Men: On infidelity, adultery and marriage

[zoobernut]

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason I keep making that distinction, is because there IS one? One that most people are ignorantly unaware of?

I accept the concession of defeat however.

*can't contain the RAGE!*

I never said there actually wasn't a distinction. In fact if you re-read my posts I acknowledge that distinction and state the legal benefits of legal marriage make several things easier in life, namely medical issues, health insurance, buying a house, getting loans, buying a car, taxes, having children, ect. all those things are effected by a legal marriage in a positive way making them easier to deal with. Now as you said there are other legal binding contracts that can be used for individual situations to circumvent the need for legal marriage but legal marriage is easier than those things and it is easier than having to deal with all those things on an individual basis. Couple that with all the other reasons why non-legal marriage appeals to someone and there is your basis for the existence of legal marriage.

[Absolutely Virtue]

You are a unique snowflake of a rebel who has pulled back the curtain and exposed marriage for the sham that it is. Your opinions are interesting and provocative. I look forward to receiving your newsletter every month. Your intellect is surpassed only by the massive girth of your unwed cock. Grats.

I have now spent more time arguing with you than I did completing THE ARDUOUS TASK that is submitting a form to receive a marriage license- a piece of paper in some folder somewhere in my apartment I haven't looked at since the day I received it.

I'm not even trying to convince you to get married anymore, dude. I'm going to support your unique ideas in an effort to protect some poor gal from ever being duped into marrying such a goddamn blowhard. Stay the fuck away from my mom/sister/nieces/Mithra. Jesus.

[Xajii]

You're right, we should never question tradition. Oh please forgive me.

Did you read what you quoted? I said you're entitled to your opinion, which happens to be the questioning of tradition. What I contend is that you feel "questioning tradition" extends to "defacing the value of what said tradition may mean to others". Just because you don't personally agree with abortion, gay marriage, etc. doesn't mean you have to put down others for aligning themselves with that sort of thing. In my opinion that is what makes those kinds of people douchebags, not the beliefs themselves.

[Darus Grey]

I don't disagree with your point of view, but I'd like to explore the thought process behind it a bit more, if you will. You seem to be arguing against marriage as a social construct, a legal process, a binding document recognized by governments:

A marriage license affords my wife and I certain things that we are unable to get otherwise. Chiefly amongst those is a tax break, followed up by cheaper health insurance. In addition, since I love and trust my wife, this affords me a safety net when dealing with decisions that must be made about me and my possessions in the unlikely event that I am incapacitate and unable to make rational choices. And the list goes on...

Granted, I bet that a logical way to grant me each of these measures can be found outside of a marriage license, but no other single document to my knowledge accomplishes this task for the pittance that I paid for it. And the bomb-ass party with super awesome cake and shiney presents. You can't forget that either.

There is a difference between "marriage" and "wedding", and perhaps others in this thread are not making that distinction.

There are most certainly benefits to engaging in a legally binding social contract like marriage. Darus, you do seem to ignore these points in your arguments, instead trying to line up the legal act of marrying another individual as part of some antiquated ceremony with no modern benfit.

I feel that it's just not accurate for you to do so.

I actually addressed this above, several times even.

I have no issues with the ceremony aspects, it's entirely the legal ones.


Not to you, since you're being civil, but the rest of you.

You're fucking retarded.

Anytime your argument boils down to "I don't know, I just FEEL it's a good thing"...I think you know where I'm going.

This is where I say good-day, and you get to revel in the idea that I was somehow defeated at your hands, when the reality is you're just so dense that we're at an impasse.

If anything it's a stunning example of my point that people can't seem to separate these concepts in their heads because it's been so far ingrained.

[aduidarnenye]

What I don't understand is the insistence that marriage is one thing and one thing only. It can't be anything else ever because it's just financial. History, politics, economics, and personal opinions were presented and yet dismissed because "marriage is just a financial contract". This is a very silly, ill-informed position. Rather akin to never questioning tradition because there is only way to do one thing. Ironic, eh?

I have thought of one legal reason to get married off the top of my head. If my husband were injured or hurt, I have legal power to make medical decisions for him. If we were not married, his parents would be the ones making those decisions.

Also, I married my husband because I loved him and we're absolutely perfect together, but it also helps our legal status since he's American and I'm Canadian, but I see this as a very minor reason indeed.

[Drex]

This is where I say good-day, and you get to revel in the idea that I was somehow defeated at your hands, when the reality is you're just so dense that we're at an impasse.

If anything it's a stunning example of my point that people can't seem to separate these concepts in their heads because it's been so far ingrained.

More like a stunning example of you being more rabidly obsessed with the topic at hand, and more determined to win the honored distinction of lasting longer in an internet argument

I don't consider marriage a big deal myself, but if I'm in a position where I'm already happy with a girl and she's happy with me, and our marriage would make her happier, her family happier, my family happier, her friends happier, my friends happier, etc., then I don't really see why I wouldn't do it.

Regardless of their source, societal pressures are very real. Ignoring them may make people feel rebellious, but you may very well be putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on your own (and your partners') shoulders by intentionally forgoing it. I have better shit to worry about.

I don't care much for marriage but I have better things to do than slap people in the face with my cock over the issue

edit: Also, with regards to the financial "risk" aspect - I think marriage should always be preceded by living together for an extended period of time. If you've been living with her for a couple years or something, you've already accepted the risk of her waking up one morning and walking out the door with all your shit while you're still passed out with a hangover. The idea of a 50/50 split isn't so daunting when you've already come to the grips with that possibility, imo.

[Dense]

I want to repeat this again, THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING PEOPLE FROM GETTING MARRIED WITHOUT SIGNING FOR A MARRIAGE LICENSE.

Hey there, hotshot.

My wife and I are married because my citizenship and hers are different (and different from the country in which we are currently living), and her citizenship was keeping her from being able to visit my family. This compounded by the fact that we'd like to have children and allow them to have the option of choosing their citizenship has prompted us to get married legally. My wife would have been unable to visit my parents in my home country if something should happen to me and we were never married. She was denied a visa four times while we were unmarried.

[Plow]

I actually addressed this above, several times even.

I have no issues with the ceremony aspects, it's entirely the legal ones.


Not to you, since you're being civil, but the rest of you.

You're fucking retarded.

Anytime your argument boils down to "I don't know, I just FEEL it's a good thing"...I think you know where I'm going.

This is where I say good-day, and you get to revel in the idea that I was somehow defeated at your hands, when the reality is you're just so dense that we're at an impasse.

If anything it's a stunning example of my point that people can't seem to separate these concepts in their heads because it's been so far ingrained.

Or, you could spend 5 minutes looking at websites promoting gay marriage and get shitloads of reasons why people want to be legally married.

[Darus Grey]

Hey there, hotshot.

My wife and I are married because my citizenship and hers are different (and different from the country in which we are currently living), and her citizenship was keeping her from being able to visit my family. This compounded by the fact that we'd like to have children and allow them to have the option of choosing their citizenship has prompted us to get married legally. My wife would have been unable to visit my parents in my home country if something should happen to me and we were never married. She was denied a visa four times while we were unmarried.

This is actually the only legitimate benefit that can't be duplicated, and is the only reason I myself would ever marry someone legally, the number of people this actually effects is nearly non-existent compared to the population though, not everyone marries a foreigner.

[Tekoa]

@Darus: Will affordable health insurance count as a good reason to become LEGALLY married?

Where I work health insurance can be extended to a legally married spouse, not a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner. Granted this isn't entirely applicable to MY reasons for wanting to get legally married, but does it count as a legitimate reason to you?

I'm trying to play ball here rather than just rage-bash you. People have different opinions and yours doesn't have any affect on the fact that I'm going to be getting legally married next year to the girl of my dreams. Again, just trying to play nicely ^_^.

[Darus Grey]

@Darus: Will affordable health insurance count as a good reason to become LEGALLY married?

Where I work health insurance can be extended to a legally married spouse, not a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner. Granted this isn't entirely applicable to MY reasons for wanting to get legally married, but does it count as a legitimate reason to you?

I'm trying to play ball here rather than just rage-bash you. People have different opinions and yours doesn't have any affect on the fact that I'm going to be getting legally married next year to the girl of my dreams. Again, just trying to play nicely ^_^.

Depends, most health insurance companies allow you to extend benefits to a significant other, I'd inquire about it if were actually an issue, a small employer might switch carriers over it, or they simply didn't know themselves. Corporations don't like to discriminate against the gayz and want their money as much as anyone else's.

At what point are we just "reaching" for reasons though?

[Denchi]

You've gotten plenty, you're just being stubborn.

[Darus Grey]

You've gotten plenty, you're just being stubborn.

I can count, I count 1.

[Tekoa]

I'd say I'm probably reaching for a reason at this point. Just trying to see what, if any, reason for legal marriage is valid to you. Although one was made, I can see that your opinion on the topic isn't changing so it's all good. No more reaching unless something pops into mind.

[Darus Grey]

I'd say I'm probably reaching for a reason at this point. Just trying to see what, if any, reason for legal marriage is valid to you. Although one was made, I can see that your opinion on the topic isn't changing so it's all good. No more reaching unless something pops into mind.

Without tooting my own horn I fully admit as a male rights activist this is a targeted cause for me(marriage, on average, is detrimental to men and beneficial to women).

But in all honesty I'd rather not play "whack-a-mole", there's over 1000 status changes in a marriage...we could spend all day going...

Them:"If I get injured I want them to be able to make choices for me"
Me: Power of Attorney...read about it. Unlike a marriage you can also limit it to only certain rights/situations.

Them: "Share health insurance!"
Me: "Reality is, many providers allow you to specify a significant other"

Them: "Automatic joint custody!"
Me: "You can assign joint custody with a custody agreement..."


etc x1000+

There really is no benefit that can't be duplicated or made redundant except the citizenship one, which I freely admit is a legitimate reason to seek it.

The problem as I said is that you have to take all the bad clauses with the good.
In a two-income family does your spouse really deserve 10-30% of what you've made because you happen to be more successful and you split?

In one-income families alimony applies.

Things like power of attorney can be huge negatives...there's plenty of people, significant others included in my life that I would not trust with my credit card, it doesn't mean I don't love them, but in a marriage, in many states, your SO can rack up any amount of debt they want and you're responsible for 50% it in the event of a split.

etc, another long list.

Most marriages fail, even accounting for their decrease, not accepting the possibility is foolish, we're talking about a coin-flip here. However everyone thinks they're the "exception" and that it can't go wrong.

Being informed and prepared is never a negative, despite what many here think. The bad clauses vastly out-weigh all the "one in a million" type scenarios.

[archibaldcrane]

I can count, I count 1.

Citizenship, taxes, and health benefits are all situationally important benefits of legal marriage.

How is that not 3?

Most of your arguments are "you can spend money on lawyers to draw up the same benefits otherwise" - and again, you're missing the spend money part as a negative.

[Darus Grey]

Citizenship, taxes, and health benefits are all situationally important benefits of legal marriage.

How is that not 3?

Because my entire point is that the other two(and the rest) can be duplicated or made redundant through other means, which means citizenship is the only one(and even then, not really, it just makes the process automatic and fast, but not impossible otherwise).

Also, last I checked, you didn't need a lawyer to write up a contract. Then again the money spent on printer ink is a huge negative, got me there.

[archibaldcrane]

Because my entire point is that the other two(and the rest) can be duplicated or made redundant through other means, which means citizenship is the only one(and even then, not really, it just makes the process automatic and fast, but not impossible otherwise).

You realize all divorces aren't nearly as hostile and acrimonious as your parents was, right? Admit there are real legal benefits to marriage - or don't, and continue to look like a retard.

[archibaldcrane]

Also, last I checked, you didn't need a lawyer to write up a contract. Then again the money spent on printer ink is a huge negative, got me there.

This, coming from a guy who says that you can't make ironclad prenups, is fucking rich.

[Darus Grey]

You realize all divorces aren't nearly as hostile and acrimonious as your parents was, right? Admit there are real legal benefits to marriage - or don't, and continue to look like a retard.

It's impossible for me to think this way unless my parents divorced.

Nice try, far from the money though.

If you want to play in the pro leagues archi you're going to have to do better, this isn't the first time I've had to inform you about how weak and obvious your attacks are.

This, coming from a guy who says that you can't make ironclad prenups, is fucking rich.

I imagine a lot of shit is funny when you're a moron, you're trying to point out a disconnect where this is none, you try to do this a lot, and it often blows up in your face.

Seriously, get this mickey mouse league shit out of here.