Level 80 sub-jobs and you

[Thorny]

[*]Convert (1000 mp)

More like 850 after curing yourself back up.

Light Arts (10% cheaper spells = 100mp)

Only if you're spending that 1000 mp every 10 minutes and somehow instantly recovering all of it. Practically, it's always going to be significantly less.

Penury (if you use all 10 charges on Cure V will save you about 650mp)

/SCH40 gets 5 charges in 10 minutes, not 10.

[*]2x Sublimation cycles (500mp, more with a good hp set)

2 cycles = down for 1 minute, 9 minutes * 40 mp = 360 mp maximum at the cost of 360 hp. Max of 360, period.. not getting 500 and definitely not getting higher.

[*]Accession

Mutually exclusive with penury spam.

[*]Conserve MP (10% rate, another 100mp)

25% procrate, average of 4.5/16 mp saved. MP saved rounded down, realistically like 6.8% mp saved.

Terrible analysis. Both subs will be viable, with /sch favored in situations that are less mp intensive or have a second healer around.

[Xanthe]

Light Arts (10% cheaper spells = 100mp)

Only if you're spending that 1000 mp every 10 minutes and somehow instantly recovering all of it. Practically, it's always going to be significantly less.

To be fair, you can say the same thing about convert. You may not find yourself at the point you need to use it every 10 minutes.

[Thorny]

To be fair, you can say the same thing about convert. You may not find yourself at the point you need to use it every 10 minutes.

Logical error.

To be able to count the mp from light arts or conserve mp as mp you need to be able to keep spending at that rate. Obviously it's not maintainable, because if you were to spend all of your mp in 10 minutes you would have to spend at least the next 2 resting to get it back. If you want to spend all your mp and convert every 10 minutes, you can.

You need to look at your average mp spent over a time period and calculate from there how much is saved if you want to quantify light arts and conserve mp in the same base unit as convert.

[Xanthe]

Logical error.

To be able to count the mp from light arts or conserve mp as mp you need to be able to keep spending at that rate. Obviously it's not maintainable, because if you were to spend all of your mp in 10 minutes you would have to spend at least the next 2 resting to get it back. If you want to spend all your mp and convert every 10 minutes, you can.

You need to look at your average mp spent over a time period and calculate from there how much is saved if you want to quantify light arts and conserve mp in the same base unit as convert.

Yeah, I suppose the entire analysis is flawed from the beginning. It really should have taken a set number of spells over a 10 minute time frame and budget out actual mp expenditure/restoration for whm/rdm and whm/sch.

[Mercilessturtle]

If its un-nerfed it could bring BLMs back into normal PT setups, since MP wont be much of an issue then. It could even bring Manaburns up to the standart of Meleeburns in terms of exp/hour, or surpass them, since manaburns dont need much support, ecxept for refresh and ballad/evokers.

As I mentioned before (to you in fact) manaburns are already on par with tp burns for xp/hour at 75. MP was not the issue, a viable camp was. And MMM solved that issue. The hardest part of getting 30k+/hour on blm is finding 3 other blms that don't suck.

[rabidmuskrat]

Maybe this is ignorance talking from not playing BLM, but wouldn't /RDM still end up being used more than /SCH due to added survivability of blink, phalanx, and stoneskin for most situations unless /SCH offered a very significant improvement in mp efficiency over /RDM? (Which it doesn't appear to do)

[Xanthe]

Maybe this is ignorance talking from not playing BLM, but wouldn't /RDM still end up being used more than /SCH due to added survivability of blink, phalanx, and stoneskin for most situations unless /SCH offered a very significant improvement in mp efficiency over /RDM? (Which it doesn't appear to do)

WHM, which the above sub job discussion pertains to, already has Blink and Stoneskin. Phalanx wouldn't be a deal-breaker for WHM/RDM vs WHM/SCH.

[rabidmuskrat]

WHM, which the above sub job discussion pertains to, already has Blink and Stoneskin. Phalanx wouldn't be a deal-breaker for WHM/RDM vs WHM/SCH.

Crap, misread and thought I saw BLM covered in there. Probably from seeing Malacite's post. My bad.

[Radec]

As I mentioned before (to you in fact) manaburns are already on par with tp burns for xp/hour at 75. MP was not the issue, a viable camp was. And MMM solved that issue. The hardest part of getting 30k+/hour on blm is finding 3 other blms that don't suck.

Can I get a rune list for this? Seen plenty of lists for melee parties, not as much for BLM.

I'd guess
Amorphs or Elemental
M
SM
Numbers
Conditioning
Sustenance

Edit: Also, party setup, 4xBLM + 3C2 (BRD COR RDM)?

[Malacite]

Accession is a BFD for a WHM, at least in merit PT. Accession + Haste is going to save a tonne of MP in the long run as opposed to individually hasting each DD and Sublmiation hurting yourself isn't an issue at all because of stoneskin.


Both subs seem equally viable, perhaps with RDM winning out in a scenario where you need to repeatedly Cure Bomb since Penury will only cover you for 2 castings. But for now at least, I don't see /RDM overtaking the awesomeness of /SCH. Maybe when Refresh kicks in, as Refresh will trump Sublimation big time. Looking at 99;


/RDM (generally relevant stuff only)

- Convert
- Phalanx
- MAB II (might be nice for banish, lol? Or Holy?)
- Dispel (without needing Add: Black)
- Sleep (Same as above)
- Gravity
- Refresh
- Ice Spikes

vs /SCH

- Light Arts (-10% MP, Casting & Recast & increased enfeebling skill)
- Dark Arts
- Max MP Boost
- Conserve MP
- Resist Silence II
- Sublimation
- Accession/Manifestation (you never know lol, would be funny to see a WHM sleepga and have it stick)
- Drain & Aspir with B+ Skill rating
- Earth Water Wind Fire & Ice Storms (not entirely sure how this would apply to WHM but again I'm sure there's something...)
- Klimaform
- Sleep & Dispel (Add: Black)


I dunno, honestly it still looks like SCH sub will win more often than not. At 99 the skill increases from Light & Dark Arts will be pretty big I'd imagine as well.

[Lynsy]

Contrary to seemingly popular belief, Refresh is not free to cast. If you consider the 40 MP it costs to cast Refresh, it (effectively) gives 2 MP/tick. And if you're ever full, you can't "save" it. But you don't have the 30 second cool down between uses.

[Mercilessturtle]

Can I get a rune list for this? Seen plenty of lists for melee parties, not as much for BLM. Also, party setup, 4xBLM + 3C2 (BRD COR RDM)?

Same runes as a normal bird maze only swap bird for aquan, and use voucher 02 (should be using it for 75 bird mazes too though). An ideal setup is BLM/SCHx4, SCH/RDM, COR/BRD. Less ideal setups will work, but you'll take longer to finish each maze. Here's a guide on doing it that deals with handling the buggy spawns and how to deal with sea monks and such.

[Seanr]

Thanks ^

[Oulanbator]

Accession + Haste.
Accession + Regen III.
Mystic booooooooooooooooooooooon !!!

nuff said

[Yugl]

RDM/SCH: Now with more time to Death Blossom Ouryu!

[Kogenta]

Maybe was stated somewhere, but will be lvl cap raised on all areas or limited to new ares only?

6men kirin FTW

[Darkmagi]

All areas and that is already theoretically possible if you had the right people/jobs and didn't mind a slow as fuck kill. (Though this is SE and I expect them to at least limit some zones like dynamis to prevent flooding, or maybe not...)

[Eldelphia]

First thing I thought of back at the beginning of march was /RDM v /SCH for WHM but I honestly think we'll need both.

New JA/traits are going to slant this as are subjobs that other jobs end up going with. I'm just glad I'm a mage nut...

[Damane]

so the question is who will invite mages into exp pts after lvl 80 when you can have a crap load of haste and cure power with just:

DNC: merited haste samba +10 haste, + cure power
COR/WHM: haste + 2 powerfull rolls (one of them could be exp+) + sleeps with light shot
BRD/NIN: puller + 2x marches...


I dont see much place for any mage there, this trio has everything covered with lvl 80 :/

[LinktheDeme]

Was there any mention on if SCH's AOE job abilities as a support job? Sorry if it's been asked before just 12 pages of searching I don't really wanna do <,<