What's Better?

[Raen Ryong]

Snow, snow, and snow. Someone correct me if I am way off here, but gorget should almost always win even without needing the extra acc. Compared to no neck, justice is giving you 2 base damage from str (1 fstr, 1 wsc) and 10 or 11 attack. So the str is giving you 8 damage times whatever your pdif is. The 0.1 ftp from the gorget is giving you like 15 damage times your pdif (possibly as low as 12 damage if you are a taru with no str merits using vengeance). Your pdif has to be pretty low for 11 attack * 4 hits to make up that difference, like down around 1.3 or so I think. And that is assuming all 4 hits land. The gorget's damage boost is only dependant on the first hit landing, justice is only giving you 6 damage when 1 hit misses (which happens nearly 1/5 of the time). So unless you are fighting something level 85 with 300+ defense and you have no chaos roll, minuets or angon, snow should win.

Justice gives you between 2 and 3 (rarely 4 I think) fSTR+WSC increase (assuming fSTR uncapped). This is ~2/140 = 1.43% damage increase per hit on average. 11 Attack is a bit harder but should be around 2%ish per hit. Gorget is a 2.58% overall damage increase (0.1/3.875). This will be less if a Double Attack occurs.

Accuracy capped, I don't see JTorque being outdamaged by Snow outside of extreme circumstances.

[Clerix]

for SAM WS:

Smilodon +1 vs Forager's.

Now, just eye-balling, Smilo+1 does more only on Gekko, where Foragers does more on Rana, Kasha, and Yukikaze.

Am I right in assuming that Smilo+1 is only for gekko, or were those gekko's in smilo+1 doing more damage than gekkos in foragers a fluke?

[Mercilessturtle]

It's always 1 wsc, and it is 1 fstr 75% of the time, 2 fstr 25% of the time, there's no way to get 4. I definitely underestimated how much damage 11 attack adds though. Looking at the actual increase from even 10 attack, justice will always win unless you are capping ratio or fstr (or need the acc). Sorry about that.

[Chen]

It's always 1 wsc,

what if you're sitting at str/4 with remainder a of 3 pre torque?

[Jem]

what if you're sitting at str/4 with remainder a of 3 pre torque?

Might be missing something here but do you basically mean 8 total STR? (8 x 0.25) = 2. 2 x 0.83 = 1.66. Which is 1 after flooring.

So 1 WSC and 2 fSTR.

[Mercilessturtle]

what if you're sitting at str/4 with remainder a of 3 pre torque?

That wouldn't get you two because wsc has a level penalty, you only get 83% of it at level 75. Of course, I was wrong again anyways. There are actually a few reasonable combinations of race and gear set that will put you at a breakpoint to get 2 wsc from a torque. I thought you would always end up too high or too low without making a really bad guillotine set intentionally.

At exactly 183 str+mnd you will get 2 wsc from adding torque, which could be reasonable for hume or galka. I think tarus and mithras may need to trade away too much acc/atk to get that high, and elvaans might be too high already. Depending on your race it may be possible to shuffle some slots around to aim for 183 exactly without hurting your damage. For reference, the amount of str+mnd your guillotine set needs (not including the torque) to get +2 wsc:

(without str merits/with 5 str merits)
taru: 67/62
hume: 58/53
mithra: 64/59
elvaan: 48/43
galka: 55/50

[Virg]

Full WAR buffed zerg situation, Soul Voice double March/Minuet/Madrigal, Feint, Angon, 300TP
Steel Cyclone VS King's Justice. Elvaan, 5/5 STR Merits, 8/8 Gaxe Merits.

KJ Gear:
Perdu/Pole Grip/Olibanum Sachet
Heca Cap/Flame Gorget/Bushinomimi/Brutal
Adaberk/Alky's/Rajas/Triumph
Cerb+1/Warwolf/Hachi Haidate/Heca Feet+1

Steel Cyclone same as above except Osode instead of Adaberk and appropriate Gorget.

[urat]

Well with dancer's big overhaul in a couple days I am at a big crossroads and need to make a choice.

I am currently using azoth/airy buckler as dnc/sam, and azoth/cobra knife as /nin for max tp/min (0/5 on sleight kukri >.<)

But now with this update, I no longer need /nin for dual wield, however I have run into a snag.

I am almost done the second last trial on my Athame, I'm going for the full fledged dmg+ OAT one.

Now, I have realized that if I do choose to dual wield with my Athame, I will be best to offhand the Athame and main hand the Kartika, the dmg+ dagger (can go up to 33+5 dmg, which is pretty epic) for maxing my wses.

However, because of this when I dual wield one OAT weapon, it cuts its double attack in half. Because of this dual wielding, in fact, lowers my tp/min

I have done all the calculations, so here they are:

Spoiler: show

Athame:
delay = 190 = 3.1666 seconds
tp/hit = 5.2
Store TP = 7.8
delay haste (DW) = 2.691661
delay haste (Buckler) = 2.659944
delay DW = 2.28791185
Kartika
Delay = 201 = 3.35 seconds
tp/hit = 5.5
Store TP = 8.25
delay haste = 2.8475
delay DW = 2.42

Buckler:
Hits/min = 26.2247
OAT = 39.33717
Saber Dance= 40.6482~45.893225
Tp/min = 317.056~357.967

Dual Wield:
Combined Delay = 4.70791185
Combined Tp/round = 16.05
Rounds/min = 12.7445
base tp/min = 204.549

OAT/SD
Kartika = 12.7445* 0.1~0.5 = +1.27745~6.37225
= +10.539~52.57 TP/min
Athame = 12.7445* 0.55~0.75 = +7.009~9.558
=+54.6702~74.5524 TP/min

Base tp/min + OAT/SD TP/min
=269.7582~331.67 TP/min

Which results in using my airy buckler giving me 317.056~357.967 TP/min, and dual wielding giving me 269.7582~331.67 TP/min.

In other words I am trading an increase of 7 dmg to my mainhand + 1 hit to my weaponskills for a loss in 47.2978~26.297 TP/min, depending on Saber Dance's strength at the time.

On top of that however I will be able to sell my airy buckler for 3 mil, getting me a chuchulains mantle and then another 600K or so for selling my foragers

tl;dr:

Whats better, 7 dmg + 1 hit for weaponskill + chuchulain's mantle + 600K or

+47.2978~26.297 TP/min?

Hallllp

[blue]

With the coming update for Spirit link which lets you obtain half of wyverns tp(aka mini-mediate) which would be better to merit jump/hi-jump/spirit link?
To be honest I never much glanced at the tp-gain of the wyvern and since they do not get songs does it mean it sucks or does it mean it sucks until I cap Empathy?
With wyrm mail it can get store-tp of /sam.

[Emdief]

PLD/NIN, hi-def HNM scenario, taco.
Joyeuse (assuming 45% proc rate) or Antea (assuming 40% proc rate) for Atonement build?
Obviously asking because of the difference on the base DMG, since hitting faster but for 0 is not that useful.

[Chen]

stick to joyeuse, i'm told that base dmg doesn't factor so much into hitting for 0's, it's mainly going to be a question of your attack levels.

joyeuses extra 3.5% swings should beat out the higher D

[Dantrag]

Full WAR buffed zerg situation, Soul Voice double March/Minuet/Madrigal, Feint, Angon, 300TP
Steel Cyclone VS King's Justice. Elvaan, 5/5 STR Merits, 8/8 Gaxe Merits.

KJ Gear:
Perdu/Pole Grip/Olibanum Sachet
Heca Cap/Flame Gorget/Bushinomimi/Brutal
Adaberk/Alky's/Rajas/Triumph
Cerb+1/Warwolf/Hachi Haidate/Heca Feet+1

Steel Cyclone same as above except Osode instead of Adaberk and appropriate Gorget.

I'd go with SC @ 300% TP 99% of the time. MS + WC makes SC a pretty damn big hitter.

[ZhiGaruda]

PLD/NIN, hi-def HNM scenario, taco.
Joyeuse (assuming 45% proc rate) or Antea (assuming 40% proc rate) for Atonement build?
Obviously asking because of the difference on the base DMG, since hitting faster but for 0 is not that useful.

My main question is, why are you using a taco? You are /NIN, meaning you are only falling back on getting hit / shield blocks very rarely. 95% of the time with shadows up you'll want to be hitting, and for above 0. Pizza+1, or change to a different job.

[Darkmagi]

My main question is, why are you using a taco? You are /NIN, meaning you are only falling back on getting hit / shield blocks very rarely. 95% of the time with shadows up you'll want to be hitting, and for above 0. Pizza+1, or change to a different job.

Pretty sure pld won't be capping acc in pizza so sushi or gtfo. He said HNMs after all.

[ZhiGaruda]

Pretty sure pld won't be capping acc in pizza so sushi or gtfo. He said HNMs after all.

He was mentioning hitting for 0, but yeah probably.

[Mrbeansman]

Whats the best budget food to use for greater colibiri as a 75 DRG?

[Dooom]

Gonna go with mithkabobs, as you should probably be capping acc on them without crab sushi, or at least at a high enough acc level that the bonuses from mithkabobs outweight what little acc crab sushi would give; unless you're getting some crazy buff combination like chaos roll, 2x minuets, and consistant dia2/3.

[ZhiGaruda]

Whats the best budget food to use for greater colibiri as a 75 DRG?

Subs are a nice choice, over mithkabobs, if the funds allow.

[Mercilessturtle]

Full WAR buffed zerg situation, Soul Voice double March/Minuet/Madrigal, Feint, Angon, 300TP
Steel Cyclone VS King's Justice. Elvaan, 5/5 STR Merits, 8/8 Gaxe Merits.

Yeah, at 300 TP steel cyclone wins mighty strikes or not, warrior's charge or not. Warrior's charge example:

(weapon + wsc + fstr) * ftp
SC: (96 + 100 + 18) * (3 + 1) = 856
KJ: (96 + 65 + 18) * (1.5 + 1 + 1 + 1) = 805

So before considering pdif, steel cyclone has already won. And steel cyclone gets a pdif boost, KJ doesn't. Factor in accuracy and KJ falls behind even more being 4 hits instead of 2.

[Marcicus]

Accuracy should not be an issue if he's getting SV Madrigals and Feint.