What's Better?

[Byrthnoth]

He says one month because Nin will probably get another DW at 85.
But well, Ninja is far from being trash.

I disagree. Ninja is quite trash. Dancer has higher DPS, does Piercing damage, gets TP faster, and can Waltz/Samba. Ninja needs a 10% Dual wield trait at 85 or 90 in order to catch up to a healer.

[FailureMidgard]

I don't know what other jobs your talking about, but with the recent bumps, I retired my war and sam in favour of mnk with the DMG90 soboro feets. It's not even a contest anymore. More hp, more ways to avoid damage, more damage, perfect counter. No reason for me to come on sam anymore at all.

Wat. Perfect counter is a weak version of Seigan/3rd eye. I agree monk got some nice boosts this update, but I think you're stretching it a tad.

Less than 2 minutes to kill LBC with monk/wars says hi.

Did that at 75...

He says one month because Nin will probably get another DW at 85.
But well, Ninja is far from being trash.

I mean, a ninja can perform well, for a ninja. Can definitely outparse people on other jobs, but same player on another job with similar gear will basically always parse higher...and there has to be more than a single DW trait to pull nin up to other DDs...

[Neosutra]

Indeed, doesn't sound bad.
Which are these ways to avoid damage besides perfect counter ?

Counterstance, Perfect Counter, Capped Haste, Significantly higher DPS than Nin, Penance, Chakra, Significantly higher DPS than Nin, 20% more HP, Significantly higher DPS than Nin, OA3 shoes (for as long as that lasts).

If you have Mnk, there is no reason to ever bring Nin to salvage (or any event). And I'd have to echo, Nin will need a lot more than another DW to get back it's edge.

[Oulanbator]

Mnk 80 with gimp weapon Vs Nin 80 with good weapons seems a good enough reason to me (that's actually what I asked in my first post, and got an answer. If you disagree with Pathwriter, feel free to say it).

Your "significantly higher dps" only works with OA3+Shoes when doing normal damage (aka no counterstance).
Counterstance sure boosts damage, but it doesn't makes Mnk better than Nin, it makes it better than every job besides war (cause they have their own counterstance). On a side note, everyone will have counterstance at 90.

Yet, I don't see anything new besides perfect dodge in what you describe, which was my question.

[Dooom]

On a side note, everyone will have counterstance at 90.

Everyone is going to DD/mnk? Buh? And Retaliation isn't counterstance, you still get hit on warrior, but monk doesn't.

Man it up and get proper monk weapons if you care about monk at all. If you don't, then just trash it and play your sub-par jobs because you enjoy them more. I used to be all "yay ninja woo I can compete with other DD!". Then I met DD who didn't suck, put some time in on my other melees, and realised that ninja is so far behind it's sad.

On a related note, multi-hit claws and footwork and Poise Shoes is the most fun I have ever had in ffxi after five years.

[Neosutra]

Mnk 80 with gimp weapon Vs Nin 80 with good weapons seems a good enough reason to me (that's actually what I asked in my first post, and got an answer. If you disagree with Pathwriter, feel free to say it).

Your "significantly higher dps" only works with OA3+Shoes when doing normal damage (aka no counterstance).
Counterstance sure boosts damage, but it doesn't makes Mnk better than Nin, it makes it better than every job besides war (cause they have their own counterstance). On a side note, everyone will have counterstance at 90.

Yet, I don't see anything new besides perfect dodge in what you describe, which was my question.

Mnk with AH weapon and no footwork OA3 > Significantly higher DPS than Nin.

Mnk with OA3 + footwork = Nin not even in the same playing field.

[Tambor]

Really hate how you can only pick one of this path to do so I'm looking for some help choosing between these. Sword/Dagger 8/8

For BLU-OAT,OA2-3 or DA Khanda to go with STR/DEX Shamshir

For DNC (mainly) and THF-OAT or OA2-3 Parazonium to be paired with Auric/DEX Kila/Joyeuse.

[Onorgul]

Mnk 80 with gimp weapon Vs Nin 80 with good weapons seems a good enough reason to me (that's actually what I asked in my first post, and got an answer. If you disagree with Pathwriter, feel free to say it).

Speaking as someone with both Monk and Ninja at 80 and both kitted with Magian weapons... I only leveled Ninja because I enjoy the job. When it comes to doing damage, tanking, and soloing, Monk wins pretty handily. And that's counting my Taipan Fangs, too. I love my Ursine Claws, but even Taipans are beating the hell out of what I can pull off on Ninja.

[Oulanbator]

Mnk with AH weapon and no footwork OA3 > Significantly higher DPS than Nin.

You can't seriously say shit like this. You're encouraging all the gimps out there in thinking they do well while they suck.

I don't wanna sound like a dick, but I was blowing off most mnks at 75, and was on par with the few good ones. Lv 80 and magian weapons gave Nin a real boost in dmg, going up to +8dmg/weapon, while Mnk only got a tiny up though skill (+3)and through magian weapons.

Bigger raw boost, bigger percent boost compared to the weapons we previoulsy used, bigger boost when related to our lower delay. You should get rid of your illusions.
Outside of OA3 Feet (which probably blows everything for now), Mnk basically got nothing to bump their damage, and the fragile advantage some Mnks may have had is clearly not something you can advocate for anymore.

[Neosutra]

You're comparing Mnk dps to Nin dps, claiming "maybe a good Mnk can keep up", and I'm delusional?

Back the retard train up, Mnk got just as much out of Magians and the update (more so) than Nin. Mnk gets higher haste, higher base damage, better WSs, and utterly destroys Nin in every way. Go away.

[Onorgul]

I don't wanna sound like a dick, but I was blowing off most mnks at 75, and was on par with the few good ones. Lv 80 and magian weapons gave Nin a real boost in dmg, going up to +8dmg/weapon, while Mnk only got a tiny up though skill (+3)and through magian weapons.

The Monks you were comparing against were really terrible, then. Even with Innin and being able to stay behind a mob at all times (hardly a guarantee), there's no way you'd beat my Monk and I'm hardly peak of the mountain.

As for not gaining much... I went from D+18 with Destroyers to D+22 with Taipan Fangs. Add in the gains from Hand-to-Hand skill and that's directly on par with gains earned for Ninja.

I'm not entirely clear to which katana you're referring that you gain +8 on, either, as Sekka are all of 2 points higher than Senjuinrikio, Tobi and Kannagi are 9 points above it, and the Blade: Ku Uzura is 6 points over Senjuinrikio.

And all of this is woefully inferior to Ursine Claws OA3 and Footwork, but Ninja still doesn't begin to keep up with Taipan Fangs unless we're talking about some idiot in full Aurore rocking a Brown Belt and similarly lacklustre gear.

[Oulanbator]

You're comparing Mnk dps to Nin dps, claiming "maybe a good Mnk can keep up", and I'm delusional?

You're not delusional. You simply don't know how to read, or you're an idiot.
"On par" means "similar results". I'm not saying Mnk can keep up. I'm saying good players get similar results no matter the job (outside of zones where you can seriously counterstance, which are limited to salvage).

The Monks you were comparing against were really terrible, then.

Lol yeah... You don't know who I played with.
You pull out the "the others sucked" card because you have nothing better to convince people. It's not even a logical argument, it's a matter of whose words will the reader trust.

You don't wanna trust me, fine, keep thinking whatever you want. I'm done talking with people talking like tabloids.

[Onorgul]

On what basis should I trust you? The math doesn't back up your assertions and my experience playing both jobs certainly doesn't reflect your claims.

We get it, you like Ninja. Go play Ninja. Hell, you've made it clear that you hate Monk for some unspecified reason, so stop playing it already.

[Dooom]

You don't wanna trust me, fine, keep thinking whatever you want. I'm done talking with people talking like tabloids.

If by this you mean "refuting your points with logic" then sure. Flaws in your arguments are pointed out, you ignore them, then call other people idiots. Pretty much what I'd expect from you.

[CDF]

Ninja can get relatively more out of the update and specifically Magian weapon options (for DD) than monk H2H can. This should be obvious partly because of reasons, some already stated, that monk is more user friendly ("easy mode") than ninja: higher base damage, better WS, and just a plain higher ceiling (BB Usukane).

Hochomasamune is actually a good katana, so let's consider using that for the following example along with Uzura with Store TP as a Magian katana a player might pursue for ninja (Blade: Ku dmg 10% is interesting, but I'm not sure that the bonus affects all the hits...).

While the "base" damage increase from Destroyers to fire Taipan can be from 56 to 60 (before fSTR), the base damage increase from Senju/Perdu to Hochomasamune/Uzura is from 38/32 to 45/43. Because of additional store TP, Hochomasamune/Uzura is likely to have higher WS frequency than Senju/Perdu, also. And since ninja generally requires more hits to WS than monk does, it shouldn't be difficult to see where ninja can get more out of the update than monk H2H can (also considering a viable multihit like Enchu OAT as opposed to the horrible Enchu OA2-3T).

[Tsuko_Asura]

You all been trizzolled.

[CDF]

And if dancer can get an easy additional 10% dual wield just from Abyssea (Nusku's sash doesn't really count), it isn't unreasonable to think ninja could get another 10% (or even more) in the future from some combination of equipment and job trait (that doesn't compete with existing haste options).

[Neosutra]

I always wondered this CDF, but is your name based on Cumulative Distribution Function, or something else >.>.. That's all I see when I see/hear CDF.

That being said, Nin needs a LOT more than 10% more DW from gear to come close to Mnk (or any other decent DD job) in damage.

[Firedemon]

Iron Ram Lance or Seignur Shield for Citadel Buster? (-10% DMG VS +5 MDB)

[Dooom]

^ Impossible to answer without knowing your other gear/buffs.