Level 80 sub-jobs and you

[Gosyac]

I think SE's logic behind innin/yonin is this:
Tanks pops yonin, DDs use innin. There is now a 60enmity difference between the two groups. Imagine how easy it would be to hold hate. I think SE doesn't want to make tanking any easier than it already is.

[ronin sparthos]

Counterstance is off the table I guess ._.

[Byrthnoth]

It's actually pretty easy to make a Taru BLM+SMN convert build. Gigant Mantle, Bomb Queen Ring, toss on some Oracle's crap (hands/feet), Yigit legs, Turban, Goliard Body. I also have HP merits, which helps. I don't know the math, but convert HP->MP gear is a waste in convert builds so we may well have the advantage over the races with more HP.

[Darkmagi]

It really irks me how innin/yonin are exclusive yet hasso the most overpowered JA in the game isn't. I don't find a 5min recast either or JA that only works pending on positioning to be all that overpowered. Since nin is like exclusively used as a tank job for people without better alternatives or just eva tanking low nms more or less innin is very lackluster. I could see if nin wasn't so shitty at DD then it might provide a substantial boost. All I'm seeing from SE is that NIN one of FFXIs most bastardized jobs and they want to keep the few bones it was thrown exclusive to itself. /rantoff

[Darkmagi]

I think SE's logic behind innin/yonin is this:
Tanks pops yonin, DDs use innin. There is now a 60enmity difference between the two groups. Imagine how easy it would be to hold hate. I think SE doesn't want to make tanking any easier than it already is.

Almost any job in the game can already reach the hate cap extremely easily, yonin would only make that slightly faster. In fact with how much DD tanking has advanced over standard tanking in many situations I'd say a "tank" needs as much as they can get to even compete in those situations.

[Spira]

It really irks me how innin/yonin are exclusive yet hasso the most overpowered JA in the game isn't. I don't find a 5min recast either or JA that only works pending on positioning to be all that overpowered. Since nin is like exclusively used as a tank job for people without better alternatives or just eva tanking low nms more or less innin is very lackluster. I could see if nin wasn't so shitty at DD then it might provide a substantial boost. All I'm seeing from SE is that NIN one of FFXIs most bastardized jobs and they want to keep the few bones it was thrown exclusive to itself. /rantoff

but it really is.. think of all the jobs with crit ws that would simply abuse Innin for that Crit+30% bonus and some reduced enmity.

Hasso imo was designed to be used by other jobs when subbed to begin with..
for now Sekkanoki is like their USP, but even if they gave it to other jobs, the full power of meditate, plus sekkanoki and SAMs self-SC options make up for this no..?
and their ridiculous ws strength

[Darkmagi]

Well my point was the crit boost isn't broken compared to what /sam gives. I think it would have been a nice way to even out DW vs /sam hasso DDs. Just my opinion atleast.

[Tsuko_Asura]

You also have to consider the possibility that those jobs may not even need the help after the update, depending on how many traits are given 76-99.

[Darkmagi]

Yeah I hope that is the case. Just low hopes with SE and all.

[miokomioko]

I think it's safe to assume that some the more-recently implemented job abilities, that were designed to specifically set a job apart from the rest and give it back its importance, are probably not going to be available from a support-job.

Afflatus, Yo/Innin, whatever~

[Dooom]

Well, where do you differentiate between "new JA" and "designed to set a job apart". I think Sekka was the last update/new JA that Samurai got, yet there's plans to lower that's level so people can get it through /sam. Though I suppose it could be argued that, unlike whm and ninja, Samurai didn't need a new toy to be competitive (or seem as such).

[Byrthnoth]

Well, where do you differentiate between "new JA" and "designed to set a job apart". I think Sekka was the last update/new JA that Samurai got, yet there's plans to lower that's level so people can get it through /sam. Though I suppose it could be argued that, unlike whm and ninja, Samurai didn't need a new toy to be competitive (or seem as such).

Plus, there's the chance that SE sees Sekka as the crutch that will keep 2H weapons competitive with 1H weapons even when every 1H user gets a 15% DoT boost (and for some a TP gain increase) from Dual Wield III, while 2H users keep a 6-hit build and still sacrifice survivability to pull ahead slightly in damage.

[Shadida]

Keep it competitive? I doubt that Dual Wield III will blow 2handers out of the water, considering how much of an advantage 2-handers have now.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Blow out of the water? Perhaps not, but DW3 is a massive upgrade.

[Byrthnoth]

People generally overestimate the difference between a pro 2H DD and a pro 1H DD. Pizza changed a lot of things. The biggest thing that has hurt 1H DD perception is that everyone merits on birds where they can't eat Pizza.

I guess the easiest way to put this is, if we accept that Monk is competitive with 2H DDs right now, then what is a Monk? A Shenlong's Monk has a 56 base damage weapon and 351 Delay. You can count on another 6-7 damage from fSTR as an approximation, so you're looking at 62 base damage per hand. 6% Double Attack rate, 15% Kick attack (D41), and capped Acc give them an effective base damage of 129. So Monks are attacking with about 129 base damage every 351 delay, giving them a DoT of about 22 pre-Haste. Then they get a useful armor set and a useful belt that pretty much caps Haste for them and removes a lot of their accuracy issues.

Now let's look at Ninja. D43 main hand, D34 OAT offhand, 15% DA, maybe 3 from fSTR (no Black Belt), and capped Acc from Usu + Pizza. They're looking at ~103 base damage per attack round (49% DA rate from OAT offhand), so they would need about 280 base delay per attack round to keep up with a Shenlong's Monk. 465 delay pre-dual wield, so they'd need 40% Dual wield to push it down to 280.
They currently have 35% dual wield with Suppa and job traits and look like they'll get at least one or two more job traits on the way to 99 depending how gracious SE is. Toss a decent 8-hit WS into the mix (or even better a 7-hit crit one) and they'd be a serious force. If a Shenlong's Monk can compete with a 2H DD anywhere that it can eat pizza, then they could compete with a 2H DD anywhere that they can eat Pizza.


tl;dr:
It'd require a few major upgrades to make them competitive, but all of the upgrades are just on the "better" side of things we're already assuming are going to happen.

[Rooney]

Only issue is that mnk will more than likely get another tier of martial arts on the way to 99, in which case nin will need even more DW to keep up.

I do agree that it is mainly a perception issue that 1h DD can't keep up though.

[Bikpik]

Just here bored at work, and I'm doing up the differences between 80 Whm/Sch 80 Sch/Whm, as of right now

Whm gets:
Pro/Shell V - 70def/27.34% bonus with capped merits
(Re)RaiseIII- 90% exp restored
Cure V/Curaga IV
Regen III
Sacrifice/Esuna
Auspice
Repose - Light based sleep
Flash/Teleport-Vahzl/Recall-series
2 strat charges - 1 per 2mins
Higher base healing skill
Devotion/Martyr

Sch gets
Pro/Shell IV - 55/21.9% bonus
(Re)Raise II - 75% exp restored
Up to Cure IV
Stormspells - +7 stat with maxed stormsurge
Sleep(II) - 2 Dark based sleeps
Up to Tier IV nukes and Helixes - But as /whm no MAB bonus
4 Strat charges - 1 per min
Higher base enhancing skill
Rapture/Ebullience
Klimaform

What they both will have:
Haste - depending on how potent it will be when subbed
Light/Dark Arts - and the bonuses with those
Both Afflatus - depending on how nerfed when subbed
Cura
All -na and bar- spells
Stoneskin/Blink/Erase
Up to Teleport - Yhoat
Clear Mind IV
Auto-regen
Penury/Parsimony, Celerity/Alacrity, Accession/Manifestation
Drain/Aspir/Dispel/Sleep
Sublimation - Sch can get +2 more, but Whm can wear a +refresh body as well.

I probably missed some, but for the most part this is it. So unless big cures are needed, or you need 15 more def or ~6% more mdef, Sch can probably be used as a main healer again (which I'm not looking forward too personally, I'd rather nuke lol).

Unless I'm missing something big here

[Seanr]

They already said Afflatus was not going to be available.. does anyone read?

[Bikpik]

They already said Afflatus was not going to be available.. does anyone read?

Link?

Cause they don't mention anything here:

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/eve...ex.html?page=5

There's nothing under the Job Adjustments or Level Cap Increase sections.

[Byrthnoth]

Only issue is that mnk will more than likely get another tier of martial arts on the way to 99, in which case nin will need even more DW to keep up.

I do agree that it is mainly a perception issue that 1h DD can't keep up though.

Yeah, but if I was using shenlongs monk just for 2h dd equivalency. I suspect MNK, SAM, and WAR will still be fighting over top dd slot at 99. It is just unclear if WAR will be dual wielding at the moment.