun, but some trees just aren't worth climbing no matter how delicious the apple is.

Trying to beat Left 4 Dead campaigns on Expert was tremendously hard, but I hardly ever felt the "Wow, this is bullshit" feeling I do with a lot of FPS games on their hardest difficulties. When I finally did finish them, I felt like I had actually accomplished something that you couldn't just stumble through. Playing MW2 on Veteran, I felt like I was trying to climb a skyscraper for a single grape, so I never bothered to keep trying until I actually beat it.

What I'm saying is that it's useless to only try and play the most difficult games when there's so many 'low-hanging' games out there that can be just as fun, even if you don't feel the same sense of accomplishment afterwords.

[Zeb]

Why would a player want to simplify a game? Is it because they can't play it otherwise? Too difficult and they do not care enough to overcome that level of difficulty? Pretty much the only reason I can think of.

That would be the biggest reason I can think of, especially younger players or players newer to a genre. But I can also imagine there are a number of gamers out there with handicaps that love to play games, but can use some simplification to help get thier gaming fix.

Pain is just another form of pleasure.

Not everyone is a masochist.

[BRP]

But I can also imagine there are a number of gamers out there with handicaps that love to play games, but can use some simplification to help get thier gaming fix.

lol! Special Olympics meet Special Evo2010.

I kind of throw this in with "new gamers". See it as one reason. (Simplify games so simpler gamers can play them). So there are no other reasons right?

Not everyone is a masochist.

Of course. Cowards are not and people without passions are not. Though I am sure on some level they are, but its very subdued.

EDIT: Though... masochism is more about humiliation than pain. Let's just pretend this is about pain-lovers only, okay?

[Hiryo]

Dont forget that simply games mean more fun per unit of energy spent on the game. Example: the average gamer may not find max'ing a character out on an RPG to be very fun, but beating an action-RPG like idk Darksiders(anything thats action + simple leveling system) to be freaking sweet.

Less work, more fun.

(I don't necessarily agree with the above statement)

[sephir]

I think the Tales series for the most part does an excellent job at making simple games work well. They are straight forward but yet offer a whole world of extras in the form of quests, sidemissions and subplots. Tales never makes the world too complex, and lays out everything in a well organized manner.

[Tekoa]

Personally I want to know if there would be a trade off associated with a "simpler game." If I lost a few side quests or extra dungeons but gained a camera that didn't make me want to rage quit, I'd be all for it.

Simpler games doesn't have to mean old school games. It could just mean a system without 20+ variations in combo's and moves per weapon with 5+ weapons to change between.

[Mayareira]

loollolololololololololololololololololololo. 12 had probably the worst character development in the entire fucking genre. The only characters that were even slightly developed were Ashe and Basch. Everyone else was completely worthless. The story sucked too btw.

Chash of Empires theme and empire politics are apperantly too heavy for the typical non-stop masturbating homo character e-love lover Sephiroth worshipper, stinky teenager RPG audience. They are still asking for a faggot looking socially inept hero with a sword bigger than Rocco Siffredi's penis.

No other RPG can ever get close to XII. If you don't like XII, or at least fail to appreciate what it achieved and how it revolutionized RPGs you are probably a substandard gamer. Now go back to your shitty old-fashioned overly simplified ATB.

[Kayos]

Tales is a good series like you say, not overly complex, yet still very enjoyable. I liked FFXII personally, maybe not as much as some other final fantasy's but I did enjoy it very much. I was deep into FFXI by that point, so some of the similarities were enjoyable.

I do think that the story was decent, it just felt melodramatic at times. Character development seemed spot on imo. I mean I can't remember a video game character as cool as Balthier was in that game.

As long as some of the characters are memorable, I consider it a success as far as development goes. I mean its not like you usually have to care for or play with all the cast of characters (except in FFXIII, which is one of my main gripes).

[Zeb]

lol! Special Olympics meet Special Evo2010.

I kind of throw this in with "new gamers". See it as one reason. (Simplify games so simpler gamers can play them). So there are no other reasons right?

New and more specifically young gamers will always be a significant portion of the market. And just because they're new/young doesn't mean developers shouldn't put effort into making a quality game that everyone can enjoy. Btw not all handicapped people are the mentally challenged kind. You wouldn't continue to play games if you lost your hand in a car accident?

You've had the benefit of growing up with games where games have gotten more complex as you've gotten older. Wolfenstein/Doom moves on to Quake/Unreal and that moves on to MW2 and BC2. Other genres have also gotten more complicated as the industry has been around longer. Our generation of gamers shouldn't be the only ones pandered to by the developers.

I think casual players enjoy playing their games as much as hardcore players. A child might enjoy 'The Wizard of Oz,' as much as an adult, even though they most likely won't grasp any of the deeper meanings or symbolisms in the book. The book is presented in simple terms, but there lies those more complicated layers underneath.

Some of the most enjoyable games like othello, go and chess are very simple to learn. I think most people would have a harder time learning and have a less enjoyable time when they lose very quickly playing against a master at a game compared to playing against someone just a little bit better than themselves, where they can see more easily where they are going wrong.

EDIT: Though... masochism is more about humiliation than pain. Let's just pretend this is about pain-lovers only, okay?

And it's not humiliating to lose 30 seconds into a game?

[Raen Ryong]

Badly executed Chash of Empires theme and middle-age politics are apperantly too boring

ftfy. The execution was incredibly dull, regardless of the actual content of the story.

EDIT: Clash of Empires is an awesome theme but they made it as boring as humanly possible here since you are basically always on the sidelines. To see interesting Clash of Empires themed games, try Suikoden.

They are still asking for a faggot looking socially inept hero with a sword bigger than Rocco Siffredi's penis.

We're looking for a memorable hero with character development. In case you hadn't noticed, heroes like Cloud/Squall/Tidus come under a lot of scrutiny.

No other RPG can ever get close to XII. If you don't like XII, or at least fail to appreciate what it achieved and how it revolutionized RPGs you are probably a substandard gamer. Now go back to your shitty old-fashioned overly simplified ATB.

It revolutionised RPGs? How many RPGs have been using its traits? How has it influenced RPGs as a whole? And thanks, I'll take my ATB over dull unstrategic autopilot fighting.

[Mayareira]

I'll take my ATB over dull unstrategic autopilot fighting.

Jesus fucking christ, weren't you fapping at XIII's battle system? you know, the one you do nothing but hitting "auto-attack" and use the abilities you earn at the very beginning of the game till the end?

Gambits don't play the fucking game for you, they just handle the routine tasks like casting provoke, AoE-nuking a group of stuff that are 10 levels below you and so on.

Auto-pilot? Its actually the ONLY RPG that gives you such a complete control over your characters, including proximity.

[Raen Ryong]

Attacking proximity, fair play - handled better by 12.

Defence proximity however is strongly negated by the fact the most dangerous attacks in the game blast the screen with an inescapable AoE complete with minicutscene.

Using the same abilities throughout the game is both a good thing and a bad thing - on one hand, it can cause feelings of lack of progression. On the other hand, it means that the very frequent "issue" of RPGs becomes a non-issue: obsolescence. How often do you use Fire/Fira when you have Firaga, etc? FF13 provides valid reason to use all tiers of magic throughout (with the exception of the healing magics at postgame, admittedly).

[Mayareira]

Using the same abilities throughout the game is both a good thing and a bad thing - on one hand, it can cause feelings of lack of progression. On the other hand, it means that the very frequent "issue" of RPGs becomes a non-issue: obsolescence. How often do you use Fire/Fira when you have Firaga, etc? FF13 provides valid reason to use all tiers of magic throughout (with the exception of the healing magics at postgame, admittedly).

Its called an "upgrade". How often do people use typewriters today?

[Raen Ryong]

A greater number of useful abilities can be thought of as better than a lesser number of useful abilities. I personally hold no problems with either system when they're executed well.

[TheDirtyHobo]

No other RPG can ever get close to XII. If you don't like XII, or at least fail to appreciate what it achieved and how it revolutionized RPGs you are probably a substandard gamer. Now go back to your shitty old-fashioned overly simplified ATB.

I liked FFXII, but I'm sorry, I'm definitely going to have to ask for an explanation on that one. Take your time, I'll be making some popcorn in preparation for a good show.