What's Better?

[Akyrey90]

Got few days ago pup to 75+,now i'm trying to figure out what trials i should do and what augments get on my ACP body. idm all the lolpup stuff,so dont do that plz!
for ACP i was thinking pet macc and MAB,not sure about other augment,pet acc or atk they both seem cool!
For hands i've started h2h trial,was thinking of doing the pet macc h2h,and maybe another pair with pet atk since i'd never finish the pet acc once (thx Soulflayers! )!Thx in advance for this!

[Kyte]

What other gear do you have for PUP at the moment? (relevant info when choosing ACP body)

For h2h, I would do a pair of STR claws for when not using BLM puppet, and a pair of MAB claws for when you are.

[Fiarlia]

Witch Sash, Searing Sash or Cognition Belt?

I know I should be getting rid of the Witch's Sash, Searing should give the same (ish) Macc for dark based, and I'll still have Penitent's for MND since I use it as part of my Sorc trigger set anyway.

Just not sure whether to go for Searing or Cognition.

[Akyrey90]

What other gear do you have for PUP at the moment? (relevant info when choosing ACP body)

For h2h, I would do a pair of STR claws for when not using BLM puppet, and a pair of MAB claws for when you are.

atm as pet stats i have only af2.i dont want to touch my AMK hat and ASA legs sice i use them for whm.i want to try to augment some stuff to get like earrings with pet mab i guess.thx for the h2h tips!i'ma start it right away!

[Kyte]

I would go 10 accuracy and pet MAB for the body if I were choosing just for PUP. If you need pet accuracy, you can just use AF2.

[FailureMidgard]

More looking for someone to doublecheck my math here than anything. Futsuno(5hit) vs Masamune(6hit):


Futsuno: 84dmg, 480delay, +8dex, +8str(WS only)
Masamune: 97dmg, 450 delay
Assuming fSTR of ~10 on TP, 17 on WS for Futsuno, 18 on WS for Masamune. 90 WSC. And assuming the Dex>Acc gets used.
Baseline: 84dmg, 480delay 6hit.

TP phase damage:
Masamune: +13/(84+10) = +13.83% TP
Masamune: +30/480 = +6.25% TP
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% TP
Total: Masamune by 13.83+6.25-3.26 = 16.82%

WS damage:
Masamune: +30/480 = +6.25% WS rate.
Futsuno: +25% WS rate.
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% WS rate.
Masamune: +14/(84+17+90) = +7.33% WS.
Futsuno: +5/(84+17+90) = +2.62% WS.
Total: Futsuno by 25+3.26+2.62-7.33-6.25 = 17.3%.

So Futsuno does ~17% more WS dmg than Masamune, and Masamune does ~17% more TP dmg than Futsuno (giving the benefit of the doubt at the end here to Masamune). Unless something has changed hugely without a Hagun (I don't think it is?), WS dmg should always be a larger portion than TP damage, making Futsuno flat out better than Masamune?
Also, before it's brought up, I left out meditate because I'm lazy - Masamune gets higher WS dmg, but Futsuno should have meditate ticks line up better and make more efficient use of the TP, so I don't think Masamune actually has an advantage here.

So ya, just like having shit double checked incase I missed something.

[mdkuser]

More looking for someone to doublecheck my math here than anything. Futsuno(5hit) vs Masamune(6hit):


Futsuno: 84dmg, 480delay, +8dex, +8str(WS only)
Masamune: 97dmg, 450 delay
Assuming fSTR of ~10 on TP, 17 on WS for Futsuno, 18 on WS for Masamune. 90 WSC. And assuming the Dex>Acc gets used.
Baseline: 84dmg, 480delay 6hit.

TP phase damage:
Masamune: +13/(84+10) = +13.83% TP
Masamune: +30/480 = +6.25% TP
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% TP
Total: Masamune by 13.83+6.25-3.26 = 16.82%

WS damage:
Masamune: +30/450 = +6.25% WS rate.
Futsuno: +25% WS rate.
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% WS rate.
Masamune: +14/(84+17+90) = +7.33% WS.
Futsuno: +5/(84+17+90) = +2.62% WS.
Total: Futsuno by 25+3.26+2.62-7.33-6.25 = 17.3%.

So Futsuno does ~17% more WS dmg than Masamune, and Masamune does ~17% more TP dmg than Futsuno (giving the benefit of the doubt at the end here to Masamune). Unless something has changed hugely without a Hagun (I don't think it is?), WS dmg should always be a larger portion than TP damage, making Futsuno flat out better than Masamune?
Also, before it's brought up, I left out meditate because I'm lazy - Masamune gets higher WS dmg, but Futsuno should have meditate ticks line up better and make more efficient use of the TP, so I don't think Masamune actually has an advantage here.

So ya, just like having shit double checked incase I missed something.

TL;DR: masamune is delay 437.

what does the "3/92" stand for? also it's multuplicative so it should be

1.1383*1.0625/1.0326=+17.12% for the first TP calculations, and similarily for WS.

Futsuno isn't +25% WS rate because both weapons do not have the same delay. Fitsuno takes 4*480 delay units and Masamune 5*437 delay units. Im assuming here no DA trait, no JA delay, blabla. so Futsuno is 5*437/(4*480)=+13.8% WS freq. Also I'm not so familiar with 80 gear from last update, but i'm pretty sure 437 delay still need usukane feet to 6 hit(-1% haste).

Yea ok, that's your mistake, masamune is delay 437. When I mathed futsuno a few month ago it was the best non relic GK but "only" 7-8% above hagun, when a radennotachi ( or whatever the DA GK was) was +5%, and augmented relic +20-30%. I think the basic masamune was mathed to be at least 10-15% above hagun?

[EjinCaitsith]

Also I'm not so familiar with 80 gear from last update, but i'm pretty sure 437 delay still need usukane feet to 6 hit(-1% haste).

With 437 Delay weapon all you need aside from usu bod/rajas/brutal is 6 more Stp. Which the new Tactical Mantle(+6) would cover, allowing the extra 1% haste. Or you can use the new Hoard Ring(+4) and White Tathlum(+2) which is far less loss stat wise.

But is -32 attack -4 str or -12 str -4 dex -3 attack and -1 move speed worth it. Looks like it might be.

[EjinCaitsith]

Hell, i guess you can just use the new Unkai Nodowa(3), Attila's Earring(1) and White Tathlum(2) for the 6 needed too. Only losing 6 str, 8 atk and 12 GK skill but gaining 5 acc. It's even possible to Augment the earring with +str(2 max?) to lessen str loss even more.

Edit: Sorry if it was unclear but i was using my own Amano TP sets for comparing, which uses Justice/Thew/Bushi for slots mentioned.

[FailureMidgard]

TL;DR: masamune is delay 437.

Ah shit. That also implies haste loss, however.

what does the "3/92" stand for? also it's multuplicative so it should be

8dex=6acc=3% hit rate, assuming 92% base hit rate, as I mentioned at the top, assuming it can be used. I also ignored the crit aspect, but that should be at least 1% crit for a Sam in Byakkos.
Also, I'm aware it should be multiplied, I was just lazy and ended up rounding up for Masamune and down for Futsuno at the end. I'm not sure why I missed the delay moving to 437 on the last upgrade...I did a comparison to the highest base dmg before Masamune first, and found Futsuno seemed to be leaps and bounds ahead, so I just used Amano-1 as base dmg, and the same delay that the previous weapon had :/

Futsuno isn't +25% WS rate because both weapons do not have the same delay. Fitsuno takes 4*480 delay units and Masamune 5*437 delay units. Im assuming here no DA trait, no JA delay, blabla. so Futsuno is 5*437/(4*480)=+13.8% WS freq. Also I'm not so familiar with 80 gear from last update, but i'm pretty sure 437 delay still need usukane feet to 6 hit(-1% haste).

Masamune: +30/480 = +6.25% WS rate.
That was the delay, and was subtracted off

Yea ok, that's your mistake, masamune is delay 437. When I mathed futsuno a few month ago it was the best non relic GK but "only" 7-8% above hagun, when a radennotachi ( or whatever the DA GK was) was +5%, and augmented relic +20-30%. I think the basic masamune was mathed to be at least 10-15% above hagun?

Futsuno: 84dmg, 480delay, +8dex, +8str(WS only)
Masamune: 97dmg, 437 delay
Assuming fSTR of ~10 on TP, 17 on WS for Futsuno, 18 on WS for Masamune. 90 WSC. And assuming the Dex>Acc gets used.
Baseline: 84dmg, 480delay 6hit.

TP phase damage:
Masamune: +13/(84+10) = +13.83% TP
Masamune: -47delay = +9.89% TP
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% TP
Total: Masamune by 1.1383*1.0625*(1-.0326) = 1.1700 = 17%

WS damage:
Futsuno: 5hit+delay = +13.8% WS rate
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% WS rate.
Masamune: +14/(84+17+90) = +7.33% WS.
Futsuno: +5/(84+17+90) = +2.62% WS.
Total: Futsuno by 1.138*1.0326*(1+.0262-.0733) = 1.1198 = 11.98%

I dislike the method for 5hit vs 6hit, I was trying to keep it more modular and have them separate (I had +25% for Futsuno, but +X% with wrong delay for Masamune), but I didn't double check the numbers, and I'm not seeing a way to get the same # keeping them separate, so whatever.

So anyway, assuming same gear (Really though, that's giving the benefit of the doubt to Masamune, since it either needs to sacrifice haste or attk/str/etc and I ignored the crit), Masamune has +17% TP dmg, Futsuno has +12% WS dmg. Again, I don't feel like dealing with meditate, but I think they are "close" due to Futsuno lining up swings with meditate ticks, and Masamune potentially wasting a lot of the TP.

.17*x = .12*(1-x)
.17x = .12 - .12x
.25x = .12
x = .12/.25 = 48%. You need to have 48% of your damage sans meditate to be TP phase damage for Masamune to beat Futsuno, even with these corrected calculations. That still sounds unlikely to me, putting Futsuno ahead of Masamune? I'm just really attempting to gauge the usefulness of Futsuno, but atm it seems to me like it's pretty damn nice, saves a ton of time fucking with Magians, saves the effort of having to get/buy Carabosse Gems, and is still slightly better.
Also, in another thread we speculated paying 1mil per for Carabosse Gems, so Futsuno should still be able to fetch 50m+ (not even counting rarity factor)?

Edit:
I've ignored comparisons between Masamune and other weapons for the most part, and don't feel like doing math that's been done 20x before, or digging around a lot...was another weapon (OAT, something 5hit) assumed to be better?
Also, the biggest problem I see with Futsuno atm is it seems unlikely to manage a 4hit with Sam roll, whereas it's actually pretty easy to get a 437 to a 5hit with Sam roll, though admittedly I haven't done any math on Futsuno 4hit in that situation.

[Darkmagi]

I'm pretty sure base Masamune is pretty low on the hierarchy of new SAM GKs. 5hits being easily workable for all the 464 delay GKs (OaT, 92dmg/5DA, STP GK) should pull them ahead (without manamune having 5hit from sam roll at the very least).
Edit: Now, what's better: 5hit fully upgraded OaT or DMG/DA? Er Add in Scathacha too I suppose. No idea where that fits in.

[CDF]

Futsuno: 84dmg, 480delay, +8dex, +8str(WS only)
Masamune: 97dmg, 437 delay
Assuming fSTR of ~10 on TP, 17 on WS for Futsuno, 18 on WS for Masamune. 90 WSC. And assuming the Dex>Acc gets used.
Baseline: 84dmg, 480delay 6hit.

TP phase damage:
Masamune: +13/(84+10) = +13.83% TP
Masamune: -47delay = +9.89% TP
Futsuno: +3/92 = +3.26% TP
Total: Masamune by 1.1383*1.0625*(1-.0326) = 1.1700 = 17%

Masamune's TP-phase damage will be higher than 17% on a per weapon skill basis since Futsuno is treated as a nominal 5-hit and Masamune a nominal 6-hit. The above treats the two as they both will be doing the same number of hits per weapon skill.

[Rehn]

How good (or bad) of a choice is the sTP uzura katana? Currently rolling with DMG mozu and soon to be OAT isatu. I also tend to use ninja chainmail + usu feet if that changes anything, or sometimes usu body if acc is an issue.

[FailureMidgard]

Masamune's TP-phase damage will be higher than 17% on a per weapon skill basis since Futsuno is treated as a nominal 5-hit and Masamune a nominal 6-hit. The above treats the two as they both will be doing the same number of hits per weapon skill.

Huh, it hit 13.83% harder. Futsuno's accuracy allows it to hit 3.26% more often. And I added in the delay difference in the fact that Masamune swings 9.89% faster. I never made the claim that Masamune's TP-phase damage will be 17% on a per WS basis. I made the claim that over an extended period of time swinging, Masamune's TP-phase (white) damage will be 17% higher on the parser.

[CDF]

I didn't see that you didn't change 1.0625 to 1.09839, so my knee-jerk reaction was wrong (but I meant per WS use as in per unit time anyway so the distinction about "per WS" is irrelevant), so the difference is closer to 21%.

Also considering intrinsic WS delay, the difference in WS frequency will be less (and the difference is further eroded given WS first-hit accuracy, whatever the WS used). And along with those previous two factors that favor Masamune, it is quite possible for the percent of total damage from Masamune TP phase to be in the upper 40s (%) since Masamune has both higher base damage and one more hit required to get 100 TP. (It can be shown 6-hit Masamune is better than Futsuno as TP:WS ratio is not some invariant thing.)

This comparison is not invariant to attack rating where Y/G/K is concerned, but a relatively low attack is required for Futsuno to be better.

Meditate is a minor factor especially given typical quantities of haste.

[Buffy]

Witch Sash, Searing Sash or Cognition Belt?

I know I should be getting rid of the Witch's Sash, Searing should give the same (ish) Macc for dark based, and I'll still have Penitent's for MND since I use it as part of my Sorc trigger set anyway.

Just not sure whether to go for Searing or Cognition.

Cognition is arguably the same magic acc as witch sash, and possibly more damage then searing depending on what you're casting, other gear, etc etc etc.

The long answer is to get both and mix and match depending on situation - however since SE appears determined to nuke every piece of old gear it seems likely that we will see considerably better belts over the next 2 updates. Keeping that in mind:

The short answer is to go with cognition as it will keep up with either witch or searing in any sort of resist-y type situation. A brief play with some math concludes that the difference between searing and cognition in full-out nuking situations is about 20ish damage on tier 5, which in turn depends on other gear available to you.

[FailureMidgard]

I didn't see that you didn't change 1.0625 to 1.09839, so my knee-jerk reaction was wrong (but I meant per WS use as in per unit time anyway so the distinction about "per WS" is irrelevant), so the difference is closer to 21%.

Ya, as I first said, didn't realize the 437delay on Masamune. And I think you're ignoring the 8dex, which I was assuming could be used, when you say 21%.

Also considering intrinsic WS delay, the difference in WS frequency will be less (and the difference is further eroded given WS first-hit accuracy, whatever the WS used). And along with those previous two factors that favor Masamune, it is quite possible for the percent of total damage from Masamune TP phase to be in the upper 40s (%) since Masamune has both higher base damage and one more hit required to get 100 TP. (It can be shown 6-hit Masamune is better than Futsuno as TP:WS ratio is not some invariant thing.)

The split I was interested in would be a 480delay 84dmg 6hit, which is the baseline I'm using. You can't use a Masamune split or a Futsuno split to look at the numbers I provided.

This comparison is not invariant to attack rating where Y/G/K is concerned, but a relatively low attack is required for Futsuno to be better.

Huh? First off, the first half of that statement is wrong...it is invariant to attack rating where Y/G/K are concerned...overall, however, yes, attack value will change the TP/WS split, and thus it can vary a bit. (Double negative is annoying) It seems unlikely to me, however, that you will have the attack on new/etc content to alter it to the point that Masamune is significantly better that Futsuno, if at all. I'm interested in seeing your comparison of the 2 at various attack values, however (and I agree with attack cap in perhaps dyna and ein in a proper party, but disagree with other situtations). Also, Futsuno has more freedom in gear (Can Use Dusk+1 over Usu feet say).

Meditate is a minor factor especially given typical quantities of haste.

Which is why I left it out.

[CDF]

Ya, as I first said, didn't realize the 437delay on Masamune. And I think you're ignoring the 8dex, which I was assuming could be used, when you say 21%.

1.0989 comes from the difference in delay ("Masamune swings 9.89% faster" - you), and you already accounted for a hit rate difference with your (1-.0326) term. 1.1383*1.0989*(1-.0326) = 1.210099, or to be more correct, 1.1383*1.0989*.92/.95 = 1.211376.

The split I was interested in would be a 480delay 84dmg 6hit, which is the baseline I'm using. You can't use a Masamune split or a Futsuno split to look at the numbers I provided.

A split for either one follows from all the conditions you stated (and won't be the same), so not sure where you are even invoking a certain split for 480delay 84dmg 6hit.

Huh? First off, the first half of that statement is wrong...it is invariant to attack rating where Y/G/K are concerned...overall, however, yes, attack value will change the TP/WS split, and thus it can vary a bit. (Double negative is annoying) It seems unlikely to me, however, that you will have the attack on new/etc content to alter it to the point that Masamune is significantly better that Futsuno, if at all.

As you just said, attack rating will alter the TP:WS ratio, so the relative difference (percent difference) does vary with attack given Y/G/K. It not that it potentially varies (given Y/G/K). It actually does (unless you hit the (c)ratio ceiling or it approaches 0).

I'm interested in seeing your comparison of the 2 at various attack values, however (and I agree with attack cap in perhaps dyna and ein in a proper party, but disagree with other situtations). Also, Futsuno has more freedom in gear (Can Use Dusk+1 over Usu feet say).

I might upload something, but let's revisit what proportion of total damage in the TP phase Masamune has to have for it to be equivalent to Futsuno (reminding ourselves that its dependent on the weapon itself and other conditions such as WS used, WSC, etc.).

Given that Masamune is 17% better in the TP phase (just using your value even though it seems it should be closer to 21% based on what you stipulated) and Futsuno is 11.98% better, the correct identification of the TP:WS ratio of Masamune where it and Futsuno are equivalent follows from this arithmetic (notation I hope is self-explanatory, as there seems not to be any bb code for subscripts):

Equivalence: M_TP + M_WS = F_TP + F_WS (ok as there is no WS delay to consider; all terms have units damage per unit time)

Constraints:

M_TP / F_TP = 1.17

M_WS / F_WS = 1/1.189

Then,

M_TP + M_WS = (1/1.17) M_TP + 1.189 M_WS

M_WS = .7688 M_TP

so M_TP:M_WS = 0.4346:0.5654.

Masamune's TP-phase damage being around 43.46% of its total damage, not that implausible, especially if forced into a situation where Meditate is allowed to figure prominently (but you don't want to use Hagun for whatever reason). And it can be shown that one or the other is better depending on TP-phase (average) pDIF varying (assuming average pDIF for the likes of Gekko is practically independent of attack rating). And since players aren't machines, maximum efficiency in spamming WS is impossible.

[mdkuser]

6 hit standard lv 75 great katanas with no special property ( not hagun) have between 40% and 45% melee damage, assuming full time on the mob, on non HNMs ( example onimaru, not counting hidden bonus). if Onimaru has 43% Melee damage, I remember finding hagun would have ~37% and pachipachio ~35% ( so futsuno should be around that).

[Kidnoftle]

What gear are you thinking of using to 5hit OATdmg+?

Even with usu feet and body, white tath, Unkai Nodowa, rajas, and brutal I come up short by quite a bit. Are you assuming sam roll or carbonara? .-.

Am confus.