What's Better?

[Neosutra]

Nothing about Afflictors seems superior to STR Taipan Fangs. Get to 80, argument goes away.

22 damage, 61 delay
6 str, 16 attack.

vs.

22 damage, 96 delay
3% crit hit, +7 kick attacks.

61 delay will net you 17 hits, or 8.5 attack rounds to 100 TP. (with 19 stp, assuming full usu).

96 delay will net you 16 hits, or 8 attack rounds to 100 TP. (with 19 stp, assuming full usu).

You're capped on fStr on mnk due to weapon rank calculations for H2H, so you're down to just slightly higher pdif in the comparison.

The combination of afflictors saving an attack round to 100 AND adding 7% more kick attacks means Afflictors does more DoT and generates TP faster. That's not even getting into the fact that 90% of the mob's you'll be using Mnk for in a pure DD fassion you're already likely capped on pDif.

Oh, and like I said again: Afflictors take 1/100th the time to get.

People that argue for Tapian fangs just dont want the work they did to be in vain.

[Byrthnoth]

Err.... dropping a hit doesn't mean you get to 100TP faster because the delay is longer. 396 delay vs. 361 delay, and Monks both kick and miss so it isn't like 17 hits is necessarily 1 round more than 16 hits.

If you're going to argue for Afflictors, then why not argue for Lunaris Claws? D26, 96 delay, Acc/Atk boost varies with moon phase. Even without the moon phase bullshit they seem better than Afflictors.


Edit: I suppose it's also worth noting that one or two more Martial Arts traits will push Monk's delay down to the point where TP gain is increasing with decreasing weapon delay. Then 96 delay weapons will be somewhat less desirable overall.

[Motenten]

Has the nature of the "Additional Effect: Kick Attacks +7" been determined yet? How does it work?

[Darkmagi]

I imagine it works like power staff and will proc occasionally giving you 7% extra kick attacks til it wears off. Either way, OAT, OAthrice, str fangs, and MMM weapon all beat afflictors.

[Onorgul]

People that argue for Tapian fangs just dont want the work they did to be in vain.

Funny, that's pretty much what I feel about your argument for Afflictors. They're not very good even if you could maintain the proc full-time.

The reason he didn't mention Lunaris Claws is because those are actually good and take a fair bit of effort to acquire. I mean, if someone doesn't want to spend a couple hours over the course of a week to make Taipan Fangs, that's their concern, but let's not be silly about which is better.

[Motenten]

DPS comparison between the two (using high-end gear against a predefined lvl 87 target) puts Afflictors at 123.730 and str Taipan Fangs at 133.990, so the Taipan Fangs would be over 8% ahead.

Note that that assumes hume; elvaan would have more issues with str capping (set already hits capped fStr for hume). It also assumes that the +KA effect on Afflictors is active 100% of the time to give it the benefit of the doubt.

[Neosutra]

Err.... dropping a hit doesn't mean you get to 100TP faster because the delay is longer. 396 delay vs. 361 delay, and Monks both kick and miss so it isn't like 17 hits is necessarily 1 round more than 16 hits.

If you're going to argue for Afflictors, then why not argue for Lunaris Claws? D26, 96 delay, Acc/Atk boost varies with moon phase. Even without the moon phase bullshit they seem better than Afflictors.


Edit: I suppose it's also worth noting that one or two more Martial Arts traits will push Monk's delay down to the point where TP gain is increasing with decreasing weapon delay. Then 96 delay weapons will be somewhat less desirable overall.

Saying "you may miss or get a DA/KA so dropping an attack round isnt worth it" is like saying "Sam 6 hit builds aren't important because you can DA/Zanshin".

The statistics for DA/misses/KAs adding/subtracting to your attack rounds helps/hurts both combinations equally (well not completely equal due to KA+7 on Afflictors).

Talking about future Mnk martial arts traits isnt relevant because we'll also have new weapons when that happens as well.

And yes, the 26 damage ones would also be better than Tapian.

However I'll say again: Afflictors are better than Tapian and easier to get. Simple choice.

[Byrthnoth]

Saying "you may miss or get a DA/KA so dropping an attack round isnt worth it" is like saying "Sam 6 hit builds aren't important because you can DA/Zanshin".

The statistics for DA/misses/KAs adding/subtracting to your attack rounds helps/hurts both combinations equally (well not completely equal due to KA+7 on Afflictors).

Talking about future Mnk martial arts traits isnt relevant because we'll also have new weapons when that happens as well.

And yes, the 26 damage ones would also be better than Tapian.

However I'll say again: Afflictors are better than Tapian and easier to get. Simply choice.

So, what I meant was:
396*16/2.32 = 2731 Delay <-- Afflictors, with 7% KA activated, 5 KA merits and Brutal
361*17/2.25 = 2727 Delay <--- Tapian, with Brutal and 5 KA merits

Dropping a hit by increasing delay does not necessarily make you WS faster. Also, you lose that hit.

Also, Tapian is soloable, while Afflictors are not.

[Neosutra]

10% War sub DA
5% Brutal
7% KA from weapon
5% from merits
10% base KA
37%.

2.37, not 2.32.

Afflictors gets to 100 TP faster, does more DoT, and has 3% crit hit.

And really, if you're comparing 3000 mob kills to a couple hours of farming easy NMs in latheine (while getting exp and making money) and grabbing 10-11 friends to go kill Carabossa (which has the added benefit of dropping gems for people), then you've got an interesting perspective on "easier".

[Byrthnoth]

10% War sub DA
5% Brutal
7% KA from weapon
5% from merits
10% base KA
37%.

2.37, not 2.32.

Afflictors gets to 100 TP faster, does more DoT, and has 3% crit hit.

And really, if you're comparing 3000 mob kills to a couple hours of farming easy NMs in latheine (while getting exp and making money) and grabbing 10-11 friends to go kill Carabossa (which has the added benefit of dropping gems for people), then you've got an interesting perspective on "easier".

Sorry, somehow I dicked up and went 10%+15%+7%

So, what I meant was:
396*16/2.37 = 2673 Delay <-- Afflictors, with 7% KA activated, 5 KA merits and Brutal, and /WAR
361*17/2.3 = 2668 Delay <--- Tapian, with Brutal and 5 KA merits, and /WAR

Dropping a hit by increasing delay does not necessarily make you WS faster. Also, you lose that hit.

Also, Tapian is soloable, while Afflictors are not. Also, they don't take 3000 mob kills. We're talking about the Fire ones, right?

[Falaras]

STR or AGI for Detonator (Such as Flame vs Breeze Rings)

[Scritch]

Fire fangs barely even take 1000, much less 3000.

And while I don't care to math between them, a simple fact is Taipan will only get better as Magian continues. Afflictors will not.

[Neosutra]

Ah yes, was thinking of the OAT paths.

Tapians take 975 mobs.
50 skeletons
50 Gobues
50 Any mob
75 Birds
100 Lizards
200 Wamouras lol.
200 Beasts
250 Bombs.

And yes I see your delay, would be .0019% slower TP rate than Tapian >.>.

And I guess it's just a matter of perspective on ease. It's far easier for me to get some friends/LS together to farm mobs that benefit multiple people than it is for me to spend 30 hours mindlessly killing 1000 mobs for weapons that are inferior to Afflictors.

And it doesnt matter if Magians will get better. So will weapons dropped from NMs in the next update. It's a comparison of never ending shit trials to weapons you can get in an hour that are equal to better.

[Byrthnoth]

And I guess it's just a matter of perspective on ease. It's far easier for me to get some friends/LS together to farm mobs that benefit multiple people than it is for me to spend 30 hours mindlessly killing 1025 mobs for weapons that are inferior to Afflictors.

<__________________________________< Okay man, I've been pretty nice about this, but I just don't get it. Are you trolling now or something?

In 100 TP, Tapian hits 17 times with the same (or potentially more if you gain any fSTR) base damage as Afflictors. It does those 17 hits and gets that 100TP sliiiiightly faster. Also, fewer of its hits are made up of Kick Attacks, which have lower base damage.

So we're comparing the damage given by an extra swing per 100TP and 19 Attack to 3% Critical Hit rate. There is no debate here, Afflictors are a worse weapon. If you think it's easier to get and think the time tradeoff isn't worth it, that's fine. But stop saying they're better.

[Neosutra]

I think you missed the part where I clearly said they were better.

Spoiler: show

Joking aside, I stated the main reasons being:
1. Not having to do shitty magian trials.
2. Being capped or near capped on pDif and fStr already on Mnk (for a lot of things you're fighting on Mnk).
3. They look 300 times sexier than Tapians, and dont require you to do another 1000 EP kills just to maintain as a decent weapon next update.

[Onorgul]

Ok, you know, I was willing to accept the whole "capped fSTR" claim even though a huge proportion of Monks, myself included, do not have Usukane and, even as Elvaan, I cannot begin to count on being capped against any target that I actually care about. But pDIF? Maybe if you have two Bards, a Corsair, and permanent 5/5 Box Step. Or have I missed something where Abyssea NMs all have about 200 Defense?

[Neosutra]

I was following the philosophy of "If you're fighting something with high defense, bring another job".

And I'm assuming people here are intelligent enough to understand when each weapon will be superior (they are damn close at best, Tapian pulls ahead for people with weaker gear and buffs, Afflictors for people with higher end gear/buffs and lower end mobs).

Pretty sure the few people in this debate are aware of each of these situations and the margin of error between each set.

Also, on Mnk fstr:

((your STR - monster VIT)+4)/4

Upper cap of fSTR is ( weapon rank+8).

Floor( (Weapon Damage Rating +3) / 9 )

so Floor((25/9) = 2.

Upper cap on fStr is then 10.

So to cap fStr you need:

(Let X be your Strength minus the Target's Vit)

10 = (X+4)/4
10 = X/4 + 1
9 = X/4
X = 36~ more Str than the mob's vit.

So it goes back to what I said above: Afflictors are better for people with access to better gear, buffs, and/or fighting lower def mobs (stuff you bring Mnk for). Tapian is better for lower end geared people with less buffs. I assume the people in this thread can tell the difference. Perhaps I should say "Afflictors are better for my gear/buffs/use of mnk" and easier to get "for me", but do you not find that a little insulting to have to have that spelled out?

Additionally, you dont need 200 def mobs to cap pDif unless you're TPing with 0 attack gear, 0 buffs, no dia or any other def down mobs, and hitting really softly as to not disturb the mob.

[Onorgul]

So basically you're spouting nonsense and hoping that people will nod along. Kind of a shame that no one is doing so, huh?

[fredjanx]

Saying "you may miss or get a DA/KA so dropping an attack round isnt worth it" is like saying "Sam 6 hit builds aren't important because you can DA/Zanshin".

No. They're not the same thing.
And I thought that x-hit builds on dualwielders/MNK (outside of footwork) were irrelevant.

[Carraway]

Or just kill Carabossa and get a superior h2h weapon for 1/100th of the time investment, like I said above.

And I guess it's just a matter of perspective on ease. It's far easier for me to get some friends/LS together to farm mobs that benefit multiple people than it is for me to spend 30 hours mindlessly killing 1000 mobs for weapons that are inferior to Afflictors.

And it doesnt matter if Magians will get better. So will weapons dropped from NMs in the next update. It's a comparison of never ending shit trials to weapons you can get in an hour that are equal to better.

I'm not going to discuss the math, but Afflictors vs fire Taipan Fangs is not a clear-cut decision even when it comes to ease of acquisition. It is possible, perhaps even probable, that you would finish a key item set from a farming run, but a good farming run lasts for a minimum of three hours, usually more in the neighborhood of five or six. Otherwise, you're looking at a shitty key item drop rate from the low-tier NMs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going for fire Taipan Fangs instead of Afflictors, especially considering that the only way I could see getting Afflictors in an hour of total time investment is if you join an LS or shout group that already has the pop items for Carabosse and is willing to let Afflictors go for free.