LS + people who box

[Poby]

Nynja's previous post /thread
Above post answers OP's question perfectly imo.
If your 2boxing of own accord, thats you.
If asked to do so, should definitely be rewarded.

Your putting in more work than the average member, and so deserves more output. I have all my stuff on only 1 char and don't dual box, so completely unbiased when i say the person that does deserves more than me.

As for who lots what
Imo points are a measurement of each members contribution to the shell.
If someone has more points in a shell, unless there is some underhanded business, that person literally farmed up a greater portion of whatever the linkshell is about to fight. Keeping that in mind, if that member who farmed the pop wants an item, it can go to his lvl 1 char before it goes to the person with less points. hes the one who farmed the monster your fighting in the first place.

A simple anology would be someone with 60 points and someone with 20 points. The person who has 60 points has spent more time farming/ getting the pop item. those are his points, hes already put in the work for them. He shouldnt be told who he should spend those points on. The linkshell owes him those points. He doesnt has to spend them to benefit the shell, because the shell was the benefactor of him earning said points in the first place.

Thats from an extremely cold hearted~real world perspective. I feel bad for outlotting my members on anything in-game, lol.

[mcb]

I wouldnt put your alt on equal standing with anyone in the ls either, because thats fucking retarded. People play this game to gear up their characters, not to watch it go to somebody's mule where they already have the item on their main, thats just plain stupid. Dualboxers already have an advantage because they can have multiple characters at camps, which helps with making $ and with claiming if they choose to bot.

the individual advantage people get camping and farming has nothing to do with this. if 1 person is doing the work of 2; because others are to lazy to be at events, lack the skill to do it, or your ls simply lacks members or diversity that the dualbox is needed; then they deserve their reward. carrying trigs and being a glass mule is nice, but its not really doing the job of 2 people. there's even quite a few groups now that have several dualbox people in every event and that is just how the group mantains its lower number event. if the mule is acting as more than just a mule, then it deserves consideration; if its just a mule that you bring sometimes and all you really do with it is autofollow and ballad 2 times, maybe an elegy then your looking at a mule.

[aduidarnenye]

Dual boxing and getting gear for both characters isn't about putting more work in or being twice as useful. You probably don't get double the points for two characters (although my first linkshell's first dual boxer used to insist on getting more points for dual boxing two characters).

Trying to gear up two characters on the points of one player is going to be a lot slower than trying to gear up one character on the same amount of points. It should not, therefore, really matter if the person is putting gear on two characters.

You'll probably end up spending more points faster gearing two characters than one person gearing one character. It should, theoretically, all work out evenly in the end (especially of the two players in question play an equal amount of time).

[Rehn]

Some other good examples to consider:

I used to regularly dual box Limbus. In my linkshell limbus runs, we would normally pool all the coins and then split them evenly amongst the members in the run. So say we had 50 coins at the end and ten players, each player would get 5 coins.

The debate here was that since I paid twice for soap, should I be entitled to coins on both characters. I felt I was, since I had paid twice, though others felt I was not since as expected, I normally just sold all the coins for a larger profit. I ended up just not dual boxing Limbus anymore because it was always an issue when it came time to split coins.

I don't have a grasp on that specific situation of yours, but did they at least compensate your 2nd char with 2 coins or something? If they don't at least pay you back the soap's cost in coins, then it didn't sound like they care about your effort... I'd stop too if that was my case.

If that guy's mule is making or breaking events get another person to join the shell. If you were previously giving gear to a mule then an extra member obviously isn't going to change your gear distribution by much.

My shell doesn't exactly get many capable people joining a dyna-only shell often. We tend to decline/avoid obviously troublesome/beyond helpless individuals, since we used to have problems with idiots joining. Like a certain person that thinks BLU/DNC is badass or other silly job combos.

If we could get more level-headed people to join we would. But at this late in the stage, new blood is hard to find. Just about everyone has their own dyna shell already, and we'll usually only have average players join or people who left other dyna shells.

Even worse is when holidays come around and 1/3 of our folks gotta do their RL deal. So if we want a run to happen, it usually falls on the core people that can attend (and myself who boxes).

[Nevex]

ITT: Point-based systems are nowhere as flawless as you thought.

Personally, I think that if your LS is desperate enough to expect people to dualbox regularly and even reward them for doing so, then that is a problem.

On the other hand, rewarding people who dualbox on their own accord is an entirely different story. But there's a difference between dualboxing a RDM when you already have 2 of them, and dualboxing a RDM when there are 0. Good luck trying to measure the level of contribution a dualboxed character brings with points alone.

Regardless, giving something like an E.body or a Ridill to a mule that can vanish anytime over some dedicated member who's not able to dualbox always sucks, no matter how you look at it.

[FailureMidgard]

Regardless, giving something like an E.body or a Ridill to a mule that can vanish anytime over some dedicated member who's not able to dualbox always sucks, no matter how you look at it.

I was ok with what you said kinda until this ... what? Have you done some extensive research that says mules disappear more often than other players? 'cause from my experience, it's actually the opposite. So far as sometimes even when players quit, their main becomes a mule, and their mule remains a mule. I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that mules up and leave of their own accord and players are bastions of dedication though.


Also, I think most people aren't asking for extra pts for dualboxing either, just the ability to spend their points on their mule...ya know, that they earned for showing up.

[Xajii]

Really? 'cause basically every point system ever developed disagrees with you.

Only if the point system allows the person's mule to amass the same number of points as his own character. Which is an OP-type dilemma contextualized in the point systems.

What I'm saying is if you have a point system someone and their mules should all be using the same points to lot. I'm also saying that I personally believe there are situations where even if the technical rules allow you to gear up your mule with cool shit, it doesn't always seem "fair" to me. So if your main char already has an Ebody and you have the points to get your mule an Ebody no one can say no, but I would say it's pretty selfish IF someone else has near or equal the amount of points and is only on one character, etc.

If you really think you're better for 2 boxing then give them a tiny point incentive to make them feel special, one that wouldn't make a huge difference between someone with one character who attends the same amount of events but enough to please the whiny person that think they deserve it. Two separate poinit counts is off the walls ridiculous.

edit:

THANK YOU you said it better than i did! except for the part where the mule is up for ridill/e.body sell that shit

While I personally agree with the aforementioned mains > buyers > mules my shell leader doesn't seem to think so; they're not up for purchase anytime in the near or far future, we've plenty of people who need them, this guy just happens to have had both items for his main from another shell and attends nearly 100% of the time in current shell, and has listed his priorities as Ebody/Ridill for that particular mule.

[Raithen]

Let's be honest here, one single item no matter how good it is does not change your LS's performance.

Ok so if one item doesn't change your LS's performance, why is it a big deal to let someone who worked harder get an item twice? In case you didn't know this, items don't only drop once. The player who has less points/didn't work as hard can get the next one, god knowing when that will be (hi dring). If you want it sooner, work harder.

Something that drastically helps the linkshell out as a whole is a lot different than lotting something that makes your mule marginally better.

The same item will have the same effect on any one character no matter what stupid title you give the character. Nothing can make your linkshell as a whole better on one non-mule character, but your mule only marginally better on the same job. This is why people should not arbitrarily tell other people how items will be lotted. The concept of "better for the linkshell" is greatly skewed.

[NynJa]

Regardless, giving something like an E.body or a Ridill to a mule that can vanish anytime over some dedicated member who's not able to dualbox always sucks, no matter how you look at it.

MrDedicated who pays an extra 15$ a month for MrDedicatedTwo is probably more dedicated to the game then GimpyMcGimp who pays for only one account. Gimpy McGimp is more likely to vanish faster than MrDedicated and MrDedicatedTwo.


Point Systems flawed? The only flaw in them is that GimpyMcGimp who coasts through events while amassing points is going to get good gear that they probably shouldnt get. That's about it, theres no discussion over who should be getting gear, over any favortism, etc etc.

[FailureMidgard]

Only if the point system allows the person's mule to amass the same number of points as his own character. Which is an OP-type dilemma contextualized in the point systems.

What I'm saying is if you have a point system someone and their mules should all be using the same points to lot. I'm also saying that I personally believe there are situations where even if the technical rules allow you to gear up your mule with cool shit, it doesn't always seem "fair" to me. So if your main char already has an Ebody and you have the points to get your mule an Ebody no one can say no, but I would say it's pretty selfish IF someone else has near or equal the amount of points and is only on one character, etc.

If you really think you're better for 2 boxing then give them a tiny point incentive to make them feel special, one that wouldn't make a huge difference between someone with one character who attends the same amount of events but enough to please the whiny person that think they deserve it. Two separate poinit counts is off the walls ridiculous.

Did you even read my other post? Lets assume you only get points once. 2 people, player A and player B have the exact same attendance (and thus points gained).
Player A has gotten an Ebody, an Abody, and a VBody.
Player B has gotten an DChap and an Ebody.
DChap drops. You honestly feel player A deserves it more just because it's a main? What if we add VHelm to the list player A has gotten? Apparently selfishness is not related to how much you take, just if you take the same item twice! I'd say it'd be pretty selfish of player A to take the dchap if he knew player B used that mule rdm for the shell a lot.

[NynJa]

Uhoh, heres a dilemma

Player A has a D.Chap
Player B has a D.Chap, and a mule

Player A wants to lot to store
Player B wants to lot on mule

WHO GETS? all other things equal.

[FailureMidgard]

Uhoh, heres a dilemma

Player A has a D.Chap
Player B has a D.Chap, and a mule

Player A wants to lot to store
Player B wants to lot on mule

WHO GETS? all other things equal.

The one that bitches more.

[orson]

Whys it greed? Its greed because I want to spend 50 points to give myself inv+4 over someone whos cheap and wants to try to get it for 21...or less? That's what you call greed?

I'd like to point something out:
http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=5577
You have THREE jobs at 75. My MULE has more than you, you really have no idea how taxing inventory can get.

How many jobs I have leveled is irrelevant. I understand having a cramped inventory sucks but you also are the one choose to level how ever many jobs you did when most likely all you need is like 3-5 to fulfill every role in the game. SE's shitty designed HNMs and systems leads to loot whoring and greed. Just because it's a shitty system doesn't make you any less of a loot whore.

[NynJa]

How many jobs I have leveled is irrelevant. I understand having a cramped inventory sucks but you also are the one choose to level how ever many jobs you did when most likely all you need is like 3-5 to fulfill every role in the game. SE's shitty designed HNMs and systems leads to loot whoring and greed. Just because it's a shitty system doesn't make you any less of a loot whore.

shit is situational...but you're right, I'm a loot whore, sure. I guess you're one of those mooches who only show up runs that benefit you and fuckeroff when they dont. But I'm the loot whore

You remind me of someone I had the pleasure of sharing LS with years back. Guy kept complaining how Limbus was shit and a waste of time, and the gear sucked, etc etc...back when soap was 50k a pop. I wound up getting full homam and 2 pieces of nashira (I think it was trashed since at the time there was some dumbfuck rule you cant lot both) before I decided theres no point me doing limbus with the LS since I cant get anything else, and might as well just farm coins to sell. Finally, the guy wants to start doing limbus, when its down to 15k for soap, and he's bitching at me for not doing the event, I'm not supporting the LS by ditching the event, how I simply got my shit and ran off. Yet...he was happily afking at kings every day (not doing any other events btw) while I was paying 50k/soap for my Limbus gear.

Yup, you remind me of him...But its ok cause I'm the loot whore

[orson]

shit is situational...but you're right, I'm a loot whore, sure. I guess you're one of those mooches who only show up runs that benefit you and fuckeroff when they dont. But I'm the loot whore

You remind me of someone I had the pleasure of sharing LS with years back. Guy kept complaining how Limbus was shit and a waste of time, and the gear sucked, etc etc...back when soap was 50k a pop. I wound up getting full homam and 2 pieces of nashira (I think it was trashed since at the time there was some dumbfuck rule you cant lot both) before I decided theres no point me doing limbus with the LS since I cant get anything else, and might as well just farm coins to sell. Finally, the guy wants to start doing limbus, when its down to 15k for soap, and he's bitching at me for not doing the event, I'm not supporting the LS by ditching the event, how I simply got my shit and ran off. Yet...he was happily afking at kings every day (not doing any other events btw) while I was paying 50k/soap for my Limbus gear.

Yup, you remind me of him...But its ok cause I'm the loot whore

Man you are a fucking loser, you don't know shit, I've been in the same LS for almost 6 years and for the last 2 years I've helped organize and run a big chunk of our events. We've done everything from gods to PW and I've put in a shit load of effort into this game. Unlike you though I actually think about firstly my friends and secondly gear (or in your case your inventory.) You're apparently such a douchebag though that all you look at is the bottomline of who has the most time to play as opposed to anything else. Nobodies saying hand out gear to useless fuckwads who don't put in any work but to believe that just because you have a bit more time to log in and tap buttons for 3-4 hrs gives you the right to cockblock your friends makes you sound like a greedy fuck no matter the spin you put on it.

At least you're admitting you're a loot whore that's the first step in recovery... but seriously just as bad as lazy fucks that never show to events and whine about why they're broke ingame and have no gear are, greedy people who put getting their gear over everything else are just as bad.

[NynJa]

Do you re-read the shit you write, or are you just trying to insult me from every direction. First I'm a loot whore, now you're calling me broke as fuck with no gear. Pick one and stick with it?

Cockblock? Every LS I've been has used an actual point system, not "lets pick my favorites and give them dibs on everything". So I'm repeating it again because you're blind or something, if I'm a loot whore because I want to drop 100 points on an item to put it on my mule or lot secondary for storage and no one wants to use anywhere near that value of pointage on it, then so be it, by your definition, I'm a loot whore. But dont fucking tell me the cheapskates who either dont have points, or are too cheap to use them arent greedy. Points are a value of dedication, a clear cut measure of what you've put in, theres no grey lines, theres no questioning it, its just there clear as day. You do an event, you get points, you do 10 events, you get more points. Points are equivalent to money. Hey, RL analogy coming up...inb4 "lol RL analogy this is a game kill yourself" etc etc.

You own a Ferrari dealership. I've purchased a Ferrari already from you. You get a super imported 2013 (yes, 2013!) model, and Myself and McCheapo are licking our chops to get it. I've got 500 grand ready to give it to you, CASH, to take it off your lot, McCheapo has 50 grand. Are you going to say "welllll you already own a Ferrari, so I'll take McCheapo's money instead, its not fair to cockblock him such a great car ^_^".

No, No, No, if you say otherwise you're a fucking liar. Points are meant to be moved, just like money is meant to be circulated. And frankly, lotting competition is a good thing, it forces people to not gamble hoping to get shit cheap. Dont understand? If you know you're the only one going to lot something, why jump on it right away?

[Eldelphia]

We base it on the player, not the character(s) in Dynamis. We have one guy who has 3 characters but they're on the same account. He just prefers to level his jobs on different races and has a couple on each. His flexibility is great and his points get spent where he wants them because there's no real conflict. He doesn't have the same jobs on more than one character.

Sky drops are easy to get for alts; you farm the pop, we pop it, you choose where the desired item goes... with the exception of Kirin.

We don't generally have dual boxers. In fact I'm one of the few who can. Priority goes to 'main' players as long as their attendance is reasonable. I'm not going to take high demand items from anyone else. We don't dual box people into Dynamis because frankly, I'd rather have people who can play well and 90% of dual boxers do a 'meh' job. I've known some in the past do ok both in my own shells and in others I've belonged to, but they never perform as well as two individuals playing.

I think for us, there's rarely a time when we *need* anyone to dual box. Everyone has a ton of jobs. If something comes up and no one's bothered about it, then sure, let the alt/mule have it rather than waste it but most of the time an alt is just that.

I wouldn't reward dual boxing as a regular thing because it hasn't been make or break for us and I'd rather see others with a decent contribution to the shell get their shinies first.

[orson]

Do you re-read the shit you write, or are you just trying to insult me from every direction. First I'm a loot whore, now you're calling me broke as fuck with no gear. Pick one and stick with it?

What? I guess maybe the sentence was TL. I was trying to get across that people (in general) who don't put effort in and still expect gear are annoying but greedy people who put their marginal upgrades over their friends are just as bad. With most groups those are the 2 worse kinds of people to deal with.

The funny part is I never even directly called you a loot whore until you directly started comparing me to the lazy asshat you had the pleasure of knowing and using self proclamation to take ownership of the title (even if you were being facetious.) I was originally commenting on what I figured was a hypothetical situation A.K.A. your Heffer scenario. Then you got your panties in a bunch. Seems like you were getting pretty defensive, imo.

Cockblock? Every LS I've been has used an actual point system, not "lets pick my favorites and give them dibs on everything". So I'm repeating it again because you're blind or something, if I'm a loot whore because I want to drop 100 points on an item to put it on my mule or lot secondary for storage and no one wants to use anywhere near that value of pointage on it, then so be it, by your definition, I'm a loot whore. But dont fucking tell me the cheapskates who either dont have points, or are too cheap to use them arent greedy. Points are a value of dedication, a clear cut measure of what you've put in, theres no grey lines, theres no questioning it, its just there clear as day. You do an event, you get points, you do 10 events, you get more points. Points are equivalent to money. Hey, RL analogy coming up...inb4 "lol RL analogy this is a game kill yourself" etc etc.

You own a Ferrari dealership. I've purchased a Ferrari already from you. You get a super imported 2013 (yes, 2013!) model, and Myself and McCheapo are licking our chops to get it. I've got 500 grand ready to give it to you, CASH, to take it off your lot, McCheapo has 50 grand. Are you going to say "welllll you already own a Ferrari, so I'll take McCheapo's money instead, its not fair to cockblock him such a great car ^_^".

No, No, No, if you say otherwise you're a fucking liar. Points are meant to be moved, just like money is meant to be circulated. And frankly, lotting competition is a good thing, it forces people to not gamble hoping to get shit cheap. Dont understand? If you know you're the only one going to lot something, why jump on it right away?

Ya pretty much the bolded. Not even close to the same thing as what we're discussing. Also now you're pulling out this "OOOOOH Well I have 1000s of points and this asshole only has 100 so he's a lazy douche and doesn't deserve it because I was on more than him." I would agree if someone has put in vastly more work then the next person obviously you shouldn't bend over backwards for the lazy twat. As you said shit's situational but we're looking at 2 different scenarios and most likely we'll agree to disagree because I think point systems have there flaws just like any other system.

Let me give you the other side to that scenario. You and another guy are in a similar situation except reversed. You have the exact amount of points as the guy that already has the item and you end up missing 1 dynamis due to a family emergency that sets you back 1 point. You're telling me that you wouldn't think your supposed friend saying too bad, so sad I deserve it more wouldn't irk you? Yes all items are just toys and have minor impact overall on what most people can or can't do in this game but if all you care about is increasing your gear level over other people without any concern for them or their situation then it does come off as self centered.

If you can agree there should be exceptions to situations like this and there are situations where it's better to actually help people get the major improvements they need over the minor ones you need then I take it back about you being greedy. I obviously don't know anything about you either and how you handle things but in a game like this most of us can afford being a bit socialist.

[fishstix]

Like everything in the game, it's situational and should be taken on a case by case basis. I love to 2box and used to feel naked when only playing 1, when I played more intensely. If you feel the need to get gear for the 2nd char, yet you're not allowed to, simply stop bringing it to events. Go farm some NM during the event, craft or something lol.

[Shenrien]

Point Systems flawed? The only flaw in them is that GimpyMcGimp who coasts through events while amassing points is going to get good gear that they probably shouldnt get. That's about it, theres no discussion over who should be getting gear, over any favortism, etc etc.

This is why I like priority tier systems.

have a group of items from certain events that are highly sought after, and people can be placed down on what priority they want to for the items.

first come first serve at that point, people who are on the list first get the item over others, and the list just goes on, that way there is no need to have people bitch and cry about points.

then with the items that are not so highly sought after you just have people slash for them and then select who you want to get the item or have several people lot on it then, makes things go by a lot faster and if people are going to bitch, tell them they are to old to have a hissy fit about shit that isn't even real and it's not going to be the last of that item to ever drop.