General Election in the UK

[XanthePandy]

I'm genuinely surprised people still adore Cameron after watching him a few minutes into a debate. The guy abuses every single Gricean maxim in the book.

[Arcana]

The biggest 'other' parties are Irish/Scottish/Welsh separatists who don't want to be a part of the UK so I don't think they'd be interested in supporting any major party unless they suddenly promised to cut England off from everyone else.

It's not that the Nationalist parties don't want to be part of the UK, we have our own control over some of the issues that directly effect the people in that country, where as major issues such as defense are directly handled by westminster and not the welsh assembly or scottish government. The problem with the nationalist parties is that they are there to look out for their own country's interests and people do get caught up with the fanboyism that ties in with being proud to be scottish/welsh/irish.

[Aesctaa]

Plaid are allegedly asking for 300 million(a year?) rebate for Wales for their 3(lol) MPs to support whoever.

Scots have ruled out working with anyone.

[Draggy]

lol just found this
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...Untitled-8.jpg

[Aesctaa]

Shop with confidence.

[Nightraid]

Lol 46 votes.

To be honest though i hate how everyone blames GB for the current economic problems, then proceeds to say he shouldnt be let back in because of it. It was mostly Americas banks collasping which linked on to the rest of the world, i wouldnt necessarily say GB caused it or influenced it, though he might not have realised putting money into a floating Bank is a good idea.

[Aesctaa]

they blame him(Gordon) because he contributed to a few decades of politicians(from both sides) who moved the balance of the UK economy away from manufacturing and primary industry, towards the financial and service sectors, both of which were hit incredibly hard when the US stuff happened.

Another way of looking at it, our economy was too reliant on the banks, when they went down, our economy was hit proportionally harder than any other 'big player' country.

I think he should go, but i would like to maintain a Labour led government, I would like to see David Milliband take over personally.

[Kuya]

Ironic that the Labour party moved the English economy away from labour and more towards finance. Assuming that's true.

[Aesctaa]

Mrs. Thatcher was the worst for it, but Labour accepted that legacy with open arms when they should have been, to borrow a term, prudent about it.

[Gryffes]

Lol 46 votes.

To be honest though i hate how everyone blames GB for the current economic problems, then proceeds to say he shouldnt be let back in because of it. It was mostly Americas banks collasping which linked on to the rest of the world, i wouldnt necessarily say GB caused it or influenced it, though he might not have realised putting money into a floating Bank is a good idea.

Right so he had no responsibility despite countries with decent financial regulation avoiding it completely?

We got fucked because of a combination of issues that GB helped create.

When our economy was good and we had all that sustained growth - we were still spending more money than we had - typical of labour. Then when we hit a problem we are double fucked because we've already borrowed too much.

Let's completely ignore his funding cuts to areas that would have helped economic diversification to blunt the impact of anything, his insane idea to sell gold at the bottom of the market or the billions we spent in afghanistan/iraq that we could have otherwise have spent at home.

When someone tells you they have "beaten boom and bust" they are

1. Lying to you
2. See 1.
3. Full of Shit

[Aesctaa]

Right, and the conservatives would totally have avoided Iraq/Afghanistan, sold the gold at the right price, and were talking about regulating the banks the whole time during the 80s 90s and 2000s...

Oh no, thats right, they actually started all of this in the 80s with Mrs Thatchers deregulation of the banks, madly unfair and hugely unpopular Poll tax driving the inequality gap higher, and widespread privatization of profitable national industries, driving manufacturing output to all-time lows.

Gordon Brown hasn't handled the subsequent situation as well as with hindsight he should have, but we are in a far, far more reasonable position to deal with it now than we would have been with another 13 years of the tories.

Regardless of the Deficit, which we still have a considerable amount of maneuver on, conservative Laissez-faire attitudes in the past few years of the recession would have been total meltdown, make no mistake about it.

[Gryffes]

Right because Labour didn't privatise national industries or initiate insane PPP/PFI schemes to hide more debt off the balance sheet and/or reward their financial contributors.

[Gryffes]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ment-borrowing

[Aesctaa]

Looking at Deficit is misleading, it was pushed up by the cumulative effect of 2 wars(that both parties supported), and the stimulus package(that was broadly accepted as necessary by everyone).

Actual Debt as proportion of GDP fell until the Iraq war, while under the first few years of Blair the economy grew massively.

[Gryffes]

Looking at Deficit is misleading, it was pushed up by the cumulative effect of 2 wars(that both parties supported), and the stimulus package(that was broadly accepted as necessary by everyone).

Actual Debt as proportion of GDP fell until the Iraq war, [b]while under the first few years of Blair the economy grew massively.[b]

Right - w/ growth and an economy set up by the previous conservative government.

They don't just turn around in 12 months - you do realise ?

[Rothbardian]

Right, and the conservatives would totally have avoided Iraq/Afghanistan, sold the gold at the right price, and were talking about regulating the banks the whole time during the 80s 90s and 2000s...

Oh no, thats right, they actually started all of this in the 80s with Mrs Thatchers deregulation of the banks, madly unfair and hugely unpopular Poll tax driving the inequality gap higher, and widespread privatization of profitable national industries, driving manufacturing output to all-time lows.

Gordon Brown hasn't handled the subsequent situation as well as with hindsight he should have, but we are in a far, far more reasonable position to deal with it now than we would have been with another 13 years of the tories.

Regardless of the Deficit, which we still have a considerable amount of maneuver on, conservative Laissez-faire attitudes in the past few years of the recession would have been total meltdown, make no mistake about it.

Just to correct you.

Conservatives in Britain are anything, but Laissez-Faire. Conservatives, in Britain, like most of the world are themselves Social Democrats (Mensheviks), who are for the most part, anti-FreeMarket. Let me know when I hear conservatives in Britain, or the US arguing for Free-Banking, Hard Currency, Sound Monetary Policy, abolishing subsidy, abolishing welfarism, and, abolishing Mercantilist trade agreements.

If you want to compare and contrast, look back to Richard Cobden, Henry Bright, Herbert Spencer, and Harriet Martineau as the more pre-eminent 19th Century British Laissez-Fairests ( Some being part of the Manchester School). (If you are interested to further intellectual query)

I just hate being associated with Conservatives. I am just curious why you think Conservatives are Laissez-Faire, when you have the LPUK which clearly are (all 1,000 of their members ). Taking one look at the LPUK and the Tories clearly shows the difference between Laissez-Faire, and what the Tories espouse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPUK
http://lpuk.org/

Yeah, don't really see the Tories calling for the end to the Income Tax. Haha.

[Aesctaa]

The Conservatives hate the association as much as the Libertarians do.

Thatcher herself called it the free enterprise system, you can deduce what you like from that, and argue back and forth over its extent forever.

[Rothbardian]

The Conservatives hate the association as much as the Libertarians do.

Thatcher herself called it the free enterprise system, you can deduce what you like from that, and argue back and forth over its extent forever.

And people call the US today, Free-Market, when it runs on a Fascistic Economic System (Well, semantics wise, a bit more Corporatist, than Fascist, but nonetheless in the same purview). Doesn't mean, that just because you use rhetoric, that actual policy are espousal of the doctrine of Free-Markets.

Laissez-Faire, is, almost Market Anarchy, or in any event, closely associated (As in the very minimalist State that people like Robert Nozick, Albert Jay Nock, and Patrick Henry espoused). It is pretty much total economic voluntaryism, without any or, the most minimal involuntary, distorting factors (Taxation/Regulation for instance). For instance, one can pretty closely classify, the Presidency of Thomas Jefferson as largely Laissez-Faire, since, we had a hard commodity, end of the First Central Bank, no internal taxation (We did though, have a very small, general tariff to fund the Government), no Welfare, little to no subsidy (In fact, most US states had outlawed subsidies / internal improvements in their Constitutions by the 1850s, as did the CSA Constitution), and a very open frontier largely left alone by DC (Though not without tragic conflict with some Indian groups), hence why voluntary associations formed to fulfill what people generally associate as State-duties (Protection of Property, law, prosecution, means of settling dispute -- courts, etc.).

I liken Thatcher to Milton Friedman. Proclaiming themselves Free-Marketeers, but really, are vastly more closely linked to Keynesian and Social Democracy. While you can see from Friedman's progeny total Free-Marketeers, with Patri and David being Market Anarchists.

In any event, I too know that Conservatives don't take too kindly with us Libertarians , I just had to correct the notion that what Thatcher, and the Conservative ilk propose is Laissez-Faire.

I wonder, if you believe that what the Conservatives espouse is Laissez-Faire, then what pray-tell, is the Economic System of libertarians?

[Paladinsane]

Well personally, the idea of a hung parliment will be fine for now, it will give voters time to see what david cameron can actually do. I do think shit will hit the fan 6months down the line if he does form a coalition govt, but then we'll be able to see how cameron copes when hes in a situation like gordon brown was at the start of his premiership.

Pardon?

[Draggy]

Since its on topic.. think we all saw this one coming:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...10/8672859.stm

Gordon Brown has said he is stepping down as Labour Party leader - as his party opens formal talks with the Lib Dems about forming a government.

Mr Brown, prime minister since 2007, said he hoped a successor as Labour leader would be in place by September.

The Lib Dems have been negotiating for days with the Tories - who won the most seats and votes in the UK election.

But the Lib Dems have asked for formal talks with Labour. Mr Brown said it was in the "national interest" to respond.

Mr Brown's statement will be seen as a move to smooth the way to a deal between Labour and the Liberal Democrats to form a government.