What's Better?

[Nightfyre]

I think that you are neglecting the fact that your attack is actually only increasing by 52 in that cited example, or 8.33% since any added attack over 52 is already at cap and not raising cRatio anymore. Also that 8.33% increase only applies to the WS and not the entire cycle, WS being around 50ish percent of the cycles damage, looks pretty counter productive to me.

I know I used the words "full benefit" in reference to Boost at least twice in that post. If you're capping attack then obviously you shouldn't be boosting, and I was only quoting his round to WS values, not his sample pDIF values.

However, your secondary point is correct... I made the mistake of only addressing WS damage. I'll go back and revise in a bit, in Abyssea at the moment. Long story short it's not worthwhile.

[Plow]

Not really an argument to be had anyway, fighters > sam for majority of things.

That's a pretty serious assertion, especially if you consider apoc/bravura, but that's not "majority of things" I suppose.

[Plow]

Honestly, I don't believe you. And if you did, you wouldn't be using the examples you have used. As I said, you should be switching to a Rose Strap and all the numbers you spewed were not optimized. So I guess you improperly attempt to do so, and really do quite a shitty job of it...but whatever helps you feel good.

I'm sorry, I forgot "I don't want to make those macros, and I don't believe anyone else does" is a completely legitimate argument on BG.

Who the hell says I'm not accounting for rose strap?

I'd love to see a parse of yours from any event where you got Sam roll. I'd be willing to bet a lot that you gained 0 damage, or in fact lost damage from this amount of micromanaging.

Switching macro sets every 5 minutes is not a complex or considerable amount of micromanagement. NOT being willing to do so is fucking pathetic.

How did you get for a True when I used +1.3+1.3+1.3 and shit? Not following the math of what +1.3 means? It also helps for a 2nd roll if you get hit -once-, but I'm sure you never get hit. Prolly at least 30-40%+ of the time.

ok, I made a mistake because I'm really having a hard time paying attention to someone that thinks they're the best in the world claiming laziness in macros is a legitimate argument, while they were pointing out something I haven't contested in any way shape or form

who actually takes damage almost half of their runs to 100tp? people that are playing with terribads that never pull hate of them, but are also bad enough themselves that they're that pathetic managing shadows or seigan?

wait, lemme guess, you don't bother with seigan or third eye macros right?


and, again, if you're optimizing your x-hit builds, getting hit almost always allows you to drop stp for the rest of that run to 100

Again, I didn't make up the +4 D scythe...which will outdmg your setup uhh, always probably?

That +4d scythe can't 5 hit without sam roll without giving up bomblet, charm/torque, and both ring slots or 1 + haste, while rocking aurum and rose strap.

It can be competitive with belt, without it's not even remotely close.

You. Aren't. Optimizing. You're choosing 7? accuracy over 5str, 5dex, 5subtleblow and 4 base Dmg (and 1 fSTR). I guarantee you that you can do better than that elsewhere.

I am optimizing for what I have available. I don't have belt, so there's absolutely no contest. With bad luck on procs apoc is probably even going to fall short of stp reckoning without belt. 5hit is a big fucking difference for scythe.

Of course, you could be suggesting rajas is amazing for reasons other than the stp while at the same time proposing a -4str/-4dex ring in the other slot.

There are zero situations where it'd be beneficial for me to drop Rajas. Just like most the times you sit here and argue about the storetp, you completely neglect the rest of the stats on the ring. As I've said multiple times now, you should be accuracy capped anyway, making your other option what exactly?

So you're acc capped on every mob in abyssea? Speaking of parses, can I see your 95% on AV? I've never fought him, but from what I understand his evasion is pretty damn high for a 75 cap mob.

I don't know amano setup particularly well, but I know with 3 stp merits you're 5 hitting on an 11 with no stp gear whatsoever.

But we'll pretend (and fucking hope and pray) you knew that, because heaven forbid you admitted you didn't realize it while using arguably the best weapon in the game.

I mean, it's not like you specifically said a little bit ago that you tell cors not to bother with 11 or anything.

[FailureMidgard]

Who the hell says I'm not accounting for rose strap?

The #s you quoted of where a Rajas would help. I ran the #s, and you were correct, however, if you used a Rose Strap, Rajas would have helped the 2 #s under that, and you would have a 5hit on 8-11. Backpedal, please.

who actually takes damage almost half of their runs to 100tp? people that are playing with terribads that never pull hate of them, but are also bad enough themselves that they're that pathetic managing shadows or seigan?

I tank the majority of Ein, but whatever.

wait, lemme guess, you don't bother with seigan or third eye macros right?

Try to stay on point, it'll make this not a headache to read.

and, again, if you're optimizing your x-hit builds, getting hit almost always allows you to drop stp for the rest of that run to 100

'cause when I'm sitting at 79% haste in Ein while parsing and getting spammed to fuck, with 3 different corsairs doing rolls, I really want to look for that. Honestly, it's not realistic. Furthermore, if I -were- to drop storeTP, it still wouldn't be on ring...

That +4d scythe can't 5 hit without sam roll without giving up bomblet, charm/torque, and both ring slots or 1 + haste, while rocking aurum and rose strap.

Neither 5hits without sam roll...do you mean 6hit? Your last statement was:

And really, if you're drk/sam, there is not a single roll with reckoning where you need rajas to break 5 hit.

Well, if you meant 6hit...it gets it with Rajas as a true. If you meant 5hit, then wtf are you smoking, neither gets it without sam roll, but we'll look at the numbers anyway...
Let's say 7, no sam, for +16? 15+16+5=36, 14.4*1.36=19.5, 19.5*5=97.5, have to land 2 additional hits on guillotine. So, gonna go with you are wrong, again. I mean, unless your corsair gets a fucking 1 on sam roll with no sam and doesn't double up? Let me guess, you have a macros for that too!?

So you're acc capped on every mob in abyssea? Speaking of parses, can I see your 95% on AV? I've never fought him, but from what I understand his evasion is pretty damn high for a 75 cap mob.

I don't know the exact evasion of every mob, but yes, with proper food and gear, I am. I parse them as I go to get a decent guess at their evasion, and next time I go back I know what food/gearset to wear.

This is just auto-swing hits. The first number is total autoswing damage. The second is what % of my personal damage my auto-swing damage was. The ratio is hits/misses. The final percentage was my melee accuracy. Oh ya, and rings are Rajas/Strigoi, if I haven't made that clear.

Failure                4376   39.56 %       43/4   91.49 % 
Failure                2603   38.19 %       32/1   96.97 %  
Failure                3958   46.36 %       41/0  100.00 %  
Failure                2406   30.79 %       32/2   94.12 % 
Failure                1769   22.72 %       26/0  100.00 %
Failure                2631   35.17 %       32/1   96.97 % 
Failure                3097   37.08 %       38/2   95.00 %

I don't know amano setup particularly well, but I know with 3 stp merits you're 5 hitting on an 11 with no stp gear whatsoever.

I 5hit on 2, 8, 9, 10, 11. 7 falls just shy unless I get hit. I tell my corsairs not to worry with an 11, but snake-eye from 7>8 is good.

But we'll pretend (and fucking hope and pray) you knew that, because heaven forbid you admitted you didn't realize it while using arguably the best weapon in the game.

I mean, it's not like you specifically said a little bit ago that you tell cors not to bother with 11 or anything.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why the fuck would I have a cor snake-eye to an 11 when it doesn't do a single thing for me? 5hit is a 5hit, extra TP is aftermath duration which isn't a problem. Nice try in an attempt to flame me. BTW, before you check, it doesn't make a 4hit either (I'm also not sure if there's even a cap to StoreTP).

I tell my corsairs that 2=8=9=10=11, don't waste a snake-eye for an 11, etc, but don't leave it at a 7 either.

[CDF]

Just a few things I want to comment on from the AV thread:

"Getting attacked by a mob can negate the effect of Rajas" - I'm surprised anyone can forward this argument in 2010. Mob TP can only help, not detract.

Getting stuck on 99.0 TP with 4.8 TP/hit after a 5-hit Blade: Jin? Given 95% hit rate and 15% DA rate for TP and WS, the probability of having a 5-hit Blade: Jin is around 20%, but in any case you would still be better off with store TP +5 from Rajas than without.

With 4.6 TP/hit and the above conditions, the modal number of hits to get 100 TP (with Blade: Jin) is 20 with limiting probability .887701 (maybe you lose TP for whatever reason, and you start from 0 at the beginning). With 4.8 TP/hit, the modal number of hits drops to 19 with the same limiting probability (.887701). The store TP is actually doing something if you consider all possibilities and not wring your hands about 99 TP.

[Plow]

The #s you quoted of where a Rajas would help. I ran the #s, and you were correct, however, if you used a Rose Strap, Rajas would have helped the 2 #s under that, and you would have a 5hit on 8-11. Backpedal, please.

Again, I'm not saying you should never use rajas. Stop the straw mans.

I tank the majority of Ein, but whatever.


Try to stay on point, it'll make this not a headache to read.

'cause when I'm sitting at 79% haste in Ein while parsing and getting spammed to fuck, with 3 different corsairs doing rolls, I really want to look for that. Honestly, it's not realistic. Furthermore, if I -were- to drop storeTP, it still wouldn't be on ring...

Ok, so in einherjar it's not reasonable for you to optimize, congratulations, you've found one place where you have a reasonable excuse for laziness.

Because having the corsair doing sam roll tell you what he rolled is difficult.

Neither 5hits without sam roll...do you mean 6hit? Your last statement was:

Well, if you meant 6hit...it gets it with Rajas as a true. If you meant 5hit, then wtf are you smoking, neither gets it without sam roll, but we'll look at the numbers anyway...
Let's say 7, no sam, for +16? 15+16+5=36, 14.4*1.36=19.5, 19.5*5=97.5, have to land 2 additional hits on guillotine. So, gonna go with you are wrong, again. I mean, unless your corsair gets a fucking 1 on sam roll with no sam and doesn't double up? Let me guess, you have a macros for that too!?

What? stp Reckoning + sam sub + rajas + aurum + brutal + rose = true 5hit drk/sam without any roll. (true actually does matter on drk because it lets you ws in good gear, btw, and terrible luck can be countered with some combination including parts of tath/ecph/chiv/goading/cape)

Unreachable on any other scythe without adding in tath+goading, or chiv+ecph + goading, or cape + goading, or whatever.

But, if you add in sam roll, reckoning + any roll with a sam in pt = 5 hit. Even on a 6, given brutal and not whiffing guillos.

Rajas becomes useful again then for 4 hits with a 2, with an 11 you've got 10 minutes of 4 hit from brutal + reckoning + 2 or more hit guillo without it.

edit: I thought you realized I was saying with sam in pt...

I don't know the exact evasion of every mob, but yes, with proper food and gear, I am. I parse them as I go to get a decent guess at their evasion, and next time I go back I know what food/gearset to wear.

And I'm sure that food/gearset could never be improved by replacing rajas with mars or tor, ever, no matter what.

This is just auto-swing hits. The first number is total autoswing damage. The second is what % of my personal damage my auto-swing damage was. The ratio is hits/misses. The final percentage was my melee accuracy. Oh ya, and rings are Rajas/Strigoi, if I haven't made that clear.

Failure                4376   39.56 %       43/4   91.49 % 
Failure                2603   38.19 %       32/1   96.97 %  
Failure                3958   46.36 %       41/0  100.00 %  
Failure                2406   30.79 %       32/2   94.12 % 
Failure                1769   22.72 %       26/0  100.00 %
Failure                2631   35.17 %       32/1   96.97 % 
Failure                3097   37.08 %       38/2   95.00 %

This is AV? Consider me impressed. I'm generally not talking about using madrigals and feint and shit since I don't do big number stuff, though.

I 5hit on 2, 8, 9, 10, 11. 7 falls just shy unless I get hit. I tell my corsairs not to worry with an 11, but snake-eye from 7>8 is good.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why the fuck would I have a cor snake-eye to an 11 when it doesn't do a single thing for me? 5hit is a 5hit, extra TP is aftermath duration which isn't a problem. Nice try in an attempt to flame me. BTW, before you check, it doesn't make a 4hit either (I'm also not sure if there's even a cap to StoreTP).

It doesn't do a single thing for you to be able to drop rajas, usukane, goading, and possibly rose (if you'd been using it) for 10 fucking minutes?

Pretty sure it would even allow for sword strap with rajas + usukane body + aftermath, but I'm too lazy to do that math for you.

[Plow]

Also, just as an aside, stp reckoning + rose + rajas covers drk/nin 6hit for full perle or dusk+1 mix and match without stp body, but so does non-stp version + goading + rose + brutal + rajas for guillo that land more than 1, but I think you need to ws in goading then, else risk having to bring in parts of chiv/ecph/tath/cape.

[Limlight]

can someone summarize what plow and fail are going on about for me? i'm lazy and don't wish to read it all.

[Chen]

briefly about stp reckoning v SH+10% one
abit more about rajas and whether or not it's *always best* (sam roll varying can make it not so, but optimize that much? yes/no)
& finally some rage + belittling

[Gabai]

Short version is: sTP

[FailureMidgard]

Who the hell says I'm not accounting for rose strap?

The #s you quoted of where a Rajas would help. I ran the #s, and you were correct, however, if you used a Rose Strap, Rajas would have helped the 2 #s under that, and you would have a 5hit on 8-11. Backpedal, please.

Again, I'm not saying you should never use rajas. Stop the straw mans.

Speaking of straw man...where the fuck did I say anything about never using a Rajas? You made the claim you accounted for Rose Strap, but the #s you gave ONLY WORKED IF YOU HAD NO STORETP BESIDES YOUR RECKONING.

Ok, so in einherjar it's not reasonable for you to optimize, congratulations, you've found one place where you have a reasonable excuse for laziness.

Because having the corsair doing sam roll tell you what he rolled is difficult.

You still aren't getting the fact that I would most likely lose damage by trying to mess with it, as if I mess it up even once every 4-5 months, the dmg I lose from it will be more than what I gain from the swap. That's assuming I even gain anything from the swap.

What? stp Reckoning + sam sub + rajas + aurum + brutal + rose = true 5hit drk/sam without any roll. (true actually does matter on drk because it lets you ws in good gear, btw, and terrible luck can be countered with some combination including parts of tath/ecph/chiv/goading/cape)

My bad on that statement then. Unfortunately for you, your argument here is running in circles, and again is pointing out that once again the "ideal" setup is including a Rajas. I will admit that using this setup is worth the loss of the base damage, but again, it's using a Rajas.

But, if you add in sam roll, reckoning + any roll with a sam in pt = 5 hit. Even on a 6, given brutal and not whiffing guillos.

Ok, I'd still like to see your gear, because again, I'd be willing to bet Rajas is still the best bet igoring StoreTP and SubtleBlow.

And I'm sure that food/gearset could never be improved by replacing rajas with mars or tor, ever, no matter what.

Don't have a Mars. No, Tors isn't too hot. Also, if I managed to get a Zilant ring, TPing in that in place of Strigoi would put me dangerously close to dDEX cap on older content, making 1dex=1% crit roughly. Not that I'd ever need that accuracy on old content, but ya know, it makes the dex on Rajas that much better.
I use Red Curry Buns on stuff I care about (OMG I use yellow on random shit like dyna, gonna flame me for this too?), which is 30attack and 2str over Arrabbiata (and Arra costs ~3x more). Arrabbiata may be worth it for a 5-hit build once I get Goading and such, at which point there's no reason I should even have sam roll...Chaos/Fighters...
There may be some really really odd corner case where it'd be worth it to swap out of Rajas, but I have yet to find a mob that is that evasive that I don't cap with Pizza+1 and my normal high accuracy set. Furthermore, most of these higher evasion NMs are either Abyssea NMs that I'm tanking sam/nin or the new MMM NMs. Most all of them I can cap with some combination of accuracy gear and Pizza. If for some reason I still can't, I'm going to question why the fuck I even have Sam roll, should probably just do hunters (and if that's overkill, I can go gain 100 attack and 7 str back by using real food), but, that hasn't happened yet, so it's all good.

This is AV? Consider me impressed. I'm generally not talking about using madrigals and feint and shit since I don't do big number stuff, though.

Yes, it's AV...No feint, but ya, why the fuck would we do AV without a 3-bard rotation?

It doesn't do a single thing for you to be able to drop rajas, usukane, goading, and possibly rose (if you'd been using it) for 10 fucking minutes?

Don't use rose. don't have goading. Drop Usukane Feet already for Dusk+1 w/ Aftermath up. TP in Strigoi ring in my "standard" TP set, I don't see -5dex+1str as a good tradeoff StoreTP aside. I don't have a Mars's ring. Once I get the items from Abyssea, I will be using a 5hit, hopefully. That being said, it will likely be /drg with Usu feet, and guess what...even if I didn't need the storeTP, I'd still keep Usu feet on to TP in because there's absolutely nothing better than 2haste,7acc,7attk for the setup. Usu body is the -only- thing I could drop, and even then I'm losing 2str, 2dex to gain 12 attack, also losing a ton of placeboevasion. Depending on mob target and other buffs, that tradeoff may not even be an upgrade anyway (I'm fairly certain I'm attack capped in Ein, so crit+fSTR is definitely better). I guess I could also swap off to an Osode to gain 2str2dex at the loss of 12 accuracy, but that may uncap my accuracy (not sure, don't care, I've talked to other players I consider to be good relic holders in the past day, 0 say they swap gear based on an 11 sam roll vs other sam roll).

Pretty sure it would even allow for sword strap with rajas + usukane body + aftermath, but I'm too lazy to do that math for you.

'cause losing lets say ~35 TP to get -3% delay and -2% DA for 10min is totally worth it. Wait, then you lose another 35 TP to switch back to a proper grip when a roll of an 8 comes up next. I can't believe you're suggesting swapping grips midfight for an 11.



Maybe we should get back on topic. I'll remind you:
1. You said mnk, thf, nin shouldn't be using Rajas.
2. We all said you're wrong.
3. You tried to save face and used getting hit to say it wasn't useful.
4. I did math and pointed out you were wrong.
5. You went off the deep end on some godawful fucking tangent grasping at straws to find 1 unrealistic retarded ass situation where Rajas isn't worth using, which wasn't even correct but was only a time where you can say 1 of 4 stats on Rajas wasn't beneficial and involves fucking swapping out of Rajas only with sam rolls of certain #s and either consists of using a nonideal scythe for the situation, or you back-pedaled and ended up using Rajas anyway. Oh ya, and you tried to insult me with random baseless insults and the fact that my build/gearsets aren't correct, when they most definitely are (well, barring the fact I'm still working towards completing a good 5hit [I have/had an old subpar one], but I need to come by a Goading belt first).

This shit is going nowhere. Everyone here will admit there are pointless unrealistic corner cases where the StoreTP on Rajas doesn't help. Unless you give us a mob target and the rest of your gear though, you aren't proving Rajas isn't the best option for the slot, because there are -still- other stats that you have refuse to acknowledge. Also, most realistic individual realize just how much you are grasping at straws here. Mojo pointed it out, others I've talked to via PMs/AIM/tells realize it, you're just hellbent on your newfound bastardized version of the original argument to prove that you can find a situation where you don't need Rajas.

[StevenW]

I'm sorry but I'm not very advanced in anything to do with ranged attacks.

I bought a pair of War Brais +1 for quick draw use on Lv72 cor. I was wondering though, are they better than Jaridah Salvars for either of ranged TP or slug shot? (I know I know, HQ or die, but I'm running low on money atm.)

Basically, AGI+5 vs. Range Acc.+2 and Range Att.+3.

Edit: I guess this question is somewhat invalid, just found Dusk Trousers have +10 ranged acc... now if only I could find a pair.

Anyways, would the mixed dmg/acc of AGI+5 still be even somewhat viable for Slug Shot considering the huge acc. bonus from Dusk Trousers?

[Kidnoftle]

I would go with Agi +5 over racc2 ratt3 for slugshot.

Edit: Hell I'd get inv +1 and just use the Agi+5 and dump the jaridah.

[Onorgul]

For the sake of ranged attacks, I'd just suffer the War Brais 'til 78 and Aurore Brais. It's not like it's difficult to level up in Abyssea nowadays.

[StevenW]

For the sake of ranged attacks, I'd just suffer the War Brais 'til 78 and Aurore Brais. It's not like it's difficult to level up in Abyssea nowadays.

Finding a good non-Japanese party seems to be the real trouble.

[Onorgul]

You're a Corsair, what's keeping you out of the JP parties?

[Khajit]

Maybe it's different on your server but Jp tend to be so xenophobic and/or stupid that they're willing to refuse brds(for anything including assault) if the brd isn't 75 yet. I can easily see JP refusing a cor if they're willing to ignore brds. Plus jp tend to prefer thier cors to play like retards and go /whm so having non shitty gear is seen as a bad thing in their eyes.

[Onorgul]

I've run into the xenophobes, sure, but not all of them on Alex are like that. Hell, these days, the only way I can be certain everyone in my party speaks English is if I'm doing something with LS members. A smattering of tourist's Japanese and proper use of auto-translator is generally enough. If you have to suck it up and sub White Mage on Corsair for a couple hours, who cares? You're there to get leveled up so that you can go do the interesting things. The way people get so tightly-wound about using the very most optimal option for the very least optimized situations is very strange.

[StevenW]

I actually got into a great JP party at Lv59, took it all the way to Lv69. Those guys were pretty great. They were all well geared, and focused. Some even left to dump merits and came back, but the party lasted about 4 hours.

Mostly all of the English-speaking parties I get into are with complete idiots... Terrible gear, nothing but dual-wielding dd's, etc.

[Thorny]

nothing but dual-wielding dd's

you say that like it's a bad thing