Level 80 sub-jobs and you

[Spider-Dan]

If /NIN is not required to get nukes off, /SCH will be superior to /COR for damage.

Seems unlikely to me.

Given that Sublimation and Refresh don't stack (but Evoker's and Refresh do), unless you're leaning on Conserve MP for the win, you're talking about one half-cost spell every 2 minutes vs. Evoker's Roll, an increased potency DoT, and whatever damage you get from QD itself (Failnaught+kabura would give you a 220 damage QD, subject to whatever nerf they enact for /COR QD but before any MAB bonuses).

[Darkmagi]

dark arts is 10% cast time and mp cost reduction too.

[fantasticdan]

dark arts is 10% cast time and mp cost reduction too.

Plus 26 elemental skill, and 46 dark skill for drains/bio.

[Spider-Dan]

Point taken, but I think cost reduction should still lose to Evoker's, and QD enhancement definitely beats the extra dark skill.

[Thorny]

you're also forgetting drain/aspir to go with that dark skill, rdm doesn't get them natively and drain is really nice damage/mp

[fantasticdan]

Point taken, but I think cost reduction should still lose to Evoker's, and QD enhancement definitely beats the extra dark skill.

If evokers roll is an average of 2/tick, conserve MP + -10% cost on light/dark arts would be close, depending on how much you are casting. However you're also losing around 80 base MP to start with as /cor instead of /sch (at 75), and for convert. If you're fighting something you can aspir well as /sch, than /cor is going to fall way behind.

And how much does watershot increase poison 2 dmg/tick by? If it's just 1/tick like lightshot does on dia, than it's the same dot increase as the dark skill bonus from /sch on bio iii. I imagine the average increase in nuke/initial bio iii damage, plus the ability to drain effectively would typically outdamage quick draw. Drain also lets you get a lot more damage out of chain spell.

On top of that, you lose the 10% fast cast from arts bonuses as well as status cures going from /sch to /cor if you needed them. I can't see why I would ever want to use rdm/cor. You'd need to be in a situation where; you don't need shadows or status cures, nukes/drains are ineffective, and quick draw is effective.

[Spider-Dan]

you're also forgetting drain/aspir to go with that dark skill, rdm doesn't get them natively and drain is really nice damage/mp

Fair enough. Maybe it'll come down to QD damage.

I still maintain that for Bio/Poison kiting (i.e. true DoT kills), /COR would likely be the best option. QD damage is free (and mobile) and the per-tick improvement is substantial (for Bio, at least; I don't remember what the change to Poison is).

edit: Bio bonus is +3/tick

[ringthree]

5/5 overwhelm 4/5 blade bash 1/5 shiki IMO.

I agree with this, or even 5/5 Blade Bash. Remember Blade Bash isn't just a stun.

[Dooom]

I agree with this, or even 5/5 Blade Bash. Remember Blade Bash isn't just a stun.

As much as I love Blade Bash, Shiki is also pretty useful, and I certainly don't regret putting a merit into it.

[ZhiGaruda]

As much as I love Blade Bash, Shiki is also pretty useful, and I certainly don't regret putting a merit into it.

I agree. Most people hate that I have a merit in Shiki. I've always said, if you are in a situation where you need Blade Bash the second the timer is up again with 5/5 merits, obviously your group is in dire need of a dedicated stunner.

[Fottiti]

Fair enough. Maybe it'll come down to QD damage.

I still maintain that for Bio/Poison kiting (i.e. true DoT kills), /COR would likely be the best option. QD damage is free (and mobile) and the per-tick improvement is substantial (for Bio, at least; I don't remember what the change to Poison is).

edit: Bio bonus is +3/tick

Which "true DoT kills" are there. Of all the solos I can think of, none of them can't be speed up greatly by nuking, which is often only effective to do as /nin.

I'm not saying these solos don't exist, just that I can't think of any. Also the obvious thing to point out about the entire arguement is why bother at all until we know how/if QD will be penalised in any way when /cor.

[Malacite]

o.O I thought BB was garbage outside of Salvage? At least that's what I got told by everyone >_>


WTF @ the lengthy /COR discussion. Let's discuss the sexiness that will be BLM/RDM or even PLD/RDM >.>b

Though, quite frankly, I don't see a PLD/RDM using Convert except in the most ideal of situations LOL >< Could be interesting for events in June though, when a group has downtime or you have multiple tanks.

[fantasticdan]

Fair enough. Maybe it'll come down to QD damage.

I still maintain that for Bio/Poison kiting (i.e. true DoT kills), /COR would likely be the best option. QD damage is free (and mobile) and the per-tick improvement is substantial (for Bio, at least; I don't remember what the change to Poison is).

edit: Bio bonus is +3/tick

What solo fights are there that don't require shadows that you also can't nuke?

I don't see how adding 60 damage/minute to bio is relevant, since dark shot doesn't do any damage and you'd be replacing a 400dmg or whatever normal quick draw shot with it. Has anyone even tested what the poison 2 bonus is on water shot?

[Damane]

o.O I thought BB was garbage outside of Salvage? At least that's what I got told by everyone >_>


WTF @ the lengthy /COR discussion. Let's discuss the sexiness that will be BLM/RDM or even PLD/RDM >.>b

Though, quite frankly, I don't see a PLD/RDM using Convert except in the most ideal of situations LOL >< Could be interesting for events in June though, when a group has downtime or you have multiple tanks.

IF BLM/RDM has a nerfed convert, it could be pritty much ass and help BLM only a little bit...

[Byrthnoth]

That's if they nerf convert at all when subbed. The biggest problem with BLM/RDM Convert will be Curing back your HP pool without Cure 4. 3 Cure 3s and you'll be good to go with Sorc Ring latent active, but that takes time. >:/ I guess Cure 3, Regen, Cure 3 also works.

If it's un-nerffed Convert though, it's going to be 1.96 standard deviations tighter than your mom.

[Damane]

That's if they nerf convert at all when subbed. The biggest problem with BLM/RDM Convert will be Curing back your HP pool without Cure 4. 3 Cure 3s and you'll be good to go with Sorc Ring latent active, but that takes time. >:/ I guess Cure 3, Regen, Cure 3 also works.

If it's un-nerffed Convert though, it's going to be 1.96 standard deviations tighter than your mom.

If its un-nerfed it could bring BLMs back into normal PT setups, since MP wont be much of an issue then. It could even bring Manaburns up to the standart of Meleeburns in terms of exp/hour, or surpass them, since manaburns dont need much support, ecxept for refresh and ballad/evokers.

[Dooom]

o.O I thought BB was garbage outside of Salvage? At least that's what I got told by everyone >_>

Well, I'm sad to say those people are, to put it nicely, silly. A JA which not only stuns a mob but reduces their TP is quite sexy in any low-man situation - hell, stuns are handy in any situation, low-man or not - but the ability to share TP with party members is also pretty hot, even if it's only used when, say, waiting around on an NM to pop, or outside Ein, or if you're weakened and can't keep meleeing for some reason.

[Malacite]

BLM/RDM won't have access to them this update, but at 96 will gain both Haste & Cure IV alongside Refresh & Convert. That's going to be some serious power right there. Again, damn the level cap stopping at 99 instead of 100 - Oh the things we could do with Composure...

[Spagnutty]

Ok so WHM/SCH vs. WHM/RDM, at level 80/40. Let's set aside any speculation about potential new level 75+ abilities and spells. Let's also make the assumption that convert wont be gimped at all when subbed.

With sublimation + the arts + strategems from /SCH, will WHM/SCH still be more efficient than full power convert WHM/RDM?


Ok follow up question. Let's pretend in June the level cap was being raised to 82/41. Again, just taking into consideration abilities and spells that exist currently. How does 82/41 WHM/SCH stack up against a WHM/RDM with ungimp convert+refresh?

[arshesney]

Assuming you use Stratagems/Convert every time they are up and a 1000hp/1000mp set over 10 minutes:

RDM sub:

• Convert (1000 mp)
• Dispel
• Sleep
• Phalanx
• Fast Cast
• MAB

SCH sub:

• Light Arts (10% cheaper spells = 100mp)
• Penury (if you use all 10 charges on Cure V will save you about 650mp)
• 2x Sublimation cycles (500mp, more with a good hp set)
• 10x Aspir (another average 600mp, where applicable)
• Accession
• Fast Cast
• Conserve MP (10% rate, another 100mp)
• Skill boost for Dark/Enhancing/Enfeebling
• Dispel and Sleep with Addenedum: Black

SCH sub adds much more to the table than RDM, with the 82 level cap (thus opening to Refresh) I can see being a situationally useful sub.
For merits they might be on par (maybe favor /rdm under 82 cap), but for anything else I'd go /sch