American Identity

[archibaldcrane]

You should stop being so Mexican all the time.

[Rhinox]

You should stop being so Mexican all the time.

You're so cool. Its like you try to be witty only you're not.

How do you pull that off bro?

[BerenTebogo]

ITT: People don't realize that describing themselves based on a genetic and geographical accident is pretty fucking stupid.

Though, for purposes of scholarships and federal grant money you can bet your ass I'm Portuguese.

I love hypocrisy :D

[archibaldcrane]

You're so cool.

Thanks. Mad is a good look on you.

[Maguspk]

There are definite cultural boundary markers even among different ethnic groups in America so I think it's perfectly valid to include your ethnic identity in a self description. Mexican-Americans and Chinese-Americans, for example, have very distinct and different cultures and to say they are both 'American' is a gross oversimplification.

To say it's stupid or simply a result of needing to 'belong to a group', just shows a supreme level of ignorance. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd guess the people who carry this mindset on ethnic identity are also those who either lack it or fit the bill in America for typical white male or female. It's very easy to ignore the vast differences in culture around you when you already meld into the most privileged identity our society has to offer (white male and females).


I fill in the 'Multiracial' bubble on census and other related forms. However, I grew up in an African-American household and that is half of my multiracial identity. Since the other half is European/Caucasian-American I largely ignore it because it lacks any real defining cultural characteristics, although I'm sure it is the first group I am categorized as when meeting a new person.

[Rhinox]

Thanks. Mad is a good look on you.

lol

Trying waaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard there archi

[fantasticdan]

ITT: People don't realize that describing themselves based on a genetic and geographical accident is pretty fucking stupid.

Though, for purposes of scholarships and federal grant money you can bet your ass I'm native american.

I love hypocrisy :D

^

[BerenTebogo]

There are definite cultural boundary markers even among different ethnic groups in America so I think it's perfectly valid to include your ethnic identity in a self description. Mexican-Americans and Chinese-Americans, for example, have very distinct and different cultures and to say they are both 'American' is a gross oversimplification.

To say it's stupid or simply a result of needing to 'belong to a group', just shows a supreme level of ignorance. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd guess the people who carry this mindset on ethnic identity are also those who either lack it or fit the bill in America for typical white male or female. It's very easy to ignore the vast differences in culture around you when you already meld into the most privileged identity our society has to offer (white male and females).


I fill in the 'Multiracial' bubble on census and other related forms. However, I grew up in an African-American household and that is half of my multiracial identity. Since the other half is European/Caucasian-American I largely ignore it because it lacks any real defining cultural characteristics, although I'm sure it is the first group I am categorized as when meeting a new person.

I could easily write a well-formulated 10 page or longer essay, complete with ample sources, about how clinging to cultural and religious heritage is one of the last great speedbumps on the road of societal and moral progress, but I won't. Instead, I'll sum it up with one ideal that I hold in very high regard that you will never, ever shake from my mind without mountains of experimental evidence verified by experts on the social nature of mammals:

The recognition and celebration of our cultural differences as people, as opposed to the celebration of our commonality, is the most basic breeding ground for all hatred and violence in this world. As long as we, as a species, continue to refuse to recognize that the geographic location of our birth, as well as the migratory patterns of our ancestors, are nothing more than evolutionary imperatives -- and instead use these inherently arbitrary points of reference as the basis of pride and the foundation of the "self" then we are doomed to a literal and figurative never-ending battle against discrimination.

Truly, it is only with this realization that we can move beyond an unfathomably large amount of apologetic discrimination and racial, ethnic, and gender-based turmoil. Wars have been waged since the beginning of time as a means for one culture to spread their dominion, their genetic traits, their legacy, across the known world. As society evolved past the point of the industrial revolution it was well established that no amount of global dominion would ever account for near infinite variations in humanity on a global scale (notwithstanding some decent attempts by the obvious culprits) so the goal of dominion by assimilation merely blended into a goal of dominion by imperialism.

If we, as a species, are all inherently equal and all share the same common ancestry then why not celebrate that? What about the past 150 years so determines the origins of who you are and the origins of how you view yourself? What about 200 years ago? Or 300? Or 500? How about 10,000? Arbitrary guidelines serving only as fuel for a fire that has burned all too long serve no purpose to a global society as advanced as we'd like to think we are. In the end, it is our differences that make us weak, not strong. It is our common heritage, our unity, that pushes us forward into the future.

(Do not argue that if not for racial inequality there would be no need for a military industrial complex that has aided the furtherance of technology and society as we know it. I know, I know.)

[Rhinox]

I could easily write a well-formulated 10 page or longer essay, complete with ample sources, about how clinging to cultural and religious heritage is one of the last great speedbumps on the road of societal and moral progress, but I won't. Instead, I'll sum it up with one ideal that I hold in very high regard that you will never, ever shake from my mind without mountains of experimental evidence verified by experts on the social nature of mammals:

The recognition and celebration of our cultural differences as people, as opposed to the celebration of our commonality, is the most basic breeding ground for all hatred and violence in this world. As long as we, as a species, continue to refuse to recognize that the geographic location of our birth, as well as the migratory patterns of our ancestors, are nothing more than evolutionary imperatives -- and instead use these inherently arbitrary points of reference as the basis of pride and the foundation of the "self" then we are doomed to a literal and figurative never-ending battle against discrimination.

Truly, it is only with this realization that we can move beyond an unfathomably large amount of apologetic discrimination and racial, ethnic, and gender-based turmoil. Wars have been waged since the beginning of time as a means for one culture to spread their dominion, their genetic traits, their legacy, across the known world. As society evolved past the point of the industrial revolution it was well established that no amount of global dominion would ever account for near infinite variations in humanity on a global scale (notwithstanding some decent attempts by the obvious culprits) so the goal of dominion by assimilation merely blended into a goal of dominion by imperialism.

If we, as a species, are all inherently equal and all share the same common ancestry then why not celebrate that? What about the past 150 years so determines the origins of who you are and the origins of how you view yourself? What about 200 years ago? Or 300? Or 500? How about 10,000? Arbitrary guidelines serving only as fuel for a fire that has burned all too long serve no purpose to a global society as advanced as we'd like to think we are. In the end, it is our differences that make us weak, not strong. It is our common heritage, our unity, that pushes us forward into the future.

(Do not argue that if not for racial inequality there would be no need for a military industrial complex that has aided the furtherance of technology and society as we know it. I know, I know.)

Would be nice but will never happen. I mean ever

[Demosthenes11]

I had someone try and convince me one time that I should tell people I'm german and not american because america made me (my ancestors) change their traditions and culture when they moved here 100 years ago.

I laughed hard.
I'm Hella american

[BerenTebogo]

Would be nice but will never happen. I mean ever

I agree.

Willfully perpetuating the offending mindset in the name of cynicism, however, is not contributing to any effort, small or large, towards dragging humanity kicking and screaming out of the cultural dark ages.

Just because Utopian ideals utterly fail in the face of free will doesn't mean that progress, whether globally or locally, should be dismissed as unreachable. Any effort put forth is an effort truly deserving of pride. Much unlike many of the other sources from which we derive such emotions.

[Maguspk]

I could easily write a well-formulated 10 page or longer essay, complete with ample sources, about how clinging to cultural and religious heritage is one of the last great speedbumps on the road of societal and moral progress, but I won't. Instead, I'll sum it up with one ideal that I hold in very high regard that you will never, ever shake from my mind without mountains of experimental evidence verified by experts on the social nature of mammals:

The recognition and celebration of our cultural differences as people, as opposed to the celebration of our commonality, is the most basic breeding ground for all hatred and violence in this world. As long as we, as a species, continue to refuse to recognize that the geographic location of our birth, as well as the migratory patterns of our ancestors, are nothing more than evolutionary imperatives -- and instead use these inherently arbitrary points of reference as the basis of pride and the foundation of the "self" then we are doomed to a literal and figurative never-ending battle against discrimination.

Truly, it is only with this realization that we can move beyond an unfathomably large amount of apologetic discrimination and racial, ethnic, and gender-based turmoil. Wars have been waged since the beginning of time as a means for one culture to spread their dominion, their genetic traits, their legacy, across the known world. As society evolved past the point of the industrial revolution it was well established that no amount of global dominion would ever account for near infinite variations in humanity on a global scale (notwithstanding some decent attempts by the obvious culprits) so the goal of dominion by assimilation merely blended into a goal of dominion by imperialism.

If we, as a species, are all inherently equal and all share the same common ancestry then why not celebrate that? What about the past 150 years so determines the origins of who you are and the origins of how you view yourself? What about 200 years ago? Or 300? Or 500? How about 10,000? Arbitrary guidelines serving only as fuel for a fire that has burned all too long serve no purpose to a global society as advanced as we'd like to think we are. In the end, it is our differences that make us weak, not strong. It is our common heritage, our unity, that pushes us forward into the future.

(Do not argue that if not for racial inequality there would be no need for a military industrial complex that has aided the furtherance of technology and society as we know it. I know, I know.)

I can see where you are going with that thought but culture and race are not synonymous. Even without recognition of race there are still different cultures even with globalization removing a lot of it. Sure, maybe in a few hundred years there might be less overall cultures. Culture isn't something you just 'get rid of', it's a product of the way we live our lives, to suggest we simply abandon it altogether would require a great deal of coordination among the entirety of the human species. It's fine the way it is, if some people use it for the basis of their hate that's their choice, but we shouldn't get rid of it simply on that notion alone.

[BerenTebogo]

I can see where you are going with that thought but culture and race are not synonymous. Even without recognition of race there are still different cultures even with globalization removing a lot of it. Sure, maybe in a few hundred years there might be less overall cultures. Culture isn't something you just 'get rid of', it's a product of the way we live our lives, to suggest we simply abandon it altogether would require a great deal of coordination among the entirety of the human species. It's fine the way it is, if some people use it for the basis of their hate that's their choice, but we shouldn't get rid of it simply on that notion alone.

So, in the history of the world that you were taught, all cultural, scientific, ethical, moral, philosophical, societal, technological, and so forth, advances were the result of a coordinated and collective effort that arose either spontaneously or simmered in the background until the number of supporters reached some minimum threshold?

Cultures, ethnicities, movements, governments, and any variations thereof, all love to think that the progression of the world has been as a result of some radical innovation or ideal that can only be attributed to the splendor and majesty of the majority. The fact is, and history shows us this time and time and time again, that it is upon the backs of the few that progress is born. It is through the blood and sweat of the brave who choose to stand up as inspirational beacons that others may follow through the darkness of our world that we are able to move forward with our heads held high. While the possibility does exist in some instances that, without the growing support of the many, the few would have surely failed -- it is only because of the willingness of the few to stand up in the face of such great adversity that the many had such an opportunity.

Avoiding a hard truth because you feel that others may not respect your morality or ethics and continue to commit terrible crimes against wonderful people is not bravery, nor is it deserving of any pride whatsoever, it is cowardice. It is easy to wait for someone else to stand up against seemingly impossible odds and to follow in quiet support. It is difficult to know that you may never, ever, ever make a difference in your entire life in any aspect of the human experience and still try. It is through the difficult choices that you will earn the respect of history; if not in name then in spirit.

[BerenTebogo]

Also, done pontificating on this topic. Burn all fatties, etc.

[Cadsuane]

Wait a sec.

The recognition and celebration of our cultural differences as people, as opposed to the celebration of our commonality, is the most basic breeding ground for all hatred and violence in this world. As long as we, as a species, continue to refuse to recognize that the geographic location of our birth, as well as the migratory patterns of our ancestors, are nothing more than evolutionary imperatives -- and instead use these inherently arbitrary points of reference as the basis of pride and the foundation of the "self" then we are doomed to a literal and figurative never-ending battle against discrimination.

Isn't that exactly what people do in ethnically/culturally homogenous states, and isn't that why they're free (at least domestically) of a certain subset of social problems? You could argue in that case, that the celebration of racial and cultural identities is exactly the celebration of commonalities that you're speaking of, that leads to social cohesion. Since there are commonalities from the most crass (physical appearance/traits) to the most profound (independently reasoning, moral beings), with "culture" somewhere on that spectrum, it seems arbitrary to pick a point along that line and consider it universal enough to humanity to be worth preserving and emphasizing.

[BerenTebogo]

Wait a sec.



Isn't that exactly what people do in ethnically/culturally homogenous states, and isn't that why they're free (at least domestically) of a certain subset of social problems? You could argue in that case, that the celebration of racial and cultural identities is exactly the celebration of commonalities that you're speaking of, that leads to social cohesion. Since there are commonalities from the most crass (physical appearance, traits) to the most profound (independently reasoning, moral beings), with "culture" somewhere on that spectrum, it seems arbitrary to pick a point along that line and consider it universal enough to humanity to be worth preserving.

If I wasn't busy lighting fat bitches on fire and plotting the bombing of the headquarters for that fat chick version of Hot Topic I'd happily tell you that sub-sectioned social cohesion unravels when it interacts with any other form of social cohesion differing from the accepted norm from either perspective and it is within only a narrow spectrum of human nature that such homogenous social structures enjoy a reprieve from the problems that arise from cultural inequality.

I would go on to say that at a micro-level examination of culture your assertions would indeed be verified, but at a macro (either from global - as humanity or from anthropological - as defining the most prominent point of commonality as the introduction of the "homo sapien") level examination your assertions hold very little weight for many reasons, not least of which being that ethnocentrism has blurred culture lines to the point of being virtually unrecognizable from even a century ago. Meaning even our claims of recent commonality based of ethnicity, race, or culture is arbitrary beyond any possible definable point - thus negating any possibility of a verifiable homogeneity.

That's what I would say anyways, if I wasn't busy hating gays.

[Takedown3]

you're all a bunch of fuckin mutts

[brisk]

This thread reminded me how stupid people can be. I remember walking into the house with shoes a couple weeks ago and my mom went batshit insane (lolAsian parents), telling me we are not American people. I replied "What the fuck are we, illegal immigrants?" But yea, its really hard to call myself Cambodian when I don't act....Cambodian or slant.

[pahnphoenix]

One thing I have noticed among some of my American friends is that a lot of them don't consider themselves merely American. Not all, but some of them when asked where they are from, will say they are from America but then quickly follow up that they are 'Irish-American', 'Polish-American, 'Italian-American' etc.

With some, it doesn't end there though. They will go into immediate detail of their family history of how their grand-parents, great-grand-parents etc, moved to America from wherever. It's as if they fear or resent being considered just an 'American'. (Maybe it's just me but I've noticed many Americans seem to have the perception that it's cool to have Irish or Italian blood in their genes) I have noticed this often in various American TV shows/movies also.

In the early 1900's immigrants were expected to immerse and assimilate into American society and embrace becoming an American. The following quote is from an American play called 'The Melting Pot' back in 1908;



It seems to me that the reverse of what was happening in the 1900's is occuring now throughout the country.

I have discussed this with some friends from different countries at school here (French, German, Japanese) and they've noticed this too. I am from the UK, was born there and despite not really feeling much attachment for it, (Or any other country, but that's a different matter) I still consider myself British. My grandparents on my Mum's side of the family moved to the UK from Ireland when they were children, but I wouldn't really consider myself 'Irish' in any way and the fact very rarely comes up in conversation unless people ask specifically.

It does seem people will go to amazing lengths to embrace that they are 'individual' or 'unique' these days, and I guess this is just a small part of establishing your overall identity.

So I guess my questions to BG are; What do you identify yourself as? Are Americans today just proud of their family history and want to embrace where they came from? Are people just being overly pretentious because having Irish, Italian, Norweigian blood etc, is considered 'cool'? <___> Or are people just trying to distinguish themselves from the 'America, FUCK YEAH!' stereotypes that have a bad rep in many foreign countries?

(For the record, I'm not hating on Americans or anything. This is just something I have noticed for a long time now and never really discussed it) ^-^v

america is a nation of relative immigrants, with a history of extreme racism plus the necessity to band together in order to overcome economic inequality and oppression. given the often racialized/ethnic-oriented discrimination that occurs, it's natural for groups to identify with these categories and form coalitions to overcome both the overt discrimination ("don't like italians huh? how do you like THIS italian!?" etc) and other general adversity (e.g. it's tough for everyone to get a job, but hey, that guy in a high position is irish, hey, i'm irish, you knew my father didn't you, oh word? well hope to hear back from you guys).

there's more to it of course, but that's the general reason. i'd say that capitalism robs america of much of its potential culture, but then i'd realize that the word 'culture' is barely definable, and not say it.

p.s. i can't resist... a mild note on capitalism and american individualism, it is *absolutely necessary* to organize and form coalitions to attain any degree of power in the united states. it seems to some people that working hard and having ingenuity (or money) are what yields power, but, in fact, the main virtue of money is the powerful coalition of elites (at various levels) to which it provides you access. you see examples in our history of poor people banding together by ethnicity to help themselves up. it's crucially important to understand that they're being kept down in the first place by rich people who have banded together, tacitly or otherwise.

[Amastacia]

Concur with Sath, not reinventing wheel.

Plus, I have red hair and I like Guinness. I don't have to make any mention of ancestry for people to make an assumption on the matter.

Actually, now that I think about it, I can't even say with any certainty what my full background is, and I don't care enough to find out. That right there is probably about as Americanized as it gets, and the lack of distinct American culture/tradition/history has never really bothered me. Live in the present, plan/hope for the future. Don't repeat the mistakes of the past, but don't get bogged down by them or live your life based on them.