American Identity

[Yabby]

One thing I have noticed among some of my American friends is that a lot of them don't consider themselves merely American. Not all, but some of them when asked where they are from, will say they are from America but then quickly follow up that they are 'Irish-American', 'Polish-American, 'Italian-American' etc.

This is what i'm referring to when it is retarded to add your background. The OP did not ask where are you from, your parents, their parents, and other dead people with your bloodline. He asked where the fuck that person is from, thats it.

[Yabby]

See what I said in the post above. I was born in Texas, I never say I am from Texas because I grew up mainly in Colorado (though I also lived in Virginia and Wisconsin). Stop being so state-centric bra. If you meet other 'Americans' and they ask where you are from, while you may say 'uh America' the vast majority of my experience has been people will identify with a state or region. Because identity is nested...not an A or B answer.

Of course things get narrow downed when you are with someone in the US, but once again when asked where are you from, they are asking a location not for your background.

[Not not Mattaru]

Of course things get narrow downed when you are with someone in the US, but once again when asked where are you from, they are asking a location not for your background.

No dude, they can be asking either, depending on what information the asker is trying to garner. You can't just decide you speak for everyone who ever asked an interpretable question before.

[Yabby]

I don't get how asking where are you from can be interpreted any different than asking for where you were born/raised. If i went up to someone and asked them that and they answered, i'm Asian-Oklahoman i would slap the fuck at out them.

[Meresgi]

Of course things get narrow downed when you are with someone in the US, but once again when asked where are you from, they are asking a location not for your background.

Who is this "they"? Do you know what "they" are asking? They could walk up to you and say "Hey where are you from?" and if you answer "I'm Irish American" then yes you are an idiot, but it depends on how they phrase the question and also what is going on to bring the question about, also in the course of a conversation people tend to give information out like "Yeah I come from New York, i've got a little bit of irish and german in me, blah blah blah, where are you from?"

Those are different things. One is where you identify as coming FROM the other is what you identify as you BEING.

[Not not Mattaru]

Maybe Yabby just has Aspergers and we are all being very insensitive right now.

[Caiti]

I obviously can not insert myself into the thought process of some past event and use it to undeniably prove my point, but I can use my experience, if that works for you.

So I'll write this with the knowledge that the alternative is a world without a differing cultural identity and get to that later. I identify as American, more specifically Coloradan/West Coast-ish (mind you I was born in Texas so where I was born is not how I answer where I am from). I lived in Japan for about 4-5 months and lived with a Japanese family for 4 months. I will be going back to Japan for a job I got through a program at Princeton (no I did not go to the Ivy Leagues for school whatever it matters) for at least 1, probably 2 years on my own. I've also spent a brief amount of time with a family in Germany when I was younger. Point being I have spent at least a measurable amount of time outside of my culture inside another and they were times when I learned a lot about myself and how I deal with difference not only in culture, but in anyway that people choose to differentiate themselves. I could go into specific instances of my experiences there if you want, but I hope you can take my word for it.

Why was it valuable? Because it was different. Conflict is going to happen (unless we like...totally transcend human ego or something), the issue is how you deal with that conflict. You can see it as categorically divisive and something to defeat and squash or you can use it to overcome a problem, situation, etc. The problem is that of communication and education in this direction.

So in a world without cultural difference....you still have other forms of difference so that is problematic, and I now have one less opportunity to learn how to constructively deal with issues of identity - the one that has been most helpful to me personally.

Oh and btw, most scholarly literature on ethnic warfare etc. (mind you the debate continues, but there is debate - it is not set in stone) usually leans to the thesis that conflict is caused by material concerns and things like ethnicity are used as tools to rationalize particular behavior. So culture and ethnic identity can be used to rationalize a conflict via misinformation and propaganda first and foremost.

Firstly I'll address your last point with a specific I brought up in my last post, Africa. Now you're correct that conflict over some form of tangible good is the most common form of culture clash, no argument here, but - and maybe this is all just existentialist bullshit - the distribution of said tangible good being in conflict is due to a more specific point.

Take the nomadic tribes of Africa that have existed for thousands of years. Very, very, very cohesive small groups that very sporadically interacted with other nomadic groups (I'm generalizing here) and had a relatively pure and unique culture due to their nomadic and reclusive nature. Now when two of these nomadic tribes would encounter one-another over a sought after hunting area, or water source, or what-have-you, there was often all out warfare between the tribes to decide which group would have the right to partake of the goods. This conflict rose directly from both pursuit of tangible goods and the recognition of other peoples and cultures as different and less worthy.

It's not my most solid argument ever but we both seem to be agreeing to make vague or ambiguous, as long as factually accurate, statements for the sake of time and sanity.

Now on to the rest of your post.

Most importantly I do recognize your point of view on the topic as someone who has had a life that cannot be defined easily by region as well as being a person who has experienced much of the wonder that diversity has to offer.

That being said, you referenced that the experience in different cultures really helped to solidify your sense of identity, which I'm assuming was difficult for you early on given your propensity for migration. That being a point I can't refute, I can ask that had such inherent cultural differences not been made known to you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would you have had the same crisis? To maybe make myself clearer: if you hadn't known that culture and identity varied by region and were celebrated in their differences, but rather viewed everyone as humans whose only differences were decided by accident, would you have felt as uneasy as you did about your lack of a solid cultural foundation?

It's a question that I don't think anyone can answer objectively since we cannot go back, change the outcome, and gather data.

As someone who also was moved around a lot, although within the states, during my childhood I can emphasize somewhat. Although out of my identity crisis (maybe partially because my mother is crazy about her heritage and she looks like a fucking nut job to me? Who knows) I found a strong sense of self in only the grandest of scales.

I'm not proposing that we can eliminate all causes of human conflict. I am hypothesizing that, through cultural unification, we can eliminate a well-known cause of human conflict. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nothing will ever overcome free will. Because of this, as I've already referenced, Utopian ideals will always inevitably fail at achieving their complete intended results. Some ideals, however, that may fail at achieving total acceptance may still prove beneficial to mankind if even only partially successful.

I really do believe that there is no "nature versus nurture" psychological debate. To me, we are equally shaped by our genetics and our culture. Given that at our earliest years the culture we experience is, and always has been, about differences instead of commonalities we have never had the opportunity to truly see what this would mean for the evolution of the psychological and sociological identity of a person. Like much in the realm of theoretical sciences, maths, and even anthropology, we can only make educated guesses about the unknowns based upon the verifiable knowns. I see enough evidence to support, reasonably, my claims made in this thread. Maybe you don't, I don't know, but unfortunately I don't think we'll ever know.

And the only formal education I've had on the subject is high school level soc/psy/world history classes almost a decade ago. So parroting some ideological hippie professor or some such is out the window, sorry, lol.

[Caiti]

@Yabby

You're arbitrarily drawing defining lines in the sand. From your perspective it is "obvious" that the most well-known culture in the current era is the sole defining point for who you are. That is only an opinion though, not fact at all.

Hell, there may be some out there who are fanatical about associating themselves with the culture of "East Street-ers" and anyone who is not from East Street is not a part of their culture.

You're really highlighting one of the points I'm trying to get across by showing just how arbitrary perception is. The truth of it is just that absolutely nobody is verifiably and undeniably correct in this, not me, not matt, not you, not anyone. My association as a human rather than a collection of primarily Carbon atoms formed in the furnace of billions of stars in our universe is an arbitrary association. I could be a Carbonite (lol) or going back further to pre-stellar fusion I could be a Hydrogenite. Hell, maybe I'm just a fucking Quark.

It's all arbitrary and everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Hence why I find it all silly.

[Max™]

That last post is what my original answer was going to be, but I decided to go with the obviously intended response.

"Where are you from?"
'Well, about 13.7 billion years ago the Universe began unfurling rapidly from an extremely symmetrical state. After an extremely brief period of time, that symmetry began to cleave in a particular manner which allowed the pre-existing superforce to split gravity off from itself, fueling a dramatic burst of inflation...'

A few hours later I get to:

'...then that star reached a point where it could no longer sustain the weight of its outer layers against gravity, due to the cessation of fusion processes at it's core (fucking iron), and it blew up. After a while the debris of that explosion began to collapse around irregularities in its distribution, forming protostars, of which one became known as Sol by silly little creatures that assembled themselves on one of the little rocks orbiting it.

I am one of those silly little self-assembling creatures.'

[Yabby]

@Yabby

You're arbitrarily drawing defining lines in the sand. From your perspective it is "obvious" that the most well-known culture in the current era is the sole defining point for who you are. That is only an opinion though, not fact at all.

Hell, there may be some out there who are fanatical about associating themselves with the culture of "East Street-ers" and anyone who is not from East Street is not a part of their culture.

You're really highlighting one of the points I'm trying to get across by showing just how arbitrary perception is. The truth of it is just that absolutely nobody is verifiably and undeniably correct in this, not me, not matt, not you, not anyone. My association as a human rather than a collection of primarily Carbon atoms formed in the furnace of billions of stars in our universe is an arbitrary association. I could be a Carbonite (lol) or going back further to pre-stellar fusion I could be a Hydrogenite. Hell, maybe I'm just a fucking Quark.

It's all arbitrary and everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Hence why I find it all silly.

Correct, But i felt the need to argue back a my thought on the point i made a while back that someone felt was just totally wrong. Mainly the person above talking about context is the correct answer lol.

That last post is what my original answer was going to be, but I decided to go with the obviously intended response.

"Where are you from?"
'Well, about 13.7 billion years ago the Universe began unfurling rapidly from an extremely symmetrical state. After an extremely brief period of time, that symmetry began to cleave in a particular manner which allowed the pre-existing superforce to split gravity off from itself, fueling a dramatic burst of inflation...'

A few hours later I get to:

'...then that star reached a point where it could no longer sustain the weight of its outer layers against gravity, due to the cessation of fusion processes at it's core (fucking iron), and it blew up. After a while the debris of that explosion began to collapse around irregularities in its distribution, forming protostars, of which one became known as Sol by silly little creatures that assembled themselves on one of the little rocks orbiting it.

I am one of those silly little self-assembling creatures.'

I used to live in Oklahoma, and being one of the only non-religious people in my school before i moved to Michigan i loved doing shit like this to piss them off.

[Not not Mattaru]

That being said, you referenced that the experience in different cultures really helped to solidify your sense of identity, which I'm assuming was difficult for you early on given your propensity for migration. That being a point I can't refute, I can ask that had such inherent cultural differences not been made known to you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would you have had the same crisis? To maybe make myself clearer: if you hadn't known that culture and identity varied by region and were celebrated in their differences, but rather viewed everyone as humans whose only differences were decided by accident, would you have felt as uneasy as you did about your lack of a solid cultural foundation?

I only quoted this because I think this is at the heart of the issue. More specifically the "if you hadn't known that culture and identity varied by region and were celebrated in their differences, but rather viewed everyone as humans whose only differences were decided by accident, would you have felt as uneasy as you did about your lack of a solid cultural foundation?" part. I think it is a false binary, in other words I think difference, culture wise, is decided by accident, but at the same time varies by region. Both can exist if you explore the issue enough. I can empathize with someone from a different culture because I recognize the accidental nature of how difference is constructed in the world we live in. I want to use the word arbitrary, but it is more or less justified depending on the time period being discussed so I'll just stay away from it. The way our culture programs us is real, but when people can see how accidental it is that we are put in that initial position it becomes a point of unity.

To answer the other part of the question. No, if cultural difference was never taught, than the issue may have never arisen, but I found great value in the fact that I had to negotiate these different cultures that I can apply to other things as well. I am also unsure if I would call myself uneasy culturally, but I would say I recognize how fluid the issue is and changes as you grow older and move around.

On Africa: I do not disagree, while I can not comment on African history/development/relations pre-Imperialism with authority. What you are saying does not conflict with a point I am making, being that culture is but one of many difference and is not categorically good or bad, rather it depends on how people are educated/informed etc.

[Caiti]

I only quoted this because I think this is at the heart of the issue. More specifically the "if you hadn't known that culture and identity varied by region and were celebrated in their differences, but rather viewed everyone as humans whose only differences were decided by accident, would you have felt as uneasy as you did about your lack of a solid cultural foundation?" part. I think it is a false binary, in other words I think difference, culture wise, is decided by accident, but at the same time varies by region. Both can exist if you explore the issue enough. I can empathize with someone from a different culture because I recognize the accidental nature of how difference is constructed in the world we live in. I want to use the word arbitrary, but it is more or less justified depending on the time period being discussed so I'll just stay away from it. The way our culture programs us is real, but when people can see how accidental it is that we are put in that initial position it becomes a point of unity.

To answer the other part of the question. No, if cultural difference was never taught, than the issue may have never arisen, but I found great value in the fact that I had to negotiate these different cultures that I can apply to other things as well. I am also unsure if I would call myself uneasy culturally, but I would say I recognize how fluid the issue is and changes as you grow older and move around.

On Africa: I do not disagree, while I can not comment on African history/development/relations pre-Imperialism with authority. What you are saying does not conflict with a point I am making, being that culture is but one of many difference and is not categorically good or bad, rather it depends on how people are educated/informed etc.

Don't you hate when good arguments come to a stand-still because neither side is functionally retarded?

Fuck.

If there is one thing I hate about hypothetical debate topics is that at one point both sides have to agree to disagree or agree to be fucking idiots.

Re your previous thought about unity being good while cultural diversity still being a bonus: I think that, in theory, unity through our common differences is a possible future for humanity - and a good one at that.

Do I view it as practical? Well, I think it all depends on how much faith you have in humanity. It may sound derisive or even barbaric, but I think that without being forced to accept everyone equally through either fear, punishment, or some other global force, that there will always be those whose actions condemn the many for the ideals of the few.

I know it sounds very Ayn Rand-ish, and I really don't like that, but I honestly believe that the world today thrives upon the tension and turmoil brought about by cultural inequity. I know for a fact that this principle is what keeps the America we live in today turning. This silly ultra-extreme bi-partisanship only works because even just within individual states people refuse to meet on any common ground regarding their ethical, moral, or cultural beliefs.

In the face of this -...I guess opinion would be the best word - I cannot help but feel that the our civilization cannot appropriately handle these differences and would prosper if faced with a world without them. Again, I find myself back at hypotheticals and suppositions, but I don't think that my faith in humanity will ever be as strong as yours. This would probably be where the conversation splits off into the religious influence on both culture and civilization but we have that conversation weekly here on BG, no point rehashing it.

[archibaldcrane]

Back to the Mexican vs. American thing for a bit:

Why do Americans seem to take all this pride in the countries their ancestors came from (at least sometimes), but Mexican-Americans only seem to look back to Mexico? Hispanic people are descended from European, African and Native American relatives too - why get all hardcore about being Mexican? There's an ancestry that exists before Mexico even became a country, but I've yet to meet a hispanic person who knows their roots like most white people do.

Donde Esta your Árbol genealógico, Mexico?

[Yabby]

I've yet to meet a hispanic person who knows their roots like most white people do.

Donde Esta your Árbol genealógico, Mexico?

They do know about their past, but if they live in Arizona they won't admit to shit right now i can tell you that.

[ghanima]

Back to the Mexican vs. American thing for a bit:

Why do Americans seem to take all this pride in the countries their ancestors came from (at least sometimes), but Mexican-Americans only seem to look back to Mexico? Hispanic people are descended from European, African and Native American relatives too - why get all hardcore about being Mexican? There's an ancestry that exists before Mexico even became a country, but I've yet to meet a hispanic person who knows their roots like most white people do.

Donde Esta your Árbol genealógico, Mexico?

I can't speak for the Mexicans, but my mom's family is from Panama (actually Panama by way of Columbia, with Native American thown in) and I know my roots on both sides in more than just a broad fashion. My dad's family is a crazy mix (Irish, Yugoslav, Polish, Russian) which just equates to white. A roll of the genetic dice made me pale, green eyed, and light brown hair. Ironically my sister came out looking more like my mom (darker skin, brown eyes, dark hair).

Since I just look like a white girl I'm not accepted at all by other hispanic people as being hispanic. This is no joke, I've been told any number of nasty things by other hispanic and latin american people that I tend to keep it quiet unless I'm filling out some kind of equal opportunity form. Doesn't matter that I could speak conversational Spanish with my grandmother, or that my family is getting together to make traditional foods, I'm a white girl and that's it to some people. Looking white negates anything else, so even though I can identify as hispanic I tend to think of myself as just American and ignore the inevitable disbelief and questioning that goes with trying to claim Hispanic-American.

I pretty much came to the point where I no longer cared. I was going to be disbelieved, called something nasty, or shoved into the dreaded "white person" category no matter what I did. I had one of those census people come around and I said I was of hispanic descent and I consider myself American.

One thing I have found, and this is only recently, is that some hispanic groups look down on other hispanic groups and will discriminate against them. I thought this was weird but made sense since people seem to always be trying to look down on others that are not like them anyway.

[Jefe]

Meh, it's not only by the way one looks. Take for example when I go out w/ my girl (she's white) we'd get the stink eye from other Latinos. Honestly it doesn't bother me, I don't give two shits what others think about me. The thing is that my girl ain't like me, so it'd bother her. There's been a couple of times when I had to approach them and be like "what's up, do we know you?" And of course they are a bunch of pussies to say anything.

One time I went to Mexico I was having a convo w/ my mum and I overheard this guy saying something like "mr. gringo over there doesn't know Spanish anymore." I did tell him to fuck off since my mum got kinda mad. So there you go, doesn't matter where or who you are, some people will always throw crap your way.

[archibaldcrane]

I pretty much came to the point where I no longer cared. I was going to be disbelieved, called something nasty, or shoved into the dreaded "white person" category no matter what I did.

Why is that dreaded? It sounds like you are more than half caucasian by descent. Do you know your mother's side as well as your father's? Hispanic has nothing to do with race - it is not a race.

Like many Cubans are for example, you can be 100% white (caucasian) and hispanic at the same time.

[Rhinox]

Back to the Mexican vs. American thing for a bit:

Why do Americans seem to take all this pride in the countries their ancestors came from (at least sometimes), but Mexican-Americans only seem to look back to Mexico? Hispanic people are descended from European, African and Native American relatives too - why get all hardcore about being Mexican? There's an ancestry that exists before Mexico even became a country, but I've yet to meet a hispanic person who knows their roots like most white people do.

Donde Esta your Árbol genealógico, Mexico?

What does it matter? A lot of it is due toward that antagonizing of Mexicans here in the states. I Identify more with Mexico with my heritage then Spain simply because I still have a lot of family in Mexico. If any Spanish relatives exist they're so distant its family in name only.

We've done the research and were from a small province called Burgos, Spain.

but back to my question. Why does it matter? Why does it bug you?

btw if you're to see my family you would think we're polish.

[Rhinox]

They do know about their past, but if they live in Arizona they won't admit to shit right now i can tell you that.

You're retarded.

[Yabby]

k