What's Better?

[Neosutra]

The difference between Afflictors and Destroyers is bigger than the difference between Tapian and Afflictors. Hardly trash.

But either way:

Fredjanx, do you have any experience with Skoll (MMM Gnole)? I've read the MMM thread, but wanted to get an idea on drop rates and how long it took to get to that T3 and such.

[Motenten]

Afflictors    :  123.730
Destroyers    :  125.800
Taipan (Fire) :  133.990

If you think a full Usukane build for hume is an unfair comparison, define a setup you think they'll win in and I'll run the numbers.

[Sobie]

Hope this hasn't been posted somewhere else:

OAT or OA2-3 Polearm for DRG?

[Nameless]

OAT by a lot.

[Maguile]

Absolution (DMG 105, delay 513, str+6, att+20) or Reckoning (DMG 109, delay 528.)?

[Byrthnoth]

Absolution is better for a simple 6-hit /SAM, Reckoning doesn't require killing Flans. Ideally you'd get the STP Scythe (/NIN 6-hit and /SAM 5-hit) and STR Absolution (/SAM 6-hit).

[Maguile]

Thats what I thought, but wouldnt using full perle with absolution bring it closer to reckoning since youd have to use homamx3/turban/askar or aurum?

[Mad Friar Avelyn]

In terms of a MDT-/MDB macro-in set for PLD, what would be better: Avalon Breastplate with Coral+1 for MDT-, Avalon Breastplate with Iron Ram for MDB, or just full Iron Ram?

The Avalon and Coral+1 would bring me to the 25% MDT- "cap" from gear, assuming 25% from Shell V bringing me to the 50% cap, with the rest of the accessories (HQ rings and earrings), but the Iron Ram would provide more MDB than MDT overall.

This is all assuming that items such as Aegis, Valhalla Breastplate and Valhalla helm are unavailable to me at the given time.

[Byrthnoth]

Thats what I thought, but wouldnt using full perle with absolution bring it closer to reckoning since youd have to use homamx3/turban/askar or aurum?

I think I understand what you're saying, and yes. Some people say that a 5-hit Reckoning is still worse than a 6-hit Absolution.

[Neosutra]

A few things about the Tapian vs Afflictors debate (I'd like to continue the debate if people can do so calmly, as I've seen several pieces of misinformation.

1. In the "time to 100 tp" calculation done earlier, Byrthnoth used the following formula to determine TP time:

396*16/2.37 = 2731 Delay <-- Afflictors, with 7% KA activated, 5 KA merits and Brutal
361*17/2.32 = 2727 Delay <--- Tapian, with Brutal and 5 KA merits

However, this isnt correct. Yes it takes one extra hit to get to 100 with Tapian, but you have to wait the full attack round for that hit to land, so the actual total delay time to 100 (slightly over 100 tp) for tapian is:

361*18/2.32 = 2800.

So as I said before: Tapians get's TP slower than Afflictors.

2. Afflictors will net you a WS frequency increase of 2.5%. Byrthnoth was correct however to point out that the DoT to 100 tp would be slightly less with Afflictors however, due to kick attacks having less base damage than punches.

Afflictors will pull slightly ahead of Tapians at high Pdif and fStr as I've said, but let's take a look at exactly where those values come:

I plotted your pDif with a range of enemy defense from 200 to 800.

I assumed 600 attack (Red curry, cor roll only), pretty standard, but you can shift the plot by cor roll attack bonus if you want to view no buffs.

I showed the pDif shifts for various debuffs depending what you have.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...tra/Pdif-1.jpg

edit: Just realized I labeled the legend wrong, it' should be reversed in order (more debuffs = higher pdif)

Note that the circle represents "Pretty much all old content and areas where you want to bring Mnk instead of another DD". So ya, Afflictors only shine in places where well, Mnk shines.

As you can see, Afflictors takes over in damage when you start getting more debuffs/buffs, and pretty much all older content. As I already stated, Tapian will win on higher end newer mobs and places where you dont have many buffs/gear/debuffs.

3. Additionally, the argument against fStr not being capped:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...sutra/fStr.jpg

Hume base str was 63 + 5 merits 37 str in gear and 8 via food, netting 108 str.

You can see there based on mob Vit where Tapian's str component will have minimal effect.

4. Additionally, the lolAlla link posted here doesnt take into account capped pDif (he does take into account capped fStr), nor does he take into account +7KA from Afflictors. It's a poorly done comparison meant to woo the allakazham members and isnt really something I'd reference here.

But as I said before, I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I actually appreciate the debate. I'm glad Fred pointed out Lunaris claws, as I'd forgot about them and will be working towards those pretty hard. However claims that "Afflictors are trash" when they are equal/better than Tapian in all old content and slightly worse in order content is just founded in ignorance.

[Byrthnoth]

1. In the "time to 100 tp" calculation done earlier, Byrthnoth used the following formula to determine TP time:

396*16/2.37 = 2731 Delay <-- Afflictors, with 7% KA activated, 5 KA merits and Brutal
361*17/2.32 = 2727 Delay <--- Tapian, with Brutal and 5 KA merits

However, this isnt correct. Yes it takes one extra hit to get to 100 with Tapian, but you have to wait the full attack round for that hit to land, so the actual total delay time to 100 (slightly over 100 tp) for tapian is:

361*18/2.32 = 2800.

So as I said before: Tapians get's TP slower than Afflictors.

You're wrong. Double Attacks, Kick Attacks, Missing, plenty of ways to end up with an odd number of hits after X attack rounds. The way that I did it is the correct way. If you accounted for all of those possibilities, it would come out to approximately my calculation.

Also, did you account for WS TP return when you calculated your "X-hits to 100TP?"

2) Who eats Red Curry on Monk? I thought Pizza was standard.


Afflictors are simply not the best obtainable weapon for Monk. If you're satisfied with them that's cool, but you could be satisfied with Destroyers too.

PPS. I pointed out Lunaris claws first.

[Skeelo]

BG loves their charts.

[Neosutra]

You're wrong. Double Attacks, Kick Attacks, Missing, plenty of ways to end up with an odd number of hits after X attack rounds. The way that I did it is the correct way. If you accounted for all of those possibilities, it would come out to approximately my calculation.

Also, did you account for WS TP return when you calculated your "X-hits to 100TP?"

2) Who eats Red Curry on Monk? I thought Pizza was standard.


Afflictors are simply not the best obtainable weapon for Monk. If you're satisfied with them that's cool, but you could be satisfied with Destroyers too.

PPS. I pointed out Lunaris claws first.

1. You account for your extra odd attack rounds in your calculation via the .37 and .32 added to the 1 divisor. That affects both equally. Poor argument.

2. No I didnt account for TP return from each, but that would favor Afflictors.

3. Who eats pizza when acc is capped in 100% of old content and 90% of newer content (anything you'd bring mnk too)?

And we both know Lunaris claws win. I'm more pointing out that your "You're trolling for saying Afflictors are better than Tapians" comment was illfounded, and Ornogul's Allakazham comment of "destroyers beats Afflictors" was based in no fact what so ever.

So other than Afflictors beating Tapian in just about every event that you'd take Mnk, you're right. And other than Destroyers -never- beating Afflictors, Ornogul's right. Oh woops, that makes you both wrong, damn!

[Byrthnoth]

1) That directly contradicts your decision to add a hit to 100TP to Tapian. If hits/DAs/Kick attacks affect both equally, then there's no reason to arbitrarily add a hit to Tapian, the most accurate thing you can hope to do is to take it as the odd number and divide by the hits/round like I did. Monk has to hit enough times to reach 100TP that adding all these possibilities will closely approximate that number anyway.

2) How? Does it drop another hit? You need to account for that.

3) I figured we were talking about Abyssea. I didn't optimize my gearsets for Nyzul Isle before, and I don't optimize my gearsets for City Dynamis now.

[Neosutra]

1) That directly contradicts your decision to add a hit to 100TP to Tapian. If hits/DAs/Kick attacks affect both equally, then there's no reason to arbitrarily add a hit to Tapian, the most accurate thing you can hope to do is to take it as the odd number and divide by the hits/round like I did. Monk has to hit enough times to reach 100TP that adding all these possibilities will closely approximate that number anyway.

2) How? Does it drop another hit? You need to account for that.

3) I figured we were talking about Abyssea. I didn't optimize my gearsets for Nyzul Isle before, and I don't optimize my gearsets for City Dynamis now.

1. Not really, you have to account for TP overflow, so measuring full attack rounds to 100 is a bit more fair.

2. The tp return from WS on either weapon wont drop a hit for either.

3. I've already pointed out where they shine, saying "but but newer content they lose" is irrelevant as I agree with you. I even made a pretty chart to show exactly when/where they win/lose.

It's like this:

Byrthnoth: "Tapian win on harder mobs"
Neo: "Ya, Tapian win on harder mobs"
Byrthnoth: "OMG NEO, I'M TELLING YOU TAPIAN WINS ON HARDER MOBS!"
Neo: "Ya.. I know..that's what I said".

And I dont know about you, but I'm pretty sure people still do Dynamis and other older events. Abyssea rocks, but it's not the only event, and I'm more likely to take Mnk to older events (where it fucking -destroys- everything) than I am to an event where I'm fighting a lot of high defense mobs.

I'm not saying "afflictors win all the time, tapians are trash", I'm just pointing out where they win and lose, and showing blanket statements (like calling me a troll for stating the -facts- about pDif and fStr) are not founded in reality.

[Onorgul]

Who cares about old content? Well, I suppose it depends on what one defines as "old content." Perle has made things like Adaman Hauberk obsolete, much to people's chagrin, Magians have thrown Ridill to the dogs, but Usukane Haramaki retains its utility even as full Usukane clings to a limbo condition.

This whole "permanently capped pDIF" thing and your really sketchy math do not convince me. It's nice that you're desperate to rely on ad hominem because Motenten (Kinematics) posted to Allakhazam instead of BG. It proves how weak your argument really is and that you're wholly aware of it.

[Neosutra]

I guess you can just fall back on insult when you cant argue against any of the math/charts/facts presented. (hint: I even stated what was wrong with Kinematics math)

At least Byrthnoth knows what the hell he's talking about, we just disagree on a few things. The only thing you've added to this debate is a link to alla (that was shown to be in error) and a blanket incorrect statement that "destroyers beat afflictors". Go away.

[Byrthnoth]

1. Not really, you have to account for TP overflow, so measuring full attack rounds to 100 is a bit more fair.

2. The tp return from WS on either weapon wont drop a hit for either.

3. I've already pointed out where they shine, saying "but but newer content they lose" is irrelevant as I agree with you. I even made a pretty chart to show exactly when/where they win/lose.

It's like this:

Byrthnoth: "Tapian win on harder mobs"
Neo: "Ya, Tapian win on harder mobs"
Byrthnoth: "OMG NEO, I'M TELLING YOU TAPIAN WINS ON HARDER MOBS!"
Neo: "Ya.. I know..that's what I said".

And I dont know about you, but I'm pretty sure people still do Dynamis and other older events. Abyssea rocks, but it's not the only event, and I'm more likely to take Mnk to older events (where it fucking -destroys- everything) than I am to an event where I'm fighting a lot of high defense mobs.

I'm not saying "afflictors win all the time, tapians are trash", I'm just pointing out where they win and lose, and showing blanket statements (like calling me a troll for stating the -facts- about pDif and fStr) are not founded in reality.

Tapian: D60, 361 Delay, 15% kick rate, 5% DA rate, capped fSTR
((60+10)*1.05*2+(35+8 )*.15)*60/361 = 25.5 DPS

Afflictors: D60, 396 Delay, 22% kick rate, 5% DA rate, capped fSTR
((60+10)*1.05*2+(35+8 )*.22)*60/396 = 23.7 DPS

If, in theory, they get TP at the same rate, then you'd be relying on 3% Crit rate (at capped pDIF supposedly, so the value of a critical hit is minimized) to make up for the remaining difference in DPS. You'll notice I even gave your kicks fSTR, which increases their value.

If you don't believe they get TP at the same rate, you'd be right because Tapians get TP very slightly faster.

Edit: There's nothing I can do to convince you, and frankly it doesn't matter to me because you aren't even on my server so my odds of interaction with you in game are nil. You're a lost cause on this, and I'll let someone else have a crack at you if they feel like it.

[Onorgul]

(that was shown to be in error)

When and where? Your repeated assertions that the models are wrong do not make them so. Actually, you know, proving where the error is would certainly help. You are convinced that pDIF is capped in situations that anyone actually gives a damn about and when presented with the reality that this doesn't happen, you say stupid things like, "I wouldn't bring Monk to that situation." But, you know, I'll just go with Byrthnoth on this.

By the way, disagreeing with you isn't remotely the same as insulting you. You'll know when I'm insulting you. I think you're terribly misguided or deliberately ignoring arguments in the name of sloth or time constraints, but I haven't been insulting you.

[Neosutra]

Tapian: D60, 361 Delay, 15% kick rate, 5% DA rate, capped fSTR
((60+10)*1.05*2+(35+8 )*.15)*60/361 = 25.5 DPS

Afflictors: D60, 396 Delay, 22% kick rate, 5% DA rate, capped fSTR
((60+10)*1.05*2+(35+8 )*.22)*60/396 = 23.7 DPS

If, in theory, they get TP at the same rate, then you'd be relying on 3% Crit rate (at capped pDIF supposedly, so the value of a critical hit is minimized) to make up for the remaining difference in DPS. You'll notice I even gave your kicks fSTR, which increases their value.

If you don't believe they get TP at the same rate, you'd be right because Tapians get TP very slightly faster.

Edit: There's nothing I can do to convince you, and frankly it doesn't matter to me because you aren't even on my server so my odds of interaction with you in game are nil. You're a lost cause on this, and I'll let someone else have a crack at you if they feel like it.

Ah thanx for working that out. Looks like they'd be pretty close or equal even on older content then once you factor in 3% crit hit.

As for TP rate:

You have a 15% chance of an extra attack round every punch (16 punches to 100) from DA. You have a 22% chance of an extra attack round from KA for those 8 attack rounds.

.15*16 = 2.4 extra punches every TP phase.

.22*8 = 1.76 extra attacks (kicks) every TP phase.

You have a 21% chance of getting both extra punches by the end of your 14th punch, saving a full attack round to 100.

You have a 15.4% chance of getting that extra kick within the first 7 attack rounds.

You have a 42% chance of getting at least one punch within the first 7 attack rounds.

That's a 57.4% chance that DA/KA will save you a complete attack round to 100 with Afflictors. 42.6% chance of TP bleed over.

I'd still say you're stretching it by calling Tapian faster than Afflictors, though from the DPS/Crit hit/extra attack calculations, they seem to be pretty close to equal on older content and higher pDif situations. (Making Tapians superior over all).

When and where? Your repeated assertions that the models are wrong do not make them so.

Reread the thread. Kinematics left off KA+ and pDif comparisons. He only factored in capped fStr. And again, cut the insults. You've offered NO comparisons here besides a link and insults. I've pointed out the error in your link. You simply respond with "you're wrong". Contribute to the thread, or go away. You're embarrassing yourself.