Dorp XXIII: 15M FOR BALTS, ALL BALTS MUST GO

[Neosutra]

Except your melee is doing 2-3k damage every time it casts (every min or 2).

And letting the rdm keep hate when he/she gets it isnt exactly a bad thing. It's a bit challenging to keep shadows up 100% of the time on Sam or Mnk depending on DAs/spells, but on Rdm you shouldnt have a problem what so ever with SS/Aquaveil/Fast Cast/Spell Interupt.

[FailureMidgard]

I don't see how it's feasible to trade hate when a melee's prime source of hate is damage.. which is only available ~7% of the fight. DRK or WAR have obvious alternatives, but meh. And no, I'm on MNK at least twice as often as I'm on RDM, it's just not as practical for abyssea lowman(sans brooder). Could do ok, but once hate gets cemented on RDM they better be on their toes if doing melee+rdm.

Well, few things...first off, my understanding is that melee-curing a mob still generates the same enmity as the damage would have done if it didn't cure it. I could be wrong on this, but afaik BLMs have pulled hate on Lambton when fucking up and landing a late nuke. Am I wrong this? If not (at least a sam) can easily open with enough damage to get a pretty significant headstart.

Past that, it takes ?double damage? while casting. Assuming decent use of meditates/sekkanoki, I don't see a Sam having any serious problems with maintaining hate. Also, ninjutsu ichis are still 80/240, and while they are slow and not amazing, they are an option to use while turned around.

[Thorny]

Too lazy to do hate calculations, just seems like hate would be very shaky using that strategy and killspeed isn't improved at all. If you use enough temp item meds it's actually decreased

Possible if no other options? With Sam, yea. With MNK? Probably not.

A good strategy, ideal, or better than RDMs? No.

I don't think it's so much me having a thing for RDM as other people who don't have it or fail at playing it being butthurt.. for a full group, melee are an excellent way of handling it. Melee can tank practically anything in the game now. Get good melee, whore buffers, collect profit, w.e. I don't understand the crux of an argument for melee that can only do damage 7-8% of the time though.. on top of that, charmed melee will fuck your day up quickly in a duo.

[Neosutra]

The unlucky charm will slow you down. However I've done both a trio (2 rdms and a blm), with Rdms and Blm who dont "suck at their job" (I could cant count the number of Rdms with gear as good as my wife's on one hand, even if I was a high school carpentry teacher), and I've done it with Melee, Rdm, Brd, and the Melee, Rdm, Brd was about twice as fast.

I dont think you understand just how fast this thing melts to melee damage, even if you can only WS/TP every 45 seconds or so.

[Thorny]

The unlucky charm will slow you down. However I've done both a trio (2 rdms and a blm), with Rdms and Blm who dont "suck at their job" (I could cant count the number of Rdms with gear as good as my wife's on one hand, even if I was a high school carpentry teacher), and I've done it with Melee, Rdm, Brd, and the Melee, Rdm, Brd was about twice as fast.

I dont think you understand just how fast this thing melts to melee damage, even if you can only WS/TP every 45 seconds or so.

Gear doesn't really mean much as far as RDM goes.. look at rog or tsuko. You don't need all top tier shit to be good at the job, though obviously it helps. Using full complement of cruor meds I have 2800 mp before initial convert, which gives me another 950. 3750 / 144 = 26 water 2s, or a bit over 15k damage. x2 rdm = kill as fast as you can nuke, whilst giving a total of 416 TP. Mobs won't tp at 100% so you have a max of 3 tp moves, and increased chance of memento mori(mob running between rdms). My original time estimate was off, I got cuffs for all my characters and my girlfriend's before I realized how OP cruor meds are.. should be able to kill in under 10 minutes with only 2 RDM. If Melee + RDM needs a BRD, 3 RDM should be able to kill in under 5 minutes..

[FailureMidgard]

Too lazy to do hate calculations, just seems like hate would be very shaky using that strategy and killspeed isn't improved at all. If you use enough temp item meds it's actually decreased

Possible if no other options? With Sam, yea. With MNK? Probably not.

A good strategy, ideal, or better than RDMs? No.

I don't think it's so much me having a thing for RDM as other people who don't have it or fail at playing it being butthurt.. for a full group, melee are an excellent way of handling it. Melee can tank practically anything in the game now. Get good melee, whore buffers, collect profit, w.e. I don't understand the crux of an argument for melee that can only do damage 7-8% of the time though.. on top of that, charmed melee will fuck your day up quickly in a duo.

The charm is obviously bad in a duo, esp with melee, but I think that's the best argument you have against it (assuming the melee is sam really). In any case, I definitely realize the strength of rdm, and I'm generally ok with duoing anything, and this is kinda off-topic, but I really can't stand soloing, I just get bored playing the game alone. Probably just an odd quirk more than anything.

I'm too lazy to do exact hate calculations, but just something rough rq assuming a lvl 86-87 mob:
CE mod: 1.37, VE mod: 4.1
Assuming base Gekko: 750, base melee hit: 100.
1 Gekko/2.5min, 1 melee swing/30sec:
2*(750+100*5)=2500dmg/150sec
2500*4.1=10250 VE/150sec. VE decay is 60*150=9000
2500*1.37=3425 CE/150sec. CE loss is obviously variable, but if there is indeed hate trading, then really the rdm should lose similar amounts (and more if you feel they will have hate longer. Ya, rdm has better defense, but pain to try to model/etc.

My main point is this - you're beating VE decay kinda. Obviously the model is flawed a bit, and if you Gekko at near full VE, it does nothing, which causes decay a bit worse, but that's still self correcting, so after a couple more WSes, you'll be at full. Also though, that's assuming 1 WS per meditate, not using Sekka, and not counting any TP from melee swings. I think it's pretty safe to assume you can sit at VE cap. CE I think you're ending up positive on still, but it's really hard to show, depends how much you bleed out.

Which goes back to what I said before, afaik you get full enmity for damage that is converted to healing on a mob. So while you're running there you have 300TP+Sekka and meditate up. Show up, WS+SC, melee it for another minute or so, and you're going to have a decent enough headstart on CE that you should cap before the rdm, and your VE will easily cap in that first minute (and hover near cap after). I really don't see hate being much of an issue for a Sam (or drk).


In all this, I'm not arguing it's a huge improvement over rdm+rdm, or even an improvement at all. I just think you're underrating other jobs (rdm/nin+blm/nin would be fine too) by a decent margin. Oh, and if you want to add a 3rd, I'd say a bard (horde lullaby charms, that being the main problem with sam+rdm duo) not a 2nd melee.

Also, what is Tsuko's character currently?! Want to AH stalk!

[Thorny]

I love how you act like you're the only person that gets cruor buffs/meds and low mans mobs, as if everyone else here doesnt have 500k cruor and max out their meds/buffs everytime they enter.

I don't act like I'm the only person who does it. I'm recommending it to everyone, it's very helpful in killing quickly(vital unless you have a shitton of stones stockpiled or exp parties waiting to take you already on stones).

15k damage with all your meds using water2 and covert in about 10 min, or my Sam WSing 7-8 times (minimum) in that 10 min for 2-3k each time..

It only has like 20-25k hp if I remember right. SAM needs the startup cost of one support, and since the sam will be tanking without fast cast, stoneskin, capped recasts, etc, there's a bigger amount of mp output required to sustain damage. It doesn't even take 10 minutes really if the RDM are equally geared, 10 second cast, 3 sec avg for utsu or ss recast, repeat. 25 casts(both rdms cast at once) = 325 seconds, a bit below 5.5 minutes. Never have to redo composure, probably have to recast slow once and paralyze twice. I have yet to see ANY proof that RDM + DD can even win, much less do it in any time comparable to that.

Or hell, if you want to 3 people:

Rdm nuking/DoT/Enfeebling, 2 Sams WSing every time it casts, and dont even need a brd, kills faster than 3 rdms with less TP fed.

Faster? 3 RDM can kill it outright before convert, 15 nukes each, bit over 2 minutes. The only way your setup could even match RDMs spam nuking in killspeed is if you rolled a AM for it's first spell. If it's a fast spell that doesn't let you fit sekkanoki in, you already lost. Killspeed aside, if you honestly think SAM survivability is in any way comparable to RDM on it, you're fucking retarded.

edit: This shouldnt even be an argument. You're giving info on ways to low man manaburn it, I've giving info on ways to meleeburn it.

Have you duoed it? What happens if charm goes off? It lasts nearly a minute, and the melee will at the very least strip your shadows.. seeing as they must have shadows up themselves at all times in case of drain. As RDM/NINs only aoe is diaga, you need to spam single spells on them to sleep them, or kite while getting meleed by a corse significantly faster than yourself. If it casts drain as first spell after a charm, you've pretty much lost already.. and it's melee isn't much better if you're also being hit by your party member. A base guess would be 40-50% mortailty rate caused by charm in a duo. You mentioned trio, after someone asked about duo. There's a very dramatic difference between RDM BRD SAM and RDM SAM.. the former has horde if charm goes off and an extra sorce of cures for the RDM while they get pounded.

[Thorny]

Have you duoed it? What happens if charm goes off? It lasts nearly a minute, and the melee will at the very least strip your shadows.. seeing as they must have shadows up themselves at all times in case of drain. As RDM/NINs only aoe is diaga, you need to spam single spells on them to sleep them, or kite while getting meleed by a corse significantly faster than yourself. If it casts drain as first spell after a charm, you've pretty much lost already.. and it's melee isn't much better if you're also being hit by your party member. A base guess would be 40-50% mortailty rate caused by charm in a duo. You mentioned trio, after someone asked about duo. There's a very dramatic difference between RDM BRD SAM and RDM SAM.. the former has horde if charm goes off and an extra sorce of cures for the RDM while they get pounded.

[oblit]

I don't act like I'm the only person who does it. I'm recommending it to everyone, it's very helpful in killing quickly(vital unless you have a shitton of stones stockpiled or exp parties waiting to take you already on stones).


It only has like 20-25k hp if I remember right. SAM needs the startup cost of one support, and since the sam will be tanking without fast cast, stoneskin, capped recasts, etc, there's a bigger amount of mp output required to sustain damage. It doesn't even take 10 minutes really if the RDM are equally geared, 10 second cast, 3 sec avg for utsu or ss recast, repeat. 25 casts(both rdms cast at once) = 325 seconds, a bit below 5.5 minutes. Never have to redo composure, probably have to recast slow once and paralyze twice. I have yet to see ANY proof that RDM + DD can even win, much less do it in any time comparable to that.


Faster? 3 RDM can kill it outright before convert, 15 nukes each, bit over 2 minutes. The only way your setup could even match RDMs spam nuking in killspeed is if you rolled a AM for it's first spell. If it's a fast spell that doesn't let you fit sekkanoki in, you already lost. Killspeed aside, if you honestly think SAM survivability is in any way comparable to RDM on it, you're fucking retarded.


Have you duoed it? What happens if charm goes off? It lasts nearly a minute, and the melee will at the very least strip your shadows.. seeing as they must have shadows up themselves at all times in case of drain. As RDM/NINs only aoe is diaga, you need to spam single spells on them to sleep them, or kite while getting meleed by a corse significantly faster than yourself. If it casts drain as first spell after a charm, you've pretty much lost already.. and it's melee isn't much better if you're also being hit by your party member. A base guess would be 40-50% mortailty rate caused by charm in a duo. You mentioned trio, after someone asked about duo. There's a very dramatic difference between RDM BRD SAM and RDM SAM.. the former has horde if charm goes off and an extra sorce of cures for the RDM while they get pounded.

I never had problem with hate with SAM/NIN, RDM/WHM and BRD/WHM setup or SAM and RDM. Just use sengkori+sekkanoki+skillchain him at start, because skillchain will deal damage.

You could also deal WS/physical damage when he uses TP moves. Fight last for 3-9 mins with this setup. I don't bother turning away because I only heal it for 10-80 hp, I just save up to 300% tp which doesn;t take long using a 5hit Keitonotachi and unload 2.6k-3.3k WS damage.

It takes a little longer to duo with SAM and RDM, around 8-15 mins.

Charm was never a problem, It's easy to manage even when duoing. it rarely uses tp moves. Because it only get's tp from weaponskills. Meleeing on it doesn't give it tp. Unless you are getting hit a lot. And I have only seen it use charm maybe 3 times after killing this NM 9-10 times.

[Deader2818]

I just wanted an idea on how to low man it >_>

Hey, I did Chukwa with PUP, RDM, RNG and it worked well. Is it the best? Prob not. Did we have fun? Yes.

Thanks for giving me different ways of doing it. Ill try which works best for me.

[Thorny]

I never had problem with hate with SAM/NIN, RDM/WHM and BRD/WHM setup or SAM and RDM. Just use sengkori+sekkanoki+skillchain him at start, because skillchain will deal damage.

You could also deal WS/physical damage when he uses TP moves. Fight last for 3-9 mins with this setup. I don't bother turning away because I only heal it for 10-80 hp, I just save up to 300% tp which doesn;t take long using a 5hit Keitonotachi and unload 2.6k-3.3k WS damage.

It takes a little longer to duo with SAM and RDM, around 8-15 mins.

Charm was never a problem, It's easy to manage even when duoing. it rarely uses tp moves. Because it only get's tp from weaponskills. Meleeing on it doesn't give it tp. Unless you are getting hit a lot. And I have only seen it use charm maybe 3 times after killing this NM 9-10 times.

This is a useful post.

Rdm/nin + Melee/nin works just as well.

Did Mnk/nin + Rdm/nin once and Sam/nin + Rdm/nin another time. Both times were fine. I liked Sam/nin + Rdm a bit more due to having meditate up and being able to WS about every other time he was casting. He's not hard to enfeeble either.

Edit: Woops forgot we had a brd for both of those kills, which obviously helps a lot.

This is not.

See the difference? One gives specifics regarding the fight, including both killspeed and strategy details. One was made up and later admitted to skipping mentioning their brd mule when caught.

I'm still curious how RDM + SAM handles charm if SAM has multiple shadows up, albeit only for knowledge sake since killspeed mentioned is slower than what RDM RDM pulls off anyway. Do you just do stone 1 until shadows gone, or diaga -> grav/bind, or run and facetank corse? I could see all working, just seems like a quick death with zanshin.

You can go back to living in your "everyone has capped RDM and fights mobs where their Pdif and Acc is capped" world. I'll go back to being helpful to those that ask for it.

wahwahwahwahwahwahwahwah, you realize I used the guy's naked attack when we had that argument

yes, i assumed capped accuracy, do you realize how much gear is needed to cap it at 80? Protip: Not much.

[Chojja]

THF and RDM should work fine. I'll try it today.

[fredjanx]

-also
just throwing this out there, but pdif caps might be irrelevant in 2 months

[Michelob]

Well, few things...first off, my understanding is that melee-curing a mob still generates the same enmity as the damage would have done if it didn't cure it. I could be wrong on this, but afaik BLMs have pulled hate on Lambton when fucking up and landing a late nuke. Am I wrong this?

As far as Lambton Worm is concerned, I'm fairly certain that enmity is generated as if it had actually been damaged by the amount it had been healed. I can't remember a time when the thing was healed for 7k+ that the BLM wasn't stormed after and usually killed.

[Neosutra]

Same thing happens on Glavoid as well.

[FailureMidgard]

As far as Lambton Worm is concerned, I'm fairly certain that enmity is generated as if it had actually been damaged by the amount it had been healed. I can't remember a time when the thing was healed for 7k+ that the BLM wasn't stormed after and usually killed.

You're saying it gets the multiplier too? If so, lol, should be even easier to keep hate.

And Thorny, I did do rough math, I really don't see hate being a problem at all, just charms.

[Michelob]

You're saying it gets the multiplier too? If so, lol, should be even easier to keep hate.

And Thorny, I did do rough math, I really don't see hate being a problem at all, just charms.

It's been a while since I've fought it because r0 doesn't do a damn thing anymore besides Einherjar but as far as I remember it atleast gets some sort of multiplier.

Edit: Whether or not the NM in question works the same way, I have no idea.

[DantesTheBannedPLD]

Just trio'd Khalmari 3 times, 1/3 Last fight was rough but went good.. I died due to r0ing on my friends rdm and my self...
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...723_172022.png

[Ros]

When you wants deeds you get capes...
When you want capes you get deeds...

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/4...0723210018.png

[Fievel]

Sad but very, very true.