Report: Bush Administration experimented on detainees

[Elvis]

Wrong. And same for you Olo.

We tortured to get info and then collected data on that torture. We did not torture to experiment.

We conducted warfare on Japan and Germany to win the war and then collected data on that warfare. We did not conduct warfare on either to experiment.

At least you accept water-boarding is torture.

However, in the very next paragraph you make that same FALSE analogy.

torture =/= warfare

You're trying to equate the two and sound really dumb as a result.

Hey, the military people I work for are going to do X which leads the prisoner (also a 'test subject' after the fact) to experience pain, suffering and potentially - death. I will collect data on his experiences as a medical professional in spite of the fact that what he's going through is TORTURE. I will record case after case.

Experiment:

A test under controlled conditions that is made to demonstrate a known truth, examine the validity of a hypothesis, or determine the efficacy of something previously untried.

From the article, l2read:

The report found that the C.I.A.’s practice of waterboarding of high-value detainees offered perhaps the most direct evidence that medical professionals were helping to refine interrogation techniques. The report cites agency guidelines for health professionals involved in interrogations requiring that they document each time a detainee was waterboarded, how long each waterboarding session lasted, how much water was applied, exactly how the water was applied and expelled, whether the detainees’ breathing passages were filled, and how each detainee looked between treatments.

The article goes on to say that due to the data compiled by the medical professionals, the techniques of water-boarding were refined.

So like I said, not in the same context as the Japanese and Unit 731, but what we did was torture and we had the assistance of doctors/etc. helping us torture more 'humanely'.

[Elvis]

Why don't we begin water-boarding people who commit crimes here?

You know, so they give us vital info. What about water-boarding Gonzales or Rice, since whenever they're brought before the Official Whatever Committee, they always say 'they can't say'.

EDIT:

Oh and if we know a criminal is somewhere, why not air strike his neighborhood? The price is worth it.

[Elvis]

Oh and, about Unit 731 -

The US military got wind of what the Japanese had been working on and immediately grasped two points: They would never be able to conduct that type of human experimentation at home. And that the research had to be kept from the Russians at all costs.

So the US cut the Japanese officers a deal: Immunity from prosecution for war crimes in return for experimental data.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...nt/1796044.stm

[Cleverness]

So how long till someone blames this on Obama? It's bound to happen.

[Elvis]

It's weird, Swamp, you're basically saying it's not 'experimenting' because we're not 'torturing to experiment'. I understand what you mean there actually.

But in the same token, it's not really torture is it? Since we're doing it to get vital info!

And it's not really a massacre of women and children, if we got a terrorist chieftain in the mix too.

It's not really anything bad at all, cuz our intentions are as pure and white as snow.

[Pirian]

It's not really terrorism, because we're killing the infidels poisoning the world

wait wait, wrong side

[Kuya]

I have to say, it's pretty damn funny that while the Obama administration is probably not going to do anything about this, his administration sure is going for gold in prosecuting the whistleblowers who actually care about transparency and accountability to the people.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/

Federal officials have arrested an Army intelligence analyst who boasted of giving classified U.S. combat video and hundreds of thousands of classified State Department records to whistleblower site Wikileaks, Wired.com has learned.

SPC Bradley Manning, 22, of Potomac, Maryland, was stationed at Forward Operating Base Hammer, 40 miles east of Baghdad, where he was arrested nearly two weeks ago by the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division. A family member says he’s being held in custody in Kuwait, and has not been formally charged.

Manning was turned in late last month by a former computer hacker with whom he spoke online. In the course of their chats, Manning took credit for leaking a headline-making video of a helicopter attack that Wikileaks posted online in April. The video showed a deadly 2007 U.S. helicopter air strike in Baghdad that claimed the lives of several innocent civilians.

I guess if Obama is not going to be transparent, he might as well prosecute those who try to impose transperency.

[ghanima]

I have to say, it's pretty damn funny that while the Obama administration is probably not going to do anything about this, his administration sure is going for gold in prosecuting the whistleblowers who actually care about transparency and accountability to the people.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/
I guess if Obama is not going to be transparent, he might as well prosecute those who try to impose transperency.

I think Obama was talking about transparency in government processes, not that he would do away with classified information. There's a penalty for leaking classified information (I think it's 10-20 years in prison plus a hefty fine, per instance), if you substitute "he leaked army footage to wikileaks" with "he leaked nuclear weapon plans to North Korea" he'd be charged with treason.

I'm only trying to point out there's a different between government transparency in system and classified information. What he did was still a crime even if his intentions were noble.

Plus, dude was stupid to brag about it AT ALL. Deserves to be caught and prosecuted.

[Kuya]

I am not bothering with you.

[Xno Kappa]

I have to say, it's pretty damn funny that while the Obama administration is probably not going to do anything about this, his administration sure is going for gold in prosecuting the whistleblowers who actually care about transparency and accountability to the people.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/leak/
I guess if Obama is not going to be transparent, he might as well prosecute those who try to impose transperency.

Hmmm. Interesting to see on what they'll charge him with and on what grounds considering the Army has a Whistleblower Protection Program in place.

EDIT: Nevermind, read the rest of it, classified info is classified. A dumbass in MI with a TS clearance should have known. You go through an extensive background check, a federal interview, as well as signing a legally binding document stating you'll protect such information.

[ghanima]

I am not bothering with you.

It's ok, you're not worth my time either.

[Neosutra]

This is so amazingly fucked up. How the hell they thought they could get away with it just astounds me. I hope they are brought to task for it.

If you're interested in academic articles about the problems with "torture lite" (i.e. waterboarding, sounds, restraints, etc.) one of the women I worked with back in AU was writing about the ethical issues associated with it. http://publicreason.net/author/jwolfendale/ has some more info about her work. I recommend also listening to this podcast (or reading the transcript) where she's interviewed. http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/0056.html

That's the best part, they did get away with it. Not a single person got in trouble.