What's Better?

[fredjanx]

Hoard ring is pretty garbage since that is costing you an fstr, 3acc/atk and then another 7acc or 1% haste that you could have worn.

It's one thing if it's mandatory for a specific hit build, it's another when you try to tweak a build to include inferior items. Dropping an accuracy ring and aurum body (~13accuracy) on top of another -3 accuracy seems really silly to still strive for a 5 hit since you've already compromised your gear.

Reckoning provides a viable 6 hit without /SAM and a potential 5 hit. Outside of those two situations you're far better off with an Absolution or another scythe of your choice.

Rose Strap
Aurum Cuirass
White Tath
Rajas Ring
Brutal Earring

that better? =P
Although Aurum Cuirass is fairly unrealistic...

[requim]

Although Aurum Cuirass is fairly unrealistic...

And with it the plausibility that a 5 hit is worthwhile. (note: don't need white tathlum)

A 6-hit fire path Absolution using full perle, rajas ring, and /SAM is likely the best option for your typical DRK. Obvious room for upgrades with harder to acquire gear.

Remember that just because you can achieve a certain level of hit build or themed gear doesn't make it optimal. Having to swap out key pieces of gear: trying to use Askar body over Haub +1, White Tath over bombs, hoard over sniper's+1/toreadors, etc etc can decrease your accuracy by over 30, which assuming you're not capped that would basically add 1.5 misses every other WS, giving you a 5.5 hit build.

[fredjanx]

Remember that just because you can achieve a certain level of hit build or themed gear doesn't make it optimal. Having to swap out key pieces of gear: trying to use Askar body over Haub +1, White Tath over bombs, hoard over sniper's+1/toreadors, etc etc can decrease your accuracy by over 30, which assuming you're not capped that would basically add 1.5 misses every other WS, giving you a 5.5 hit build.

Yeah, I posted that a proper 6-hit build would blow Reckoning 5-hit if you don't have aurum cuirass, but edited it out.

Just because you can make x hit builds doesn't mean that they'll be good

-quote from AH

[Byrthnoth]

Anyway, I think the ideal option is an stp scythe and a fire scythe. If you can't get both and can't reasonably 5-hit the stp one, you will be better off with the spiral hell one.

Stp one for /nin 6-hit, fire for /Sam.

If you want an easy/good scythe for your drk though, go with spiral hell.

[Mercilessturtle]

Anyway, I think the ideal option is an stp scythe and a fire scythe. If you can't get both and can't reasonably 5-hit the stp one, you will be better off with the spiral hell one.

Stp one for /nin 6-hit, fire for /Sam.

If you want an easy/good scythe for your drk though, go with spiral hell.

Going from 6 hit to 5 hit is a bigger increase in damage than going from 7 hit to 6 hit. That's why STR magian beats STP magian when /nin. No point in doing the STP one at all unless you can 5 hit it /sam. A level 80 drk should easily be able to use aurum and carbonara on everything they used hauby+pizza on at 75.

[belzedar]

A trio of DRG questions. Apologies if I missed this, but I didn't see a definitive answer out of the polearm discussion.

Stingray D98 (Store TP + 8) + Pole Strap
Stingray D101 (Impulse Drive +10%) + Rose Strap
Langdebeve D98 (6 Str 20 attack) + Rose Strap

Eliminating common factors it's 2% DA vs. 3 base damage vs. 6 Str 20 attack. I'm most interested in the two stingrays since they're so much easier to obtain. I know the Rose Strap builds do not give a "true" 6-hit, but I can swap from perle to aurum + homams when necessary.

Next, for Drakesbane: Aurum Cuirass vs. Zahak's Mail vs. Perle Hauberk. Assume acc is capped, but I'm not close to capping ddex. Eliminating common factors:
4 Dex 15 Attack
2 Str 6 Dex 3% Crit
8 Acc 8 Attack 2% Crit

Finally: when Brisk Mask and Goading Belt become attainable, I assume it would it be worth it to shove Store TP into every available slot to make a 5 hit Stingray? Comparing to the 101D Stingray above, and assuming rajas, rose strap, and goading belt in both builds:

5 hit (98D Stingray, Brisk Mask, Aurum Cuirass, Homam x 3, Ecphoria, White Tathlum)
vs.
6 hit (101D Stingray, Full Perle, Blitz Ring, Thew Bomblet)

Reduces to:
5-hit
0-1 Acc depending on your starting dex
vs.
6-hit
2% Haste
3 Base damage
STR +16
dDEX +6 (acc accounted for above)
Attack +12 (24 total after account for Str above)
"Critical hit rate" +2%

I believe you can optionally replace Ecphoria with Blitz and maintain a pseudo-5 hit, which would narrow the gap to 1% Haste. Without going too far afield, I suppose you might also be able to drop the brisk mask and tathlum for carbonara, if you know for sure that acc is not an issue.

Thanks!

[Mad Friar Avelyn]

Since a question about sacrificing haste to decrease the number of hits in a build was already answered, I figured I'd ask if it was worth it to go from a 6-hit to a 5-hit with the new magian GKT even if it meant having to weaponskill in lolDomaru.

I still have a few pieces I'm missing that would prevent having to use that, but until I get them, should I stick to my 6-hit with Hagun? Overall I'd only lose a couple points of accuracy, 6% haste, and 5 STR in my weaponskill set.

[FailureMidgard]

A trio of DRG questions. Apologies if I missed this, but I didn't see a definitive answer out of the polearm discussion.

Stingray D98 (Store TP + 8) + Pole Strap
Stingray D101 (Impulse Drive +10%) + Rose Strap
Langdebeve D98 (6 Str 20 attack) + Rose Strap

Eliminating common factors it's 2% DA vs. 3 base damage vs. 6 Str 20 attack. I'm most interested in the two stingrays since they're so much easier to obtain. I know the Rose Strap builds do not give a "true" 6-hit, but I can swap from perle to aurum + homams when necessary.

Next, for Drakesbane: Aurum Cuirass vs. Zahak's Mail vs. Perle Hauberk. Assume acc is capped, but I'm not close to capping ddex. Eliminating common factors:
4 Dex 15 Attack
2 Str 6 Dex 3% Crit
8 Acc 8 Attack 2% Crit

Finally: when Brisk Mask and Goading Belt become attainable, I assume it would it be worth it to shove Store TP into every available slot to make a 5 hit Stingray? Comparing to the 101D Stingray above, and assuming rajas, rose strap, and goading belt in both builds:

5 hit (98D Stingray, Brisk Mask, Aurum Cuirass, Homam x 3, Ecphoria, White Tathlum)
vs.
6 hit (101D Stingray, Full Perle, Blitz Ring, Thew Bomblet)

Reduces to:
5-hit
0-1 Acc depending on your starting dex
vs.
6-hit
2% Haste
3 Base damage
STR +16
dDEX +6 (acc accounted for above)
Attack +12 (24 total after account for Str above)
"Critical hit rate" +2%

I believe you can optionally replace Ecphoria with Blitz and maintain a pseudo-5 hit, which would narrow the gap to 1% Haste. Without going too far afield, I suppose you might also be able to drop the brisk mask and tathlum for carbonara, if you know for sure that acc is not an issue.

Thanks!

5hit is superior.

[requim]

Going from 6 hit to 5 hit is a bigger increase in damage than going from 7 hit to 6 hit. That's why STR magian beats STP magian when /nin. No point in doing the STP one at all unless you can 5 hit it /sam. A level 80 drk should easily be able to use aurum and carbonara on everything they used hauby+pizza on at 75.

Note that while the damage return increases every time you go from X => X-1 builds, it also becomes increasingly more difficult to get that new hit build. You're not really getting increasing returns once you realize you're paying higher prices for them.

First you need increasingly more STP to drop a hit. With a 528 delay weapon, a 6 hit requires 16 STP, a 5 hit requires 39 STP, a 4 hit requires 74 STP, etc etc. Even in the best of situations you'll need to swap out other melee stats for increasingly larger amounts of STP.

Second you'll likely be forced to used more and more mediocre gear for that STP. White tathlum, hoard ring, bushido mantle, atilla's earring (for TP), etc.

Obviously you should try to reduce your hits when you're naturally close to a tier, but anything that requires you to start swapping out 3+ pieces of gear you normally wouldn't, you need to analyze whether or not its worth it (which it may or may not be).
Sometimes there is minimal sacrifices, specifically for SAMs with the STP GK or polearms, so dropping 2 hits from base can be completely worth it. Other times, like with Darknights, you have significantly less base STP, less STP gear, and the gearing is relatively more expensive.

[FailureMidgard]

Note that while the damage return increases every time you go from X => X-1 builds, it also becomes increasingly more difficult to get that new hit build. You're not really getting increasing returns once you realize you're paying higher prices for them.

First you need increasingly more STP to drop a hit. With a 528 delay weapon, a 6 hit requires 16 STP, a 5 hit requires 39 STP, a 4 hit requires 74 STP, etc etc. Even in the best of situations you'll need to swap out other melee stats for increasingly larger amounts of STP.

Second you'll likely be forced to used more and more mediocre gear for that STP. White tathlum, hoard ring, bushido mantle, atilla's earring (for TP), etc.

Obviously you should try to reduce your hits when you're naturally close to a tier, but anything that requires you to start swapping out 3+ pieces of gear you normally wouldn't, you need to analyze whether or not its worth it (which it may or may not be).
Sometimes there is minimal sacrifices, specifically for SAMs with the STP GK or polearms, so dropping 2 hits from base can be completely worth it. Other times, like with Darknights, you have significantly less base STP, less STP gear, and the gearing is relatively more expensive.

You're kinda wrong on your arbitrary # of pieces of gear. The only things that are even worth considering are haste and accuracy cap. Outside of that, every other stat is virtually meaningless beside dropping a hit in your build. Even something like 150 attack is worth losing to drop a hit off your build almost all the time.

Granted, the gear has to be available, and it's not usually that straight forward, but if you can maintain haste (or drop 1-3%) and don't lose a ton of accuracy, the rest is pretty irrelevant.

[Mercilessturtle]

Note that while the damage return increases every time you go from X => X-1 builds, it also becomes increasingly more difficult to get that new hit build. You're not really getting increasing returns once you realize you're paying higher prices for them.

First you need increasingly more STP to drop a hit. With a 528 delay weapon, a 6 hit requires 16 STP, a 5 hit requires 39 STP, a 4 hit requires 74 STP, etc etc. Even in the best of situations you'll need to swap out other melee stats for increasingly larger amounts of STP.

Second you'll likely be forced to used more and more mediocre gear for that STP. White tathlum, hoard ring, bushido mantle, atilla's earring (for TP), etc.

Obviously you should try to reduce your hits when you're naturally close to a tier, but anything that requires you to start swapping out 3+ pieces of gear you normally wouldn't, you need to analyze whether or not its worth it (which it may or may not be).
Sometimes there is minimal sacrifices, specifically for SAMs with the STP GK or polearms, so dropping 2 hits from base can be completely worth it. Other times, like with Darknights, you have significantly less base STP, less STP gear, and the gearing is relatively more expensive.

I didn't say "get a lower X hit build at all costs". I said using the store tp scythe to go 7 hit to 6 hit /nin is a smaller gain than using it to go from 6 hit to 5 hit /sam. And as a result, the str scythe ends up better for /nin. So the suggestion to use str for /sam and stp for /nin is completely backwards.

[requim]

Merci,
Wasn't saying you had said at all costs, just that your point on increasing returns is a bit misleading.

Failure,
It's true that accuracy and haste are basically the easiest way to increase your damage since it affects TP and WS, however, sacrificing large quantities of attack and strength (which only affect your TP phase, it's still 30~70% of your damage), even if it increases WS frequency, can easily be inefficient.

Like I said, if you're on the cusp of dropping a hit without major sacrifices it can easily be worth it. However, for builds where you need to change your weapon, grip, ammo, body, and other accessories...I think we can both agree that dropping two hits is an exception limited to SAMs and DRKs.

[FailureMidgard]

Failure,
It's true that accuracy and haste are basically the easiest way to increase your damage since it affects TP and WS, however, sacrificing large quantities of attack and strength (which only affect your TP phase, it's still 30~70% of your damage), even if it increases WS frequency, can easily be inefficient.

Like I said, if you're on the cusp of dropping a hit without major sacrifices it can easily be worth it. However, for builds where you need to change your weapon, grip, ammo, body, and other accessories...I think we can both agree that dropping two hits is an exception limited to SAMs and DRKs.

Weapon and Grip are a bit bigger of a deal, since they affect your WS too. Ammo and body are 2 of the least important slots to keep/best slots to sacrifice if you can get your build simply because they don't have haste. Granted, if you drop under hit cap, it starts to become questionable, but a lot people with Pizza currently have a lot of leeway on accuracy. You can shuffle it around to where you need it, and it's most definitely worth doing that IF YOU CAN GET THE STORETP to drop a hit. The only reason your "3 pieces" makes any logical sense whatsoever is that's about where you start running into issues with sacrificing multiple pieces of haste, and around 4-5% haste loss, it's not really worth bothering anymore in high buff situations. As I said, 150 attack on TP phase is easily worth less than dropping a hit from a build.

[Onorgul]

it's not really worth bothering anymore in high buff situations.

Something that's been preying on me, but how often do people actually spend in these situations with multiple buffers? With Abyssea, I've noticed that even lifelong mage players will drag out their Dragoon or Thief or whatever just because they can level it up easily there and do their Bard or Red Mage in other situations where they're more readily invited. For stuff like Einherjar and maybe Dynamis, I can definitely see these high-buff situations. But it seems like the norm has moved a lot closer to low-man situations where, at best, you might have a single Bard running around, maybe even handling Haste duty these days.

So, really, my question is how much do all these assessments of X and Y change when you're in a situation where, say, you're only looking at March and Haste? I'd say double March, but people in my LS are convinced that Minuets help more, which I find highly dubious but I'm the new guy.

[FailureMidgard]

Something that's been preying on me, but how often do people actually spend in these situations with multiple buffers? With Abyssea, I've noticed that even lifelong mage players will drag out their Dragoon or Thief or whatever just because they can level it up easily there and do their Bard or Red Mage in other situations where they're more readily invited. For stuff like Einherjar and maybe Dynamis, I can definitely see these high-buff situations. But it seems like the norm has moved a lot closer to low-man situations where, at best, you might have a single Bard running around, maybe even handling Haste duty these days.

So, really, my question is how much do all these assessments of X and Y change when you're in a situation where, say, you're only looking at March and Haste? I'd say double March, but people in my LS are convinced that Minuets help more, which I find highly dubious but I'm the new guy.

K well, the only time I don't have double march + haste is when I'm soloing (like I've been soloing VNM t1 triggers in Abyssea recently). The dancer is a bit harder to come by, in fact we don't have 1 at all atm, though in the past we did. But even for like limbus, we'd generally run melee+rdm+brd+(maybe 2nd melee), so had 2xmarch+haste. And at 80, a bard can cover it all anyway. Hasso is obviously situational, but when I say high buff, I'm not even saying -need- a dancer. With 1 bard and myself using Hasso, I'm at 72% haste at lvl 80, that's a high haste situation regardless of the fact I'm missing a dancer. If you want to assume no Hasso, fine, it's now 6-7% haste instead of 4-5% haste before the haste alone is worth more than the x-hit build, this isn't counting attack/str loss, which while I even argue an x-hit is more important almost all the time, if you're giving up 5% haste at 72%, other losses may either a: tip the scale, or b: make the setup not worth using just because there are definitely times you can use Hasso.

Also, I don't car about Abyssea exp parties...they seem to be a nightmare (I haven't done one in shell ever) in shouts where everyone comes on whatever job they want. It seems hard to find a group with a bard even, which more often than not makes me drop the group before we even enter. Everyone seems to think abyssea is full of free/easy exp, and all those groups seem to fail miserably and time out 2hrs in after getting 2-3 time chests max. I honestly believe I could make a 6man party (including a blm for magic killshots) that kills faster than most these full alliances do (inb4 someone tells me they already have). In any case, I'm perfectly geared for an abyssea exp party that gives me a bard, and I'm not personally gonna carry a different gearset for gimps in abyssea that need me to carry them, if you want to make a separate gearset for assuming no bard and a mage not hasting you, go for it.

So I dunno, how much does the math change? A bit, but I think if you can't swing double march + haste, you should switch over and mana burn whatever you're doing anyway. Dancer is a luxury, marches/haste are a must.

[Mercilessturtle]

Merci,
Wasn't saying you had said at all costs, just that your point on increasing returns is a bit misleading.

I wasn't making a general point about increasing returns, I was stating that with these specific scythes in question, STR beats STP when /nin, and stp beats str when /sam (assuming you are dropping a hit with the STP in each case).

[CDF]

There is no correct point to be made about "increasing return to store TP" anyway, as there is obviously decreasing return to store TP.

[SephYuyX]

For my gimp PLD tank set im using IR head and body.
I want any excuse to use new armor (perle) cuse im sick of seeing the same old armor.

But I assume those two IR peices are better than perle for tanking?

[Darkmagi]

For my gimp PLD tank set im using IR head and body.
I want any excuse to use new armor (perle) cuse im sick of seeing the same old armor.

But I assume those two IR peices are better than perle for tanking?

What is a tank set? JA/Cures/etc. and MDT sets are the only time you should be using IR head/body, or any of the set really. Full perle seems like the best pld tp gear if your lacking Homam/Ares body/stuff.

[Onorgul]

Solo on Bard (working on Magian trials), should I sub White Mage for Haste and Cures or Dancer for Dual Wield (have Joyeuse) and dances?