What's Better?

[Lycidia]

There will always be situations where casting Cure IV is not only the best option, but the correct one for necessary HP recovery. You must suck at the job?

I wouldn't know. Apparently my DDs are just so good that they just don't die much and always keep hate properly. I'm very fortunate.

Also, with capped regen, capped enm-, lots of cure potency +, cure speed, and sufficient haste/fast cast macroing, there's so rarely any need for Cure IV that I've considered removing my macro for it. A few things hit for more than 900 on crits, it's true, but a solid Cure V for 900+ followed by a speedy Cure III usually tops off most DDs not using a body boost, and is a swifter response than V+IV, generating, in addition, less enm.

If that means I suck, I stand corrected. My apologies.

[Hyriu]

I used Cure IV more than Cure V when I was playing WHM a lot.

[Lycidia]

I used Cure IV more than Cure V when I was playing WHM a lot.

I have no response to this, because /facepalm is rude.

[Hyriu]

Wasting MP is cool man, obviously you should use Cure V when it's required but using Cure IV is usually quite efficient since you really should have a correct Cure IV build with -ENM(and good players surrounding you) and not take hate.

I'm rude I know.

[Cream Soda]

Kinematics always does these comparisons based on his own set, so just looking for general comments or if someone cares to make a comparison for higher end builds

Spoiler: show

As a first pass comparison I'm going to make a lot of assumptions to keep things simple. Results are not necessarily completely accurate.

1: User is level 80 with 301 base skill, 16 skill from merits, and that base damage calculations remain as they are now. Total base damage: 37 (would go to 38 with Faith Torque).
2: Target is comparable to level 82 greater colibri. So, level 87 with 315 defense with Dia II.

Stats:
+6 Store TP (Rajas + Brutal)
+5 fStr
14 WSC
510 attack (~425 base plus 85 for YCBs)
10% crit rate
5% KA merits
100% accuracy (will adjust for accuracy later, if needed)
0% haste (not relevant for these comparisons)

Baseline: d18/delay+48, no mods

Melee hit: 37 + 18 + 5 = 60
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42
cRatio = 1.269

D = damage
r = cRatio
c = crit rate
Avg melee hit = D * r + D * c

Avg melee hit = 60 * 1.269 + 60 * .1 = 82.14
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

TP per hit: 4.9 * 1.06 = 5.1

17 hits between weaponskills.

Hits per round: 2 + .1 + .175 = 2.275

Overage hits: 50% of hits over the first, plus 50% chance of second round = 1.775

Rounds per weaponskill = 18.775 hits / 2.275 hits per round = 8.253 rounds

Damage per round: 2.1 * 82.14 + .175 * 57.50 = 182.56

Total melee damage: 1,507

Boosted attack: 425 + 79 = 504 + 85 = 589
Boosted cRatio: 1.520
Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 60+14 = 911

Total damage: 2,246

Delay per round = 348

Total delay per weaponskill: 348 * 8.253 + 180 = 3,052

DPS: 2,431 / (3,052/60) = 47.792


Destroyers

Avg melee hit = 60 * 1.269 + 60 * .16 = 85.74
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.1 * 85.74 + .175 * 57.50 = 190.12

Total melee damage: 1,569
Total damage: 2,480

DPS: 2,480 / (3,052/60) = 48.755


Afflictors

Afflictors
DMG:+22 Delay:+96
Critical hit rate +3%
Additional effect:
"Kick Attacks"+7
Lv.77 WAR, MNK, BST, NIN, PUP


With the Additional Effect: phrasing, I don't know how to deal with the +KA, so going to ignore it and look at the main aspect only.

Melee hit: 37 + 22 + 5 = 64
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 64 * 1.269 + 64 * .13 = 89.54
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.1 * 89.54 + .175 * 57.50 = 198.10

TP per hit: 5.4 * 1.06 = 5.7
15 hits per weaponskill

Rounds per weaponskill = 16.775 hits / 2.275 hits per round = 7.374 rounds

Total melee damage: 198.10 * 7.374 = 1,461

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 64+14 = 960

Total damage: 2,421

Delay per round = 396

Total delay per weaponskill: 396 * 7.374 + 180 = 3,100

DPS: 2,421 / (3,100/60) = 46.858

Destroyers is 4% better, so will depend on the Kick Attack bonus. Seems likely to be a sidegrade at best.

Assuming 100% coverage of the +7 kick rate:

Rounds per weaponskill = 16.775 hits / 2.345 hits per round = 7.154 rounds
Damage per round: 202.12
Total melee damage: 1,446
Total damage: 2,406
Total delay per weaponskill: 396 * 7.154 + 180 = 3,013

DPS: 2,406 / (3,013/60) = 47.912

Still leaves Destroyers ~2% ahead.

There's a fair likelyhood that this is geared more towards Footwork, though. If so, this would be a nice upgrade in weaponskill damage, and the +KA rate would be a pretty nice boost for Footwork itself. Should easily outdo Waghs or similar as main weapon for Footwork, assuming the +KA rate can be kept up most of the time.


Lunaris Claws

Lunaris Claws
DMG:+26 Delay:+96 DEX+3
Attack and Accuracy varies by
moon phase
Lv 80 MNK, PUP

First, without any acc/att mods at all.

Melee hit: 37 + 26 + 5 = 68
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 68 * 1.269 + 68 * .1 = 93.09
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.1 * 93.09 + .175 * 57.50 = 205.56

TP per hit: 5.4 * 1.06 = 5.7
15 hits per weaponskill

Rounds per weaponskill = 16.775 hits / 2.275 hits per round = 7.374 rounds

Total melee damage: 205.56 * 7.374 = 1,516

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 68+14 = 1,010

Total damage: 2,526

Delay per round = 396

Total delay per weaponskill: 396 * 7.374 + 180 = 3,100

DPS: 2,526 / (3,100/60) = 48.890

Compared to Destroyers' 48.755, this weapon matches them even before considering what it may grant in accuracy/attack. Definite win. If it's comparable to Selene's Bow (up to +25 for either accuracy or attack), this is a tremendous upgrade. Doubt it will be that significant, though.


Edit: Fixed WSC, and resulting adjustments to calculations.


Continuing from http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...51353326746866

Doing quick estimates of the other Magian weapons.

Summary of DPS ratings:

Baseline: 47.792
Destroyers: 48.755
Afflictors: 46.858 - 47.912
Lunaris Claws: 48.890 without acc/att bonus
Verethragna: 53.468
Ursine Claws (d19/y440/OAT): 53.062
Ursine Claws (d0/y440/OA2-3): 49.053


Assumptions:

1: User is level 80 with 301 base skill, 16 skill from merits, and that base damage calculations remain as they are now. Total base damage: 37 (would go to 38 with Faith Torque).
2: Target is comparable to level 82 greater colibri. So, level 87 with 315 defense with Dia II.

Stats:
+6 Store TP (Rajas + Brutal)
+5 fStr
14 WSC
510 attack (~425 base plus 85 for YCBs)
10% crit rate
5% KA merits
100% accuracy (will adjust for accuracy later, if needed)
0% haste (not relevant for these comparisons)

cRatio = 1.269
Boosted cRatio: 1.520


Verethragna

Dmg +27, Del +51

Base TP/hit: 4.9
Hits/weaponskill: 18.775
Rounds/weaponskill: 8.253

Melee hit: 37 + 27 + 5 = 69
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 69 * 1.269 + 69 * .1 = 94.461
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.1 * 94.461 + .175 * 57.50 = 208.431

Total melee damage: 208.431 * 8.253 = 1,720

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 69+14 = 1,022

Total damage: 2,742

Total delay per weaponskill: 351 * 8.253 + 180 = 3,077

DPS: 2,742 / (3,077/60) = 53.468


Ursine Claws (OAT)

Dmg +0+19, Del +86+54, OAT

Base TP/hit: 5.9
+Store TP: 6.2
14 hits between weaponskills
Hits per round: 1.43 * 2 + .175 = 3.035
Hit overage: 2.535

Hits per weaponskill: 16.535
Rounds per weaponskill: 16.535 / 3.035 = 5.448

Melee hit: 37 + 19 + 5 = 61
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 61 * 1.269 + 61 * .1 = 83.509
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 2.86 * 83.509 + .175 * 57.50 = 248.90

Total melee damage: 248.90 * 5.448 = 1,356

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 61+14 = 923

Total damage: 2,279

Total delay per weaponskill: 440 * 5.448 + 180 = 2,577

DPS: 2,279 / (2,577/60) = 53.062


Ursine Claws (OA2-3)
Dmg +0+0, Del +86+54, OA2-3

Assuming hit distribution of 30% 1x, 50% 2x, 20% 3x

Hits per fist: 1 + .5 + .20*2 = 1.9
Hits per fist w/Brutal: 1 + .05 + .95*50% + .95*20%*2 = 1.905
-- Can swap brutal for something else; using brutal for now for consistancy

Hits per round: 1.905 * 2 + .175 = 3.985
Hit overage: 2.535

14 hits between weaponskills
Hits per weaponskill: 16.535

Rounds per weaponskill: 16.535 / 3.985 = 4.149

Melee hit: 37 + 5 = 42
Melee kick: 37 + 5 = 42

Avg melee hit = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50
Avg melee kick = 42 * 1.269 + 42 * .1 = 57.50

Damage per round: 3.985 * 57.50 = 229.1375

Total melee damage: 229.1375 * 4.149 = 951

Weaponskill damage: 8.1 * 1.520 * 42+14 = 689

Total damage: 1,640

Total delay per weaponskill: 440 * 4.149 + 180 = 2,006

DPS: 1,640 / (2,006/60) = 49.053

[Lycidia]

Wasting MP is cool man, obviously you should use Cure V when it's required but using Cure IV is usually quite efficient since you really should have a correct Cure IV build with -ENM(and good players surrounding you) and not take hate.

I'm rude I know.

MP conservation is exactly the issue. Cure V for ohshi situations only, for the most part, because although it's the most MP efficient cure, it's still a total of 122 MP, and over the course of a battle only a small percentage of your cures have to be for > 800 hp (the general amount you need to cure with V for it to be hp/mp efficient). By the same token, unless your cure is going to hit for more than 500hp, you're wasting mp throwing out a Cure IV (my Cure III is 262 for 42, Cure IV is 528 for 80, Cure V is 918 for 122--you can do the math, but IV hitting for less than 492 is more mp per hp than Cure III).

I don't know about your shells, but in general, if somebody's lost 500 < hp < 800 in the last couple of seconds (if hp loss > 800hp, you're ohshi and you V asap), chances are REALLY good that your RDM is also throwing out a Cure IV and your BRD, if not singing, is throwing out a Cure III/Curaga II. Cure IV for 0 is 80 MP down the drain whoever casts it. Cure III for 0 is 42. Loss mitigation is obvious there. Chances are also pretty good that if people are losing that much hp that fast (and that much mp as well), then things are going badly and you're going to need your MP for V pretty soon.

In not-ohshi situations, where you don't need to maximize your MP pool, you probably don't need to use either Cure V OR Cure IV. Regen and sometimes III and you're in like flynn. In ohshi moments, wasting 80 MP (or 122) when you could be wasting 42 is just painful.

YMMV-and rude doesn't trump logic. Tell me HOW I'm wrong on this and you'll make me a better mage. I'd enjoy that.

[JustaWAR]

My terrible math skills say that the OAT Gaxe beats the High DMG one, can anyone confirm this?

Luchtaine
DMG76
Delay 514
Occasionally attacks twice


Ukonvasara
DMG109
Delay482

[Hirro]

So with hagun price dropping like crazy am I to assume Masamune? Also is there anything else better then hagun atm sorry I haven't been on in about 7 months.

[Niiro]

So with hagun price dropping like crazy am I to assume Masamune? Also is there anything else better then hagun atm sorry I haven't been on in about 7 months.

That and there are at least 2 new GKTs that would outdo Hagun that we've seen in the .dats (ones that aren't magian weapons).

I don't think either have been found yet.

[Aerynlia]

RDM is also throwing out a Cure IV

Be faster.

Also there are going to be situations that arise where you could quite possibly be the only mage, or other mages have run out of MP. Not every situation you will be in is always ideal. There will be times where Cure IV is your best option, avoiding casting it much is great for emnity. To say that casting it at all makes you bad at the job is stupid.

If you mages are so on the ball, then your tanks/melees should be able to keep shit off you too.

All in all, it really shouldn't matter what you do in 99% of situations. If you have ideal buffs then you won't need to do much of anything. If you don't, then use what's best for the situation at hand.

[Dathus]

Ok so I've been looking through the drg OAT lances.

The higher Damage one ends at D79 Dly507 Occ. Att. Twice
The lower Damage one ends at D48 Dly507 Occ Att. 2-3 Times.

So... Which would be better? The Soboro Lance or the normal OAT one?

^ Pretty much this. Also, an addendum question ontop, is it even worth having the OAT/OA2-3, or the full damage one now?

[Nameless]

I am also curious on which one to do for scythe...

Redemption
OAT Max Damage
OAT 2-3
105 dmg scythe with 5 DA

I believe it comes down to Redemption vs OAT max damage. I also speculate that with 2 more Addons coming, the OAT weapons might have similar "base weapon" coming out (the end form at least .dat wise). Based on difficulty, the OAT max damage is still by far the hardest.

[Lycidia]

Be faster.

Also there are going to be situations that arise where you could quite possibly be the only mage, or other mages have run out of MP. Not every situation you will be in is always ideal. There will be times where Cure IV is your best option, avoiding casting it much is great for emnity. To say that casting it at all makes you bad at the job is stupid.

To say "[Cast Cure IV] faster [than a really good RDM]," after I've already stated that I'd rather HE not waste MP anymore than I want to waste MP, then to call my comment stupid is somewhat amusing.

Your point is taken, though, and I apologize for making a vast, generalized statement on BG about What's Better. I'm an idiot who doesn't know the rules.

Also, I'd like to say that I was contemplating this conversation last night while playing, and I discovered on my own that there are times when Cure IV is, in fact, better than a combination of III/V.

Since generalizations without specifics are unhelpful to those trying to learn, I'll discuss the specific situation right here:

Last night in my Salvage group I was falling asleep (curse you, needing to xp my jobs and get merits on Monday night). I was slow. I wasn't keeping up with rotation or buffs. My eyes were drifting away from the screen in a way that just isn't normal for me, even when my dog is jumping on me and my family is trying to make me clean the kitchen.

The phrase "bowling ball through a drinking straw" could have been used accurately in reference to my performance.

Because of this, (and because the brd didn't have a subjob or abilities, and because our tanks were mnk/nin w/out magic, etc.) people were dying and/or needing a lot of attention. The RDM was overworked and running out of MP.

In this situation, I opened my eyes and discovered I had to throw out Cure IV quite a few times.

So...there are times when, as somebody said above, you might want to use Cure IV. That's why I haven't yet deleted my Cure IV macro.

Doesn't mean it makes you good to do it regularly, and it particularly doesn't mean it makes you bad NOT to do it regularly.

Sorry I sucked guys.

Oh yeah, and sorry I pulled hate and died due to using Cure IV too much while naked. That was dumb of me.

[Heian]

Since the cap has been extended to 80 and many of us old PLDs now have to head back out to EXP I am curious as to what would be better for EXP. PLD/NIN or PLD/SAM. Both have their pros and their cons.

/NIN allows for Joyuse/Organics or Joyuse/Justice Sword and utilizing A+ Sword skill, shadows, using Suppa, etc where as /SAM is using a Great Sword and Spinning Slash, Hasso, but then only has B rated skill. Personally I am leaning more towards PLD/NIN and stacking Haste as I do not have GS capped and Spinning Slash unlocked and letting my friend go /SAM as he has more of a build suited towards that.

Any thoughts?

[Nameless]

GS is probably going to be slightly better damage wise since you will be facing harder mobs and SS provides a better boost for your lack of accuracy and attack as a one hander. The B skill really isn't that bad consider you are getting accuracy from dex and hasso and should have no problem eating pizza if necessary.

I know I am going to do /sam and use my OAT GS to lvl pld. Heck, I think I can even out DD some of the real DDs with a legit setup since I have capped GS merit.

[Aerynlia]

Oh yeah, and sorry I pulled hate and died due to using Cure IV too much while naked. That was dumb of me.

See that's where you messed up.

Places like salvage are a prime example where, for the most part, you can cure IV pretty regularily and not worry about it. The times where you would have to worry about it, if you need to spam cure IV, then slow or elegy is off. We don't even really bring whms anymore to salvage anyways, but it's one of the places where what you do doesn't really matter hatewise.

In low man groups it's a lot easier to coordinate with your healers. Up until recently I played with the same group of people for a very long time and we didn't even have to talk because you get used to each other. You end up wasting a lot less MP that way. In large man groups, it doesn't really matter a whole hell of a lot. Eventually you'll notice you are either the fastest one or not, and you should convince whoever sucks more to stop wasting MP.

[Heian]

GS is probably going to be slightly better damage wise since you will be facing harder mobs and SS provides a better boost for your lack of accuracy and attack as a one hander. The B skill really isn't that bad consider you are getting accuracy from dex and hasso and should have no problem eating pizza if necessary.

I know I am going to do /sam and use my OAT GS to lvl pld. Heck, I think I can even out DD some of the real DDs with a legit setup since I have capped GS merit.

Yeah it's sad what my WAR/SAM can do with the lack of gear compared to some people I have been meriting with. My only problem is I will have to go out and cap GS and get spinning slash. Either way I am going to play with some setups for both and post some results.

[Orcai]

trying to decide which is best sub katana now, assuming mozu(kannagi) main

mozu/oat (vnm)
/oa2-3
/dmg+23 double attack +7

OA2-3 looks like the most fun, but the math might say differently. any thouhts?

[Hyriu]

shit I didn't read.

It's ok it's all about Cure VI now.

[solanis]

I am also curious on which one to do for scythe...

I second this, which is the best magican scythe atm? I see a few nice ones, but I have no clue which maths stronger...

522 - Vengence
dmg 78 delay 528
OAT

1467 - Maleficence
dmg 51 delay 528
OAThree

1469 - Maleficence
dmg 105 delay 528
double attk +5

1463 - Redemption
dmg 113 delay 502