What's Better?

[AmanoDRK]

heya guys, how about Plaga Scythe for DRK as "pre-empyreal"?

seems sexy dmg + delay to build some 5hit + 100% proc darkness dmg maybe add some good numbers over tred/moli/perdu

(assuming 8/8 scythe, capped skill and good acc setup)

*P.D: years reading this page and it's my 1st post don't flame me rofl *

[requim]

Assuming Plaga's dark damage proc was indeed 100%, it would out damage ultimatum (trial before pre-emp). The worm doesn't look that hard to kill with a competent group and you can easily get people there for farming runs, so it's pretty attainable for Joe Schmoe.

However, the STP Reckoning scythe off the WS trials is likely a superior option. Don't have its immediate stats in front of me, but I would guess it has 8-9 STP and 105~106 damage with the same delay. Should make a 5hit build fairly practical, though again its stats weren't listed on FFXIAH or wiki so unsure.

In general though it seems like most of the jobs can easily opt to main hand the STP WS trial weapons for almost maxed base damage on top of them being very, very easy to get.

[Byrthnoth]

Assuming Plaga's dark damage proc was indeed 100%, it would out damage ultimatum (trial before pre-emp). The worm doesn't look that hard to kill with a competent group and you can easily get people there for farming runs, so it's pretty attainable for Joe Schmoe.

However, the STP Reckoning scythe off the WS trials is likely a superior option. Don't have its immediate stats in front of me, but I would guess it has 8-9 STP and 105~106 damage with the same delay. Should make a 5hit build fairly practical, though again its stats weren't listed on FFXIAH or wiki so unsure.

In general though it seems like most of the jobs can easily opt to main hand the STP WS trial weapons for almost maxed base damage on top of them being very, very easy to get.

Generally, the WS stp weapons have lower delay with their stp. Good for 1h users, not as good for 2h users. It is probably not the way to a 5-hit.

[Dooom]

If a weapon has a 100% en-effect then it's gonna suck for you using it if you're in pt with a dancer (assuming, like most en-effects, it overwrites sambas). 10% haste or darkness damage? Not a tough choice.

[requim]

Generally, the WS stp weapons have lower delay with their stp. Good for 1h users, not as good for 2h users. It is probably not the way to a 5-hit.

FFXIAH showed Reckoning having 528 delay (and 88 base damage).

GK is 91/464 5STP, which is higher dmg/dly than it's pre-emp counter part.
PLM is 98/492 8STP, pre-emp is 101/492

Looks like they are either equal if not slower than their counterparts, but essentially all made to drop hits. Not sure about the GA or GS, but I would guess that they have the standard delay or slightly slower and have +/- 3 base damage from their pre-emp counterparts. This can easily be answered by someone who's online checking in Jeuno.

Specifically for slightly below to slightly above average geared DRGs or DRKs, if the STP is enough for you to drop Askar body for full Perle to get more(same) haste/acc/atk/str/dex than these would be the new best weapons.

It's like SE went all Swedish on the two handers gear. Your going to have a huge portion of the two handers wearing easily attainable, identical gear with only the top rung of players really having the ability to upgrade. I miss the socioeconomic disparity before STP trial wep + full perle T_T

[Byrthnoth]

Hmmm... Well, I know the gaxe has 482 delay or something. May be worth checking in game.

[AmanoDRK]

Thx guys seems is a good choice pre-empyreal with augments also relatively easy to get (worth check anyways Store-Tp ones, i was just pissed about 50 mandragora stuff to get Redemption and didn't check more trials, thx for mention requim)

If a weapon has a 100% en-effect then it's gonna suck for you using it if you're in pt with a dancer (assuming, like most en-effects, it overwrites sambas). 10% haste or darkness damage? Not a tough choice.

Well about this... not a bad argument hmmm maybe my LS is outdated but... mostly do endgame on my DRK and... 999.99% of the time there isn't a DNC in my prty also on merit, for sure ur right lol but i think isn't a good point to rate it as good or not :s since this situation is very remote.

[Dooom]

Then without being rude, yes, I'd say it's a bit out-dated. I try to get a dnc in my pt whenever I can (or come on dnc myself), that extra 10% haste from fully merited samba is awesome (assuming marchx2 + haste).

[solanis]

I thought the OAT scythe was superior, even to Redemption? In its completed form, anyway.

[Nightfyre]

Well about this... not a bad argument hmmm maybe my LS is outdated but... mostly do endgame on my DRK and... 999.99% of the time there isn't a DNC in my prty also on merit, for sure ur right lol but i think isn't a good point to rate it as good or not :s since this situation is very remote.

As Dooooooooooooooooooooom mentioned you're a little behind the top-tier times to not be running with a DNC whenever reasonable (this is far more than just merits), but this is far from an uncommon situation. It's a small part people not understanding just how valuable a DNC can be and a very large part most DNCs are unfortunately fairly terrible. Like, 5 Reverse Flourish 5 Building Flourish fulltime Saber Dance with no haste gear terrible.

How about capped Accuracy but uncapped Haste and uncapped Attack, would 20 Attack stand any chance in hell against 2% Haste? I'm doubting it, but I may as well ask. And, yeah, no Hasso involved.

No. Even on a job with a high TP:WS split like MNK or NIN you're not going to see the same numbers from raw attack as with haste because it's only affecting part of your DPS rather than the entirety and attack suffers diminishing returns.

Also, what is an appropriate Accuracy rating to be aiming for at level 80? I'm sure it'll vary, but let's suppose Greater Colibri were simply leveled up, what would I be looking for?

Not entirely sure. For what it's worth I've been using pizza on BLU with no problems when fighting fodder mobs and lesser NMs in Abyssea, but I'm not sure what level our mobs usually scale up to when farming.

[Arnavel]

Hi guys, general question on tp build, would it be worthwhile with full perle set on sam with full STP merits. (wont be getting byakko / usu anytime soon)

Keitonotachi (464 Delay, 91 DMG, 5stp)
Rose Strap
Smart Grenade
Turban
Chiv Chain
Bushinomimi
Brutal Earring
Hauby
Dusk Gloves
Raja Ring
Ecphoria Ring
Foragers Mantle
Swift Belt
Blitzer Poleyn (3 haste 7 acc)
Fuma Sunate

Also have askar body available, dont have gil for things like black / white tathlum.

Thanks

[Motenten]

How about capped Accuracy but uncapped Haste and uncapped Attack, would 20 Attack stand any chance in hell against 2% Haste? I'm doubting it, but I may as well ask. And, yeah, no Hasso involved.

Assuming mnk, then uncapped haste is primarily for those without a Black Belt:

Turban+Brown Belt+Aurore pants+Fumas = 19%
Turban+Brown Belt+Byakkos+Usu = 20%
Turban+Brown Belt+Byakkos+Fumas = 21%

Would end up with the following increases in damage, allowing for JA delays of Boost+WS:

Solo: 19%-21%; +2% is worth 2.35% to 2.41%
w/Haste: 34%-36%; +2% is worth 2.86% to 2.94%
w/Marches: 54%-56%; +2% is worth 4.00% to 4.17%
w/Samba: 64%-66%; +2% is worth 5.00% to 5.26%


Assuming mob def of 370 at level 80 (extrapolated upwards from Seaboard Vultures) and 500 base attack, +20 attack would be worth (before adjusting for TP/WS split):

Base: 5.14%
w/Dia II: 5.00%
w/Dia III: 4.93%
w/Box Step: 4.86%

Given 65% melee/35% weaponskill, 20 attack would match/exceed 2% haste if you had Haste but no Marches/Samba. It would also generally be better if you're solo (thus no outside haste) fighting mobs that you're not capping attack on.

Of course presuming you're speaking of Aurore Gloves, the extra +4 str should put them ahead in pretty much any situation.

[Onorgul]

Assuming mnk, then uncapped haste is primarily for those without a Black Belt:

How do you figure? I wear Walahra Turban, Byakko's Haidate, Black Belt, and Usukane Sune-Ate. I would need Aurore Gloves to hit the absolute cap, Tiercel Necklace to come just under it. Monk doesn't automatically cap Haste, Black Belt or not.

Also, I think you quoted the wrong part of my question, but I'd certainly be interested to hear your thoughts on a general Accuracy figure to aim towards.

[requim]

Most common scenario is okote vs aurore gloves for BB-less monks. If people with BBs don't wear that 1% haste neck, sacrificing even more attack gloves for haste gloves seems silly.

Relevant haste values would be
Turban+brown+haidate+fuma=20
Turban+brown+haidate+fumas+aurore=23

Haste increases would be
21=>23=2.60%
36=>38=3.22%
56=>58=4.8%
66=>68=6.25%

This would be on top of the 4 STR from aurore gloves instead of the |18| attack from okotes.

So a monk would have 37~38 base damage from skill, potentially some fstr, and then an 18~23 damage weapon. Adding another fstr would give you 56 1.5%~1.8% increase or damage.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with your calculations for 20 attack since I would think by decreasing the attack needed to cap pdif you would actually be increasing the value of attack before you cap, no? Quick math I wouldn't think okotes 20 attack would be making larger than a 4-5% increase in damage.

So even in moderately low haste situations it seems like aurore can match okotes and then the more haste you have the better they get.

[AmanoDRK]

As Dooooooooooooooooooooom mentioned you're a little behind the top-tier times to not be running with a DNC whenever reasonable (this is far more than just merits), but this is far from an uncommon situation. It's a small part people not understanding just how valuable a DNC can be and a very large part most DNCs are unfortunately fairly terrible. Like, 5 Reverse Flourish 5 Building Flourish fulltime Saber Dance with no haste gear terrible.

Well thx for advice guys, unfortunatelly Nightfyre i really won't have this situation by my side, since as u said most of the ppl that have DNC around me never use/be requested as it >< over their SAMs CORs and stuff or don't use it like u say maybe wrong merits, i know that a DNC can be great (not maybe as u show me on this posts but well, always is a good time to learn)

but well maybe is a stupid request but gonna try if rewrite DNC effects or not when i put a hand on it.

[Nightfyre]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with your calculations for 20 attack since I would think by decreasing the attack needed to cap pdif you would actually be increasing the value of attack before you cap, no? Quick math I wouldn't think okotes 20 attack would be making larger than a 4-5% increase in damage.

Nope. Increasing attack and lowering defense accomplish the same end result: increasing pDIF. Increasing pDIF has decreasing returns; contrast adding 18 attack against a mob with 400 defense, then 358 defense, then 340 defense (normal, +dia II, +level 1 box step).

[Motenten]

Assuming mnk, then uncapped haste is primarily for those without a Black Belt:

How do you figure? I wear Walahra Turban, Byakko's Haidate, Black Belt, and Usukane Sune-Ate. I would need Aurore Gloves to hit the absolute cap, Tiercel Necklace to come just under it. Monk doesn't automatically cap Haste, Black Belt or not.

Because at that point you're not using the full 2% of the gloves, only 1.36%, and it reduces their value for the purpose of the comparison sigificantly. If you're at 24% haste and adding the Aurore Gloves then you need to use 2/3 of the values I listed for the haste improvements, which easily drops it well below the value of OKote (though not accounting for the +4 str, as the requested comparison was the 20 att vs 2% haste).

To get the full value of the haste you need a slightly more limited gear set, and thus I assumed Brown Belt, as that's the most likely difference.

Also, I think you quoted the wrong part of my question

Yep, woops. Will fix that.

Also, what is an appropriate Accuracy rating to be aiming for at level 80? I'm sure it'll vary, but let's suppose Greater Colibri were simply leveled up, what would I be looking for?

I've checked Seaboard Vultures (lvl 83-84), and to reach capped hit rate on them at level 77 (when they're 6-7 levels above you, like Greater Colibri at 75) you need 409-419 accuracy. I haven't verified any other mobs, but at this point I would say you need roughly the same or a tiny bit more relative accuracy as any other time. You can expect the mobs' evasion to go up by ~25 for the mobs you'll fight at 80 compared to 75, while your skill went up by 25, and thus gained 22 accuracy. So you might need 3 more accuracy from gear and/or food to reach the same effective hit rate.

[Byrthnoth]

Attack/Defense - OtherAttack/Defense = change in cRatio

418/400 - 400/400 with no level correction = +.045 cRatio
418/340 - 400/340 with no level correction = +.053 cRatio

So 18 Attack is a larger increase in cRatio the lower the mob's defense is (duh). If you're trying to say that adding attack has less of an effect the more attack you have, then that's not right either:

418/400 - 400/400 with no level correction = +.045 cRatio
468/400 - 450/400 with no level correction = +.045 cRatio

As far as I know, increasing pDIF has decreasing returns if you're near the pDIF cap, but not otherwise?


PS. I've confirmed only WAR gets the low-delay 2H weapon.
DRG Polearm - D98, 492 delay, STP+8, 13.3 TP/hit
WAR GA - D97, 488 delay, STP+6, 13.2 TP/hit
DRK Scythe, D105, 528 delay, STP+7, 14.4 TP/hit

[Nightfyre]

418/400 - 400/400 with no level correction = +.045 cRatio
468/400 - 450/400 with no level correction = +.045 cRatio

Sure, but in one of these situations that's a 4.5% increase and in the other it's 4%.

[Byrthnoth]

Sure, but in one of these situations that's a 4.5% increase and in the other it's 4%.

Ah, okay. So you're saying that if we assume a continuous linear relationship between cRatio and pDIF, then more attack results in a lower percentage increase in pDIF even before we hit the cap. That's true, and I think the assumption is pretty valid based on Masa's charts.