Level 80 sub-jobs and you

[urat]

Old math is old, I havent worked it out for the average sam, but for me, an owner of the sexy airy buckler, even at 80 /sams store tp and meditate beat /nins dual wield, and thats not including zanshin

Toss in the awesome new double attacking dagger, which gets its potency cut in half by dual wield, and /sam beats /nin by far for now. I dunno though about after 80, so was musing about the possibilities of dnc tanking at high levels again...

[Darkmagi]

You have no survivability as /sam even if it slightly increases tp gain. Fact of the matter is you will occasionally have hate or get aoed sometimes and that will ruin the benefits of the few extra TP you gain. Not to mention decreased DoT if you were DDing at all. Also unless dnc got a lot of fast recast high CE/VE dances that don't require much TP it will never be able to tank anything worth a damn.

[urat]

You have no survivability as /sam even if it slightly increases tp gain. Fact of the matter is you will occasionally have hate or get aoed sometimes and that will ruin the benefits of the few extra TP you gain. Not to mention decreased DoT if you were DDing at all. Also unless dnc got a lot of fast recast high CE/VE dances that don't require much TP it will never be able to tank anything worth a damn.

There's this thing called Fan dance.

Problem solved.

/sam increases DoT of any half assed dancer dramatically, if you're going for a DoT party style. In other words, using dancer's number one source of damage, mass skillchain spamming.

/sam allows a dancer to perform a solo skillchain every 1.5 minutes instead of every 3 minutes via a meditate/no foot rise cycle using the reverse flourish SC

As for dancer tanking, Im not even going to go into it but I know very well a dancer has pretty close to the same gear sets available to the average paladin, on top of double voke, instant healing, and a 30% damage mitigation permanently. Among other things.

[Darkmagi]

Sorry, /sam does not increase your damage over /nin on dnc. Did you seriously sugest dnc/war for tanking? wow grats on being a pld/war with less hate and taking more damage.

[urat]

Sorry, /sam does not increase your damage over /nin on dnc. Did you seriously sugest dnc/war for tanking? wow grats on being a pld/war with less hate and taking more damage.

Exactly how does dancer have less hate, and how does it take more damage? Or are you just making general statements with nothing to back it up?

[Darkmagi]

You will need to be using acc gear to gain tp thus taking more damage. DNC also has VERY limited CE gain, see Kaeko's chart. You will have abysmal accuracy in PDT gear and def food also. You rely on TP for enmity gain while a pld/war while terrible in most cases will have mp to rely on for enmity. If you somehow manage to keep hate without acc food and missing out on acc in slots you add 20% PDT you will still take more damage than a full pdt pld/war which is one of the worst possible tanking combos.

[orson]

23% haste, berserk, multihit weapon for tp gain, and fucking slug shot

with marches/haste/samba you're looking at 68% vs ~78% on good DD which is pretty significant, but the multihit gets you a higher ws frequency with similar to better ws damage

you lose out hard in DoT and wouldn't outright outparse a 2h DD, but there's no reason not to come close.. COR/WHM is the cancer killing XI

also, i dunno why it's a competition, you bring a fucking cor anyway since they have buffs

Well that's a bit different, someone was saying that a Cor was beating out the best geared DDs which isn't what you're saying. Also someone is mentioning that they're using Hunter's Roll and really a top geared 2-hander should be at 90-95% acc on most mobs even eating meat.

I don't think many NAs would argue for Cor/Whm and even the odd time where you need a couple extra cures/-na/erase probably /Dnc would be the better choice. The thing is unless the Cor has amazing gear most do not do that much damage from what I've seen. Maybe the majority I see aren't playing aggressively enough.

[Uzor]

Accession?

But that's not Shellra! Unless they give us Shell V

Besides, we're not even sure SE will be nice enough to allow us to get Accession as a SJ (although I throughly hope so).

[Thelona]

The trick that I use for making dnc tanking work is a self-cure macro. A couple of those and hate's on me pretty solid.

[Darkmagi]

Recast time and requiring tp is the limiting factor. It isn't practical at all for any serious tanking. I'm pretty certain you won't be able to easily cap enmity without being able to DD if at all.

[urat]

Spoken by someone who's never accidentally stolen hate off the paladin for the entire fight just cause he tried to heal someone.

While wearing emnitty- gear instead of +

If a dancer really wanted to go all out in tanking, the kupo and shantotto head/legs have the curing tp- and recast- augments that make it even easier.

A dancer with fan dance up already almost has as much emnitty as your average paladin, all it takes is a cerb mantle and warwolf belt and they're pretty even, maybe a bit more on the paladin which Im sure anyone with a half decent wallet can take care of. Relic hands are nice too.

[Raen Ryong]

I wasn't aware that Dancer has access to spiked hate tools such as Sentinel, the means to create large enmity via self-Cure cheats (which rely on MP - MP Refresh sources exist but not so much for TP - Meditate does not count because /sam would be dire for tanking). Also while a Dancer is using their TP on enmity, a Paladin is using their MP on enmity and their TP on damage + enmity!

I'm sure I don't need to get into a debate about how Paladin isn't even the optimal tank against most mobs in the game (yet the most commonly used). If DNC can't match up to a Paladin which is basically a (fairly efficient) compromise job on most mobs in the game, how would it fare put next to RDM etc?

[Darkmagi]

I wasn't aware that Dancer has access to spiked hate tools such as Sentinel, the means to create large enmity via self-Cure cheats (which rely on MP - MP Refresh sources exist but not so much for TP - Meditate does not count because /sam would be dire for tanking). Also while a Dancer is using their TP on enmity, a Paladin is using their MP on enmity and their TP on damage + enmity!

I'm sure I don't need to get into a debate about how Paladin isn't even the optimal tank against most mobs in the game (yet the most commonly used). If DNC can't match up to a Paladin which is basically a (fairly efficient) compromise job on most mobs in the game, how would it fare put next to RDM etc?

Basically this. DNC is not a good or practical tank in any way.

[urat]

Even if I wanted to not tank, 90% of the time in parties I end up tanking anyways.

Which pisses me off, as if I have hate that means Im getting hit with tp wing. Which means Im losing my tp when I shouldn't be.

At first I thought the samurais and rangers and corsairs and every DD I ever parted with just wasn't hitting very hard.

I have now just come to terms with the fact that if I so much as drop a half decently hitting skillchain or cure more than once per fight, my dancer will be tanking the mob for the rest of the fight no matter how many times the paladin vokes, the ninja vokes, the red mage cures, or the DDs smash.

SE should make a piece of gear, an accessory or something, that negates FDs emnitty+15 and increases its physical damage mitigation by 10%, from 30~90% to 40~100%

Tell me I can't tank all you want, I rarely have a choice in the matter >_>;

[Darkmagi]

... From what I just gathered, PLDs and NINs in merit parties. Also pulling hate on piercing weak fucking exp mobs does not equate to tanking endgame. Just shut the fuck up already. A melee whm will occasionally pull hate on colibris, so fucking what? Does not mean you are TANKING. I get sick of seeing the shit you spout in 90% of your posts.

[Hookah]

ITT tanking mobs that are alive for 30 seconds means you're a better tank then a pld.

[urat]

... From what I just gathered, PLDs and NINs in merit parties. Also pulling hate on piercing weak fucking exp mobs does not equate to tanking endgame. Just shut the fuck up already. A melee whm will occasionally pull hate on colibris, so fucking what? Does not mean you are TANKING. I get sick of seeing the shit you spout in 90% of your posts.

At what point when I was discussing the annoyance of tanking tp wing from colibris did you think I was taling about Fafnir?

No fucking duh dnc cant tank endgame, 9/10 of those moves are nonphysical and bypass our number one defense, fan dance.

Are you retarded or did you just quote me and then assume you knew what I was talking about?

I am talking about the pink birdies you stab with sharp pointy objects for merit points.

[Darkmagi]

What the fuck are you talking about with fafnir? You don't fucking tank birds dumb shit. Anything above 50 isn't tanked anymore exp wise. Why the hell were you arguing about dnc being able to tank if it wasn't to pertain endgame? ITT: DNC/WAR tanking colibris is serious business.

[urat]

What the fuck are you talking about with fafnir? You don't fucking tank birds dumb shit. Anything above 50 isn't tanked anymore exp wise. Why the hell were you arguing about dnc being able to tank if it wasn't to pertain endgame? ITT: DNC/WAR tanking colibris is serious business.

...nevermind

[Darkmagi]

As for dancer tanking, Im not even going to go into it but I know very well a dancer has pretty close to the same gear sets available to the average paladin, on top of double voke, instant healing, and a 30% damage mitigation permanently. Among other things.

This implies you were talking about DNC being able to seriously tank. Get out and stop ing.