Do Gamers Want Simpler Games?

[Mayareira]

If FF7 was a movie that didn't rely on special effects and didn't have the title "Final Fantasy" on it, it'd end up in the bottom 100 of imdb.

Story expectations from books/movies and video games are entirely different. Certain games like FF12 definitely raised the bar for VGs, but the industry itself is still dwelling at a substandard level with overly simplified plots. Majority of them target teenager audience though so...

[Xno Kappa]

If any FF was a movie that didn't rely on special effects and didn't have the title "Final Fantasy" on it, it'd end up in the bottom 100 of imdb.

ftfy.

[Elcura]

Why is it that any time someone mentions FFXII the topic suddenly becomes all about who did and didn't like it? It's not like this argument hasn't happened 1000 times before.

[Xno Kappa]

Because you have the same people hell bent on changing each others minds.

[Raen Ryong]

I have found books which I enjoy more plotwise than games, but very rarely a film. I don't enjoy watching films at all because they tend to be incredibly weak in the plot department and overall generic.

[Kurp]

Do you watch anything other than shitty comedies or Bay/Bruckheimer type films?

[Raen Ryong]

I barely watch any films really; one of my least favourite activities. The only film I've enjoyed in a long time was The Dark Knight. I don't think you can't really say a game's plot is bad because it would make a bad film ... equally, a good film would make a bad game. Two different styles of story presentation and involvement (of the audience); I just think the game side of it is far superior.

[BRP]

I barely watch any films really; one of my least favourite activities. The only film I've enjoyed in a long time was The Dark Knight. I don't think you can't really say a game's plot is bad because it would make a bad film ... equally, a good film would make a bad game. Two different styles of story presentation and involvement (of the audience); I just think the game side of it is far superior.

Jesus CHRIST

The only reason I don't get in arguments about specific storylines in videogames(I only argue about their place in games) because my taste in movies(and books) is not developed(compared to games, anyway). But you don't even watch movies as much as I do! And the only movie you watched recently was a goddamn action film! Of course I was able to conclude that FFXIII's story sucked and you were not. I suspected this anyway, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

I just think the game side of it is far superior

Thank you for sharing the depth of your ignorance and lack of experience before saying bullshit like this. It is much healthier for the audience.

Next up Raen tells us masturbation is better than sex.

[Raen Ryong]

What's this? Refusing to believe your opinion could be anything else but cardinal truth again? Shocking development.

EDIT: The Dark Knight isn't the only film I've watched recently, I don't go -that- rarely; just the only one I have enjoyed. Despite being an action film, the plot I found very satisfying as it explored concepts of order vs chaos, "what defines a hero", necessity vs idealism, corruption, etc etc.

Just because I am going against public opinion on these things (bear in mind most of the public do not play games for the story) does not mean I am necessarily completely wrong.

Why don't you go back to tabletop gaming and talk to yourself?

[Alleya]

I do not watch movies, therefore I am in a position to make sweeping statements about them.

[BRP]

the plot I found very satisfying as it explored concepts of order vs chaos, "what defines a hero", necessity vs idealism, corruption, etc etc.

lol, you should read some Batman comics then. Even the shitty ones will do. Of course that wouldn't really make you much more qualified in judging storylines(or use of themes, I guess) because... superhero comics!

Why don't you go back to tabletop gaming and talk to yourself?

PLEASE, like you don't know that my main whereabouts is this forum, not tabletop gaming.

[Xno Kappa]

Argument is retarded to begin with. A good/bad story is not exclusive to any given medium.

[Raen Ryong]

I do not watch many movies at all admittedly, but I haven't seen anyone qualify the general populace's opinion that "movie storylines >>>> all" because it is generally assumed to be correct. Granted such a discussion would be limited because I would probably not have seen many of the films in question, but regardless.

The point this was stemming from is that presentational methods between games and films in terms of their story are greatly different. If you made a (decently long) game with the story content of a film, it would likely be subpar or underdeveloped in the storyline department. If you tried to make a film with the story content of a decent game (in terms of story), you would likely flood the audience with too much information in too short a time.

Games have a much longer time to develop their characters/themes/stories and tell them, and can bolster the effect of plot events by using your direct interaction with the game itself.

Basically, though it's not clear - I'm not trying to say that games are inherently superior to movies in terms of plot, just that from my personal experience they are - and I freely admit this is severely limited. I do not feel you can criticise a game's storyline by saying "it would make a bad film", for I feel film should not be the measuring stick by which things are judged. The methods/techniques are too different.

[Alleya]

You're talking about framing devices as if they define stories. They do not. The reason video game stories would fall flat in movie form is because they are typically juvenile and driven by characters that are more archetypes than people. The reason movies would not work as video games is because they convey characterization through subtlety and complexity, not purely by their reactions to events. Games that have tried to be "cinematic" in the past have mostly failed because they are hamstrung by the gameplay element.

Game stories provide context, and in exceptional cases even motivation (I'm still raving pissed at the Combine from the end of HL2-2). The best video game stories are really just scenarios in the end. Some of them are rich, but even comparing them to movies or books to begin with is silly. That is why people tell you to go elsewhere if you want compelling plot.

[Raen Ryong]

Fair enough, I can understand your viewpoint there.

[Xno Kappa]

The reason any story format fails when you adapt it to another format is because it was never intended for it. This has little to no bearing on the story itself.

[Alleya]

The reason any story format fails when you adapt it to another format is because it was never intended for it. This has little to no bearing on the story itself.

Bridge over the River Kwai, One Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest, The Godfather, Schindler's List, A Beautiful Mind, The Lord of the Rings, No Country for Old Men, Silence of the Lambs

What do all of these have in common? They were books, and they won oscars.

[BRP]

New and more specifically young gamers will always be a significant portion of the market. And just because they're new/young doesn't mean developers shouldn't put effort into making a quality game that everyone can enjoy. Btw not all handicapped people are the mentally challenged kind. You wouldn't continue to play games if you lost your hand in a car accident?

Yes, but I was speaking from the position of an individual gamer, not a corporation which sells games.

Handicaps are handicaps. For my point it really doesn't matter what kind they are you know. If something like that were to happen to me I'd still play games, but I would be wise enough to avoid putting restrictions on others(or the game itself) because of my own difficulties(because all I would be doing is be putting restrictions on myself). Stuff like missing a hand is obvious, but what about differences in intelligence and reaction speed we all have? Don't answer that question.

You've had the benefit of growing up with games where games have gotten more complex as you've gotten older. Wolfenstein/Doom moves on to Quake/Unreal and that moves on to MW2 and BC2. Other genres have also gotten more complicated as the industry has been around longer. Our generation of gamers shouldn't be the only ones pandered to by the developers.

You don't need Wolfenstein(though it is not safe to say stuff like Counterstrike and Team Fortress Classic got replaced by stuff like MW2 or BC2) to be good at MW2. How else can you explain the kids getting into these games... many of which better than people playing games for over 15 years?! You can't really. I mean you mention Chess and Go. Not every kid is restricted to Checkers. You are right in that people would be more comfortable in playing people on their level, but being comfortable isn't a good thing if you want to get better.

I think casual players enjoy playing their games as much as hardcore players.

This is true most of the time. It is all relative to someone's taste and experiences. It only becomes untrue when people become obsessed with grinding and rewards, but that is a different topic altogether. For casual gamers to enjoy their games they must be at least somewhat complex and not simple, to them. The fact there are more intelligent/educated/experienced/etc players who found those games simple doesn't change that. (I mean do you think your mom is an experienced enough gamer to find Wii Sports simple?)

Let us clear up casual and serious(aka Hardcore) right now. Alone these titles do not indicate how many games one someone has played or how developed their tastes are. These describe one's relationship with games(actually, types of games). The casual doesn't push himself or pay attention so he doesn't grow. He can enjoy games(who doesn't?), but his taste might hardly change in 10 years. And there is always the chance games are simply a novelty to him, one which may diminish in time(This is often the case with people who play those STUPID art-games). A serious player is very passionate about games and puts more effort in devouring them, even taking on games(or matches in games) which are very difficult or even overwhelming. This leads to him becoming more critical as he consumes more games. And as usual, these two traits are on a spectrum, it isn't black and white. So the 10 year comment is just an example - but a realistic one. How many people played Final Fantasy VII think Lost Odyssey was AWESOME?

And it's not humiliating to lose 30 seconds into a game?

Did I mention cowards yet? Only "scrubs" feel that kind of shame.

Because sometimes you want just to play a game, relax and be entertained.

I always hate when someone brings this up. As if videogames are more stressful than real-life or something. Like a match of Super Street Fighter IV or a hunt in Monster Hunter is going to make you pass out. If you are seriously getting stressed out you need find a game which is less complicated, but not something you find simple. If you wanted to be brain-dead you should be sleeping or doing drugs, not games.

Of course the only reason you would need to do this is because of what I explained above with casual play.

I dont have the freetime to finish ass-long complicated games.

Length, especially in the context of something like a JRPG, has nothing to do with complexity. You could have cut off 80% of the first-half of FFXIII and the game would not lose a single bit of complexity(and it certainly would have been better). There is no correlation between game length and complexity anyway.

(Also "I don't have time" or "I don't have money" is perhaps worse than "I want to relax". I don't know why you would bother with a dumb-down option on a game you found difficult when tic-tac-toe is always available and always fast.)

The same also goes when you play with friends together, you pick a fun, simple yet very entertaining game, so everyone can jump in easily and not waste your time explaining for 1 hour how the game works... you want to have fun, thats it.

Yeah, this is a real annoyance. "Babysitting" is such a pain in the ass, but hanging out with friends usually makes it a lot of fun anyway. Hanging out with more skillful friends is even better though(regular gaming-rivals eventually becomes friends anyway, at least in arcades).

But really, you aren't even answering my question. Yes, you would bring a simple game to a group of beginners. You would probably still have to dumb your self down or you might just wreck them and who knows, maybe ruin their "fun". Maybe they will be too interested in conversation or what not to even care. (To be fair, if I was friends with a bunch of skaters and they wanted to hang-out by skating it wouldn't be very fun.) (If all else fails bring in some Call of Halo: Modern Onlinefare. Some of my friends can go -15 k/d without getting pissed. Maybe they just get high too much to care.)


EDIT: Everything Alleya says is true, but I still need to say this: A videogame could have great characters(there have been some pretty decent characters in videogames) and nicely shot cutscenes(and ditto) and it still would suck as a movie or book. So yeah, "hamstrung by the gameplay" sounds about right.

[Xno Kappa]

Bridge over the River Kwai, One Flew Over The Cukoo's Nest, The Godfather, Schindler's List, A Beautiful Mind, The Lord of the Rings, No Country for Old Men, Silence of the Lambs

What do all of these have in common? They were books, and they won oscars.

I should've been more specific. Any game to movie adaptation is more then likely going to be garbage due to radical differences between the two mediums, where as in books to movies is a much easier and smoother transition. This is not to say games are incapable of a good plot. Just that books in general will always contain the best stories due to it's long history, giving it a more polished narrative structure in story-telling.

EDIT: Xenogears is the greatest story in RPG history in my opinon, but then again, I'm a sucker for Howard V. Hendrix books which strongly influenced my love for the game. Just an example of books and games being able to complement each other rather then having to compete.

[BRP]

I should've been more specific. Any game to movie adaptation is more then likely going to be garbage due to radical differences between the two mediums, where as in books to movies is a much easier and smoother transition. This is not to say games are incapable of a good plot. Just that books in general will always contain the best stories due to it's long history, giving it a more polished narrative structure in story-telling.

It is more difficult because games are not medium to begin with.