Level 80 sub-jobs and you

[Khamsin]

It doesn't seem that absurd to me to let 80~99 Thieves put a dagger in their off-hand without subbing Ninja.

No, but you have to admit, 2h dual wield for WARs would be pretty awesome!

But, the absurdity of dual wielding great axes aside, one past FF trait they haven't used yet in this game is the "2 hand grip" one, where you use a 1h weapon with both hands (i.e. no shield or offhand weapons) and you get bonuses. Sort of like a 1-handed hasso, and not applicable to dual wield (since offhand has to be empty). Would be interesting to add that in somewhere, for some job.

[Rokku]

No, but you have to admit, 2h dual wield for WARs would be pretty awesome!

But, the absurdity of dual wielding great axes aside, one past FF trait they haven't used yet in this game is the "2 hand grip" one, where you use a 1h weapon with both hands (i.e. no shield or offhand weapons) and you get bonuses. Sort of like a 1-handed hasso, and not applicable to dual wield (since offhand has to be empty). Would be interesting to add that in somewhere, for some job.

I've always kind of pondered why they never added something like that. But then I think about the fact that this is SE, and it'd require a new damage formula to be added into the game based around that one trait/job ability. I wouldn't ever expect to see something of that nature, but it'd be pretty cool.

[Khamsin]

I've always kind of pondered why they never added something like that. But then I think about the fact that this is SE, and it'd require a new damage formula to be added into the game based around that one trait/job ability. I wouldn't ever expect to see something of that nature, but it'd be pretty cool.

Doubt it'd need something so complicated as that. Hasso didn't introduce any new damage formulae, it just gave a STR bonus and some haste. If a comparable bonus were given to one-handers, who had an empty offhand, it'd probably be something similar. Like a haste to match the delay reduction of DWIV, without the TP penalty, plus maybe some DEX or something instead of STR. Or, add some sort of defense-ignoring effect to it to overcome the disadvantage 1h weapons have on high def mobs.

[Rokku]

Doubt it'd need something so complicated as that. Hasso didn't introduce any new damage formulae, it just gave a STR bonus and some haste. If a comparable bonus were given to one-handers, who had an empty offhand, it'd probably be something similar. Like a haste to match the delay reduction of DWIV, without the TP penalty, plus maybe some DEX or something instead of STR. Or, add some sort of defense-ignoring effect to it to overcome the disadvantage 1h weapons have on high def mobs.

I'm not so sure it'd be that simple, would it? You'd still need to add something in there to account for the lower base damage of a single one handed weapon in contrast to dual wielding two similar DMG weapons for said ability to override the benefits of just subbing NIN and using two one handed weapons. The ignoring defenses idea I could see working, but I'm not so sure that it'd be an effective application of the idea to just try and mirror Hasso only with one handed weapons.

[LordTrey2]

I'm not so sure it'd be that simple, would it? You'd still need to add something in there to account for the lower base damage of a single one handed weapon in contrast to dual wielding two similar DMG weapons for said ability to override the benefits of just subbing NIN and using two one handed weapons. The ignoring defenses idea I could see working, but I'm not so sure that it'd be an effective application of the idea to just try and mirror Hasso only with one handed weapons.

I do not see why they would need to "account for the lower base damage of a single one handed weapon in contrast to dual wielding two similar DMG weapons." All DWing does is increase attack speed. Its only effect on a single damage number is the +1 hit on a WS. The base damage, wither you have 1 or 2 of the sameish dagger, doesn't change.

If a non DW ability of any type helped 1h gain the attack speed benefits of DW, then it should be competitive.

[Rokku]

I do not see why they would need to "account for the lower base damage of a single one handed weapon in contrast to dual wielding two similar DMG weapons." All DWing does is increase attack speed. Its only effect on a single damage number is the +1 hit on a WS. The base damage, wither you have 1 or 2 of the sameish dagger, doesn't change.

If a non DW ability of any type helped 1h gain the attack speed benefits of DW, then it should be competitive.

You left out a part there. If it's just matching the benefits of Dual Wielding, then why bother using it over dual wield and subbing NIN for shadows? With the exception of maybe putting it on BST or WAR, I can't see a lot of applications where there'd be a whole lot of advantages to an ability like that over DW.

[Priran]

because you can sub something else like WAR

[Rokku]

because you can sub something else like WAR

WAR can't sub itself, NIN already subs WAR, BLU wouldn't sub WAR, so that leaves THF and BST as the only ones that would make any use of such an ability. So how is this supposed to be useful if all it does is mirror DW again?

[Priran]

This discussion started with the suggestion that THF get native dual wield, why do I need to explain that I'm talking about THF/WAR?

[LordTrey2]

This ability has to be given to some job. So if it is not nin, and is a 1h dd, that only leaves thf, blu, maybe war, mnk?, dnc, bst, big stretch brd, cor, and rdm.

Maybe it would be offset with a def ability as well. Its not like this theoretical JA exists for everyone to have magically, it has to come from somewhere which should already have other benefits.

[Rokku]

This discussion started with the suggestion that THF get native dual wield, why do I need to explain that I'm talking about THF/WAR?

That it did, but I don't see anywhere where Khamsin's idea nor in any of the following discussion that it was in regards to any job in particular getting a two handed grip JA or JT. THF/WAR would be the best application of a 2h grip ability, and probably a better option than trying to give them enough DW traits to keep up with /NIN.

[Khamsin]

That it did, but I don't see anywhere where Khamsin's idea nor in any of the following discussion that it was in regards to any job in particular getting a two handed grip JA or JT. THF/WAR would be the best application of a 2h grip ability, and probably a better option than trying to give them enough DW traits to keep up with /NIN.

Come to think of it, it probably would make the most sense on THF, to allow a single-wielding THF to match the rate of attack of a dual wielder (minus the TP penalty, and maybe a DEX bonus or something) as a sort of one-handed Hasso. However, if this is the case, it wouldn't really be "two handed grip" anymore because a two handed grip on a dagger is retarded. And that particular trait in FFV made the attack stronger, not faster, and was intended more for 1h swords and the like.

Still, might not be a bad thing for THF to get. However, I'm wondering whether a "one handed hasso" or a "dagger ignores defense" ability would be more useful. On the one hand, you get to match DW attack speed, but on the other, instead of doing single digit damage on high def mobs while the 2handers are still getting decent numbers, you are still putting out some decent numbers yourself. If they were two mutually exclusive stances, then the "ignores defense" one could be a two handed grip, even on a dagger, if you imagine holding one with both hands and stabbing down into something forcefully. Won't be as fast, but it'll certainly penetrate its defenses.

In essence, Hasso was invented to allow 2handers to compete with dual wielders. This would basically allow 1h single wielders to do the same thing.

[Rokku]

Still, might not be a bad thing for THF to get. However, I'm wondering whether a "one handed hasso" or a "dagger ignores defense" ability would be more useful. On the one hand, you get to match DW attack speed, but on the other, instead of doing single digit damage on high def mobs while the 2handers are still getting decent numbers, you are still putting out some decent numbers yourself. If they were two mutually exclusive stances, then the "ignores defense" one could be a two handed grip, even on a dagger, if you imagine holding one with both hands and stabbing down into something forcefully. Won't be as fast, but it'll certainly penetrate it's defenses.

In essence, Hasso was invented to allow 2handers to compete with dual wielders. This would basically allow 1h single wielders to do the same thing.

See, this I like the sound of. Call it Penetrate or something, give it a delay reduction, ignores defense with a single dagger, sub WAR and viola.

Edit: On that note, why not go ahead and make it a slight AGI bonus instead of DEX to better mesh with TA and Assassin?

[Seanr]

Come to think of it, it probably would make the most sense on THF, to allow a single-wielding THF to match the rate of attack of a dual wielder (minus the TP penalty, and maybe a DEX bonus or something) as a sort of one-handed Hasso. However, if this is the case, it wouldn't really be "two handed grip" anymore because a two handed grip on a dagger is retarded. And that particular trait in FFV made the attack stronger, not faster, and was intended more for 1h swords and the like.

Still, might not be a bad thing for THF to get. However, I'm wondering whether a "one handed hasso" or a "dagger ignores defense" ability would be more useful. On the one hand, you get to match DW attack speed, but on the other, instead of doing single digit damage on high def mobs while the 2handers are still getting decent numbers, you are still putting out some decent numbers yourself. If they were two mutually exclusive stances, then the "ignores defense" one could be a two handed grip, even on a dagger, if you imagine holding one with both hands and stabbing down into something forcefully. Won't be as fast, but it'll certainly penetrate its defenses.

In essence, Hasso was invented to allow 2handers to compete with dual wielders. This would basically allow 1h single wielders to do the same thing.

you want thf to naturally attack and give the mob damn near as much tp as a KC? what happens when they try to dual wield?

[Byrthnoth]

I see four problems with Thief that need to change:
1) Their accuracy and attack are terrible :: -Level A+ Dagger please!
2) They lack Subtle Blow :: -Change the TP bonus monsters get when we hit them to scale with base delay. Giving them an extra 20% is fine, giving them a static 3 is stupid.
3) Their unstacked WSs aren't so hot and SA/TA timers aren't going to decrease with level cap increase, while THF TP gain will increase further with Dual Wield 3. :: -Give them a WS like Atonement that they can use outside of SA/TA, or give them a new SA/TA-like ability. Make it based on STR (they'd crap themselves) or CHR (they'd cry a river and I could go canoeing).
4) Their DoT is still crappy compared to MNK and NIN. (Blau/SK give a DoT of 16, while Monk's DoT is around 22) :: -Increase Weapon Damage further.

Basically, I don't think eliminating the Ninja subjob so that Thief can sub Warrior is really the answer, and I don't think it'd make them a good DD even if they could sub both jobs at once right now. SE's damage system is poorly designed to the point where damage negation spells/JAs are the only way for DDs to tank, so any "solution" you propose that involves abandoning one or the other is not viable.

[noodles355]

Tbh I'd just like to see native Subtle Blow for thief more than some gimpy DW1/2 trait.

[seiji]

3) Their unstacked WSs aren't so hot and SA/TA timers aren't going to decrease with level cap increase, while THF TP gain will increase further with Dual Wield 3. :: -Give them a WS like Atonement that they can use outside of SA/TA, or give them a new SA/TA-like ability. Make it based on STR (they'd crap themselves) or CHR (they'd cry a river and I could go canoeing).

not for lvl 80 but lol sa/ta recast - as lvl99 merit izs possible

[Malacite]

Given that his comment was in response to my comment that was originally about SMN roll (which does /not/ suffer the level difference penalty that other rolls do) I replied assuming he was talking about the original topic: Evoker's roll. If he wasn't, then he should learn to stop dragging it off topic, and if he was, then he was, as I pointed out, horribly wrong, as you /do/ get the job bonus, and the rolls are not "cut in half".


And I shall come across people's points very harshly indeed when they accuse me of lies.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Roll

Further testing has been shown that, when buffing upwards (including while /Cor), the amount of buff received by the roll is equal to COR Level/Target level * Normal Potency. Ie: A 75/37COR will buff up to 50% Potency on itself and other 75s. A 75/25COR will buff up 33% Potency on itself and other 75s.

So yes, you dolt, Phantom Roll is cut down compared to a COR main. I learned this the hard way when trying RDM/COR in low EXP parties. Despite rolling a few lucky's and even some XI, my Hunter's Rolls weren't adding a whole hell of a lot of accuracy.

# Optimal Job bonuses still apply even if COR is the sub job. Rolls are still weakened compared to a COR main using them, however.

This is new to me however, so I'll concede that. Must have been tested recently as it was widely believed you lost the job bonuses when subbing it. COR roll is still gimp as fuck when not done by a COR main though, and I've been asked to to f'ing pay for getting into SMN burn as COR main, even though I can potentially add another 10~12k EXP if I roll high enough.

[Foldypaws]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Roll

So yes, you dolt, Phantom Roll is cut down compared to a COR main. I learned this the hard way when trying RDM/COR in low EXP parties. Despite rolling a few lucky's and even some XI, my Hunter's Rolls weren't adding a whole hell of a lot of accuracy.

That has absolutely nothing to do with being a cor main or not. That has to do with buffing above your COR level. As I said in my original post, a 37 COR and a 37 /COR buff exactly the same. Subbed or not doesn't matter, the /only/ thing that matters is level.

You might want to learn some reading comprehension. And some manners.

This is new to me however, so I'll concede that. Must have been tested recently as it was widely believed you lost the job bonuses when subbing it.

It's been this way forever. People widely believe incorrect stuff all the time. Because everyone is too lazy and ignorant to test anything for themselves. They're more interested in insulting people who have the correct answers because it's not what's "widely believed".

[Asmoranomar]

I think the issue is that some people (including myself) were not comparing a 37COR vs /37COR, but rather a 75COR vs 75ANY/37COR. When you look at it from that aspect, buffs are half potency (or at least gimped in some way).

With the way SE does some things in the game, some things get gimped when subbed (Utsu, warcry, SA, Hasso, etc), while some things don't (DS, ES, Sama/Waltz, etc). Potency on some spells are unaffected by level magic skill (Blink, dia, bio'ish, etc) while others are heavily dependent on magic skills (Songs, Cures, Nukes, etc). Then we are talking about giving buffs to other people, which seems to scale for COR, but not for BRD.

So I guess depending on HOW you look at it will result in the actual answer to the question... With that said, and reaching back to the original discussion - Is there any other rolls that, when used on people higher level than you, reduce their bonuses?

COR roll, DRK roll, RNG roll all seem like they do.

What about Healer's roll and the others? My guess if they ALL do, then perhaps Evoker's would as well, which was the original issue: Will it suck subbed or not?

Anyone a level 40 COR and want to roll a few songs for some 75's for testing?