LS + people who box

[Dooom]

At that time I didn't even asked for one thing in return; I was helping out of pure goodwill. Things changed as time goes on though, I no longer have that mindset. Perhaps I'm too jaded from that experience? I don't know.

I understand feeling jaded completely. I'll run my mule and main up to every event I go to that I can, and do what I can to help out, throwing out extra cures/raises/sleeps/sac pulls/whatever. But I get very annoyed at events like Ein and Dynamis where my healer uses my mule as an excuse to slack off and ignore me completely, "oh I thought you were curing yourself" - we'll ignore that I said my mule was out of MP and needed to rest. So yes, I certainly understand feeling jaded when people take your dual-boxing capabilities for granted and use it as an excuse to slack off.

I'm quite lucky though. My second account already has things like D-chap, Duelist body, and assorted pieces of whm, brd, and blm relic, as well as sky, limbus, and salvage gear. The only thing I could really want for her is red legs, but I quit sky so whatever. But some of my friends aren't so lucky, and when one was only allowed to lot (as an example) whm relic body once it had gone freelot to the whole LS, including people on trial, even though he was running up a whm alt to every event pretty much (and if not whm, then rdm); and then people still decided to QQ about it... yes, it can burn you out. I think a lot of the time, people who complain about "mules lotting gear" are jealous of the fact that other people have an extra account and they don't. Giving mules equal rights to "real" characters? Not so keen on that. But there should be some kind of reward to people who can multibox in an effective way.

[pooter01]

The way I've seen it. The player gets the points from attending events. If he has two characters, one with say mnk, other with say rdm. It is his choice on how he spends his points. He could choose to burn all his points on his mnk only. or all on his rdm. or he could try to gear both, but less aggressively.

How is a player with one mnk char, and one rdm char different from a player that leveled mnk and rdm on the same char? Even if he only brings one at a time, it's no different than the single char which can only play one job at once. But the player with two char can bring both, and even if he is only focusing on one char, still utilizes the second which is more of an impact than the second not being there. But he would still only get 1 set of points for the event. then have to decide on how to spend them.

[Chen]

The way I've seen it. The player gets the points from attending events. If he has two characters, one with say mnk, other with say rdm. It is his choice on how he spends his points. He could choose to burn all his points on his mnk only. or all on his rdm. or he could try to gear both, but less aggressively.

this sounds right, for items like novio which LS's would only allow a member 1 of (to keep/use, not sell), the dualboxer shouldn't be allowed to lot two. same as things like dalmy, if they have RDM WAR SAM + RDM DRK THF PLD, they should need to choose 1 char to get the item, not x2

[Marihoki]

Every thread needs their token troll.

@Marihoki

I understand where you're coming from. I used to think that way too. I have plenty of times triboxed a tank, BRD, and TH mule just for gods, so we don't need to waste a slot having a real person go THF. After awhile the depreciation sets in and it was just plain disappointing. "... but nobody is making you box..." Ok, I get that point too. At that time I didn't even asked for one thing in return; I was helping out of pure goodwill. Things changed as time goes on though, I no longer have that mindset. Perhaps I'm too jaded from that experience? I don't know.

And as far as I'm concerned, I never pushed for something like my alt having any priority on relic armor. My dyna shell sells and splits currency via a set of rules. Just want to get people who boxes well a little extra reward via gil, and seeing if that was asking for far too much.

Nah doesn't seem that jaded. I understand that having to dual-box all the time is discouraging, especially if you are not seeing any gain from it even though people get dependent on it. It's more work and really just more stress to do everything right. I have just always been in the mindset that I could always say that I don't want to dual-box, and that I will come one of my chars according to which job they need. If you give money for people that are dual-boxing, it is an incentive to do so. If they do it will it makes things go smoother.

Totally shafting a second char out of gear though seems a bit harsh though. Its understandable if the person wanted the same piece on both characters(two D. Chapeaus~) that people would be reluctant to give that to them, but if they wanted two completely different sets of gear and never asked for the same thing on both chars, I don't see what the issue is with giving them gear if they are always going to have the account available to play. Should just be seen as additional jobs to their main character~

[Julian]

I don't see what all the bitching about having 2 of the same items is. It's not like you can trade your Duelist's Chapeau to your mule for when your mule is rdm and you're on war or something.

[aduidarnenye]

There is a big difference between a mule and a second character. It seems silly to me to stop someone from lotting on something they will use on their second character just because of that "mule" stigma.

If your linkshell uses points then the points should belong to the player, not the character.

If player A plays one character while player B plays two characters, if player B has several times the numbers of points than player A, why should player A get stuff over player B, regardless of character it is put on?

If you have the points you should be able to spend them however you want. If you don't have points you can't spend em.

[Calina]

I multi boxed for years at 1 point had 4 active mule accounts(all given to me by friends who quit) and never took gear for them unless it was rot even when offered. Don't be greedy looking for extra stuff just cause you play 2-5 characters at a time.Do it cause its fun!and if you don't find it fun stop doing it.This is just a game if your not having fun change up how you play.

[Massimo]

I multi boxed for years at 1 point had 4 active mule accounts(all given to me by friends who quit) and never took gear for them unless it was rot even when offered. Don't be greedy looking for extra stuff just cause you play 2-5 characters at a time.Do it cause its fun!and if you don't find it fun stop doing it.This is just a game if your not having fun change up how you play.

Oh ok. Well if you did it!

[Aksannyi]

I agree that if you have the points, you should be able to spend them as you want, as long as you've been actively using that alt account to benefit the ls when needed.

[Velocy]

Well... first, I would like to difference between "Mule's" and "2nd Characters". Mule's are considered as either extra Equipment storgage, or if someone keeps like a PL character in my opinion.

For us, people who dual box are treated as one character if the 2nd character is activly useful for the Linkshell. Points wise: If a person is going to Einherjar and has his 2nd character camping Tiamat for example, he is only getting points for the main event, which would be einherjar. So no double points for 2 characters at events. In exchange, people are allowed to lot items for the 2nd character IF it is played like a main character. But if a person would like to get an item twice, he might get in the back line even if he has the points to lot, this is mostly decided by sackholders.

Simple examples
#1:
A person has 2 characters:
A Elvaan playing: PLD, SAM, DRK
A Tarutaru playing: WHM, RDM, BLM

He uses either character dependend on the job he is asked to come by a sackholder.
He is allowed to lot equipment for both characters...

#2:
A person has 2 characters:
A Hume playing: NIN, RNG, WHM, BLM, BLU
A Tarutaru playing: WHM

The Tarutaru is mainly used to put to camps while doing other stuff with main character, or to PL himselfe. He is not allowed to lot equipment with his Tarutaru with priority, still he might be able to get "leftovers" for his 2nd char.

For Dualboxing we give no special reward and all people in our Linkshell seem to accept that. So it's all up to the situation how the 2nd character is used in the Linkshell. And for getting 2x the same item... we just handle it to let him lot once... and then he drops back in priority until he gets lucky and noone is there who want's it else or if some time has passed and a sackholder decides it would be good invested if the item goes to the 2nd character.

[Drai]

shit is simple, dkp, lets say you earn 1 point every half an hour, if you dbox and your mule is usefull, than you get an extra point per hour meaning youd get 3 points per hour instead of 2, it's not enough to make it unfair but enough to reward them.

than if you want gear for the mule, spend points, it's that simple you earned the points so people can't say shit if you want 2 dalmaticas for both toons.

[orson]

Duelist Chapeau goes to heffer
Dls Chap-1 drops, and heffer wins lot
heffer has 4/5 rdm AF2, barring hat for storage
heffer, presuming you are on a point system, and not a favortism system, is willing to drop more pts than anyone else on duelist chapeau to store it

Is heffer not allowed to lot it because "hes getting two hats"?

Thats why I prefer point system. Theres no cocksucking involved, theres no debate over who should get it...they have more pts, its theirs. Sometimes it leads to retards getting decent/good gear, but they were going to get it at some point.

for my dynamis LS, I made a rule that mules have to be registered to lot items at high tiers, my concern is moving points, nothing more. If someone wants to spend 100 points to put a Duelist Cheapau on their mules, when the next viable lotter can only drop 20...why should they be denied?


I've found out that most of the time, people who bitch and moan about this are fucking moochers who want to get whatever they can for as little they can. In my LS's case, the only people who really had a problem with mules lotting shit at top tier were people who never prio, never top tier, just try to scavenge shit at 3 pts.

That is a terrible example and a person like that is a loot whore. Lotting a hugely important upgrade just so you can store it is greed straight up. That's why points systems have are flaws just like any other system.

On the other hand though I agree that people who just coast by and do the minimum amount to net the best gear isn't fair either. If someone has an extra character where they want to spend points to get the piece of gear then I don't see the issue. Very rarely do you come across people having say 2 rdms though. Usually people have like a mage character and a melee character in my experience. Basically if someone did have say 2 rdms and wanted to lot 2 d.chaps then they'd have to have put in at least twice as much effort as the next person. Everyone's time is equal so just because you have the luxury of having a d-box char that doesn't entitle the person to get double the points/gear.

[Aksannyi]

Usually I'd say that most people who are 2boxing are not getting extra points for that second character, so they're (generally) not going to have such an abundance of points that they'll be able to get 2 chapeaus or whatever back to back. Saying perhaps, chapeau is 150 points and there's 5 in line for it, if you get it for your main which spends your 150 points, in most linkshells, that's going to set you back behind at least a few of the others waiting in line for it so that you wouldn't be able to get it again right away anyhow.

In addition, the way our dkp worked was that there was a 7 day waiting period before your wishlist became active, so even if you got chapeau and then put it right back on your wishlist for your mule, you'd still have to wait at least a week before getting it. I was never going to be able to bring myself and my mule into Dynamis and pick up two chapeaus in one day.

Granted there are always people who have been in shells for a damn eternity who have a plethora of points and can outlot just about everybody, but still, that person has put their time in and earned their points and the way I see it, they're entitled to spend them.

[Raithen]

That is a terrible example and a person like that is a loot whore. Lotting a hugely important upgrade just so you can store it is greed straight up.

That's not loot whore or greed. It's the way SE's system works. Inventory space is a huge commodity. If someone has the points to lot another chapeau, they can lot the chapeau.

[Restrat]

the entire point of this game is to get rare gear at level 75. You are telling someone they can't get a really good item because someone else wants inventory slots?

[Byrthnoth]

Lets assume everyone has the potential to dual box. Some people will be able to dual box effectively (PLD in Dynamis), while others will not due to activity (DD in Dynamis). In order to dual box anything (except TH4@HNMs) effectively, you need to have a less attention-intensive job to start with. In the case of dual boxing TH4, your fraction of the extra drops your LS gets are your reward.

So you're playing PLD and BRD in Dynamis. Good, together you're spending one player worth of attention and probably generating slightly more than one player worth of usefulness assuming you're a decent bard. The increase in the rate your PLD gets drops is your reward for dualboxing a useful job.

[ronin sparthos]

the entire point of this game is to get rare gear at level 75. You are telling someone they can't get a really good item because someone else wants inventory slots?

No because that's how SE's system works. *giggle*

If you want the Chapeau+1, accept the idea that you might have to wait a while before storing the set based on your Dynamis LS' situation. Using the excuse "i need inventory slots" is weak and stinks of a lootwhore mentality.

Again it comes down to who would get betting the hat instead of player A who needs it to store stuff. It'd be stupid to have player B pass if attendance (points) are close but on the other hand if player C is the type of person that halfasses and generally comes to occupy virtual space then player A should be allowed to lot.

Shit is situational, rules never work as intended etc.

[Rehn]

Lets assume everyone has the potential to dual box. Some people will be able to dual box effectively (PLD in Dynamis), while others will not due to activity (DD in Dynamis). In order to dual box anything (except TH4@HNMs) effectively, you need to have a less attention-intensive job to start with. In the case of dual boxing TH4, your fraction of the extra drops your LS gets are your reward.

So you're playing PLD and BRD in Dynamis. Good, together you're spending one player worth of attention and probably generating slightly more than one player worth of usefulness assuming you're a decent bard. The increase in the rate your PLD gets drops is your reward for dualboxing a useful job.

On the issue of effectiveness, I've main assist on MNK a handful of times while keeping up melee/mage songs up. I've also kept up a haste cycle on RDM while helping sleep inc pulls, also while playing MNK. PLD BRD, PLD RDM, PLD WHM, DD BRD, DD RDM, etc, I've almost done most of the mage/melee combo avail. It all boils down to the attentiveness of the player. But I do believe playing 2x of the same type of job is challenging as hell though (2 melee engaging/disengaging... etc).

If by drops for myself, I'm already capped on relic armors I want, sans shadow ring. If you mean drops for the shell as a whole... then it goes back to being a person of goodwill. It's simple to take the easy way out and stop boxing, but it is an asset I'm not willing to part with so fast. But if a shells opinion end up becoming indifferent to that boxer's effort, then they should probably stop anyways, since it might not be making a difference to begin with I suppose >_>

[SovereignFFXI]

Some other good examples to consider:

I used to regularly dual box Limbus. In my linkshell limbus runs, we would normally pool all the coins and then split them evenly amongst the members in the run. So say we had 50 coins at the end and ten players, each player would get 5 coins.

The debate here was that since I paid twice for soap, should I be entitled to coins on both characters. I felt I was, since I had paid twice, though others felt I was not since as expected, I normally just sold all the coins for a larger profit. I ended up just not dual boxing Limbus anymore because it was always an issue when it came time to split coins.

Another example would be something like this:

My linkshell usually lets single piece currency auto-sort inside Dynamis. While it's totally random how many pieces you'll get (since they're auto-sorting into inventories instead of being lotted on), it's inevitable that a player with two accounts inside the zone will get pieces on both accounts. Is this fair to other players who only have one account inside the zone?

My linkshell has normally taken the position of Main over Mule on everything. Meaning that each player has a single main account that takes priority over any mules in both gear and gil, leaving the mules to basically pick up the unwanted, freelotted scraps. While sure, there are a few secondary accounts in our linkshell that spend more time at events than some mains, it just doesnt seem fair to be giving a single player so much gear across multiple accounts when there are other players looking for the same rewards.

[Eleven19]

I had a few people when I actually ran a shell in this God forsaken game who had differing levels of "Mules" and "Other characters." The first conclusion we came to concerning 2nd characters is that nobody can get the same item twice (Unless of course nobody else WANTS the item in question). So we never had one person with two E.body or, well really even two hermes sandals.

Another point is that the 2nd character can't just be some single 75, no sea access, lack of useful equipment character used to hold gear. Mule, obviously. What I did have sometimes were people that simply had different jobs on different characters but had the same level of access on both characters. Say C1 has BRD BLM RDM SMN SAM and C2 has BLM WHM SMN WAR DRK. They'd be able to lot job specific gear, but they would never be able to lot the same gear for their overlapping jobs.

I didn't give any incentive to dual box, nor did I discourage it. The way I saw it, especially if you had differing jobs on your two characters, you were getting rewarded by lotting more gear for more jobs just like everyone else. If jobs overlapped then, well, tough, have to put them at the end of the gear line to relot something. That's the only fair way to do it in my eyes. I just couldn't see giving it to one person twice just for dual boxing. You gotta think about your members' moral when that kind of thing happens, too.