Random Question Thread XI: You're Wrong

[FailureMidgard]

I like how you wrote that and add math, numbers or evens some basic info as arguments.

TP to mob:
When hit by a melee attack, enemies gain the attacker's Base TP + 3.

Footwork:
Base TP gained while Footwork is active is 13.0 TP per kick.
Treats your base TP as 6.4%, such that mobs receive a base 9.4% per kick.

Subtleblow for MNK on Footwork:
Usu hands 5, BB 5, rajas 5, trait 20 total =35

Store TP for Footwork:
Usu body 6, rajas 5

TP for Footwork:
13*1,11=14,43
100-28=72
14,4x5=72

TP for mob for Footwork:
9,4*0,65=6,11

TP for mob for 450 daley GKT and SAM/war:
(11,5+3)*0,9 (usu hands and rajas) = 13,05

So now point out whats far off?

Sorry, I think I misunderstood some of what you were trying to say. Close enough assuming the sam is /war or drg. Ignoring the fact that Sam/nin gets SB traits. In any case, we all agree footwork is far and away the least TP fed in the game. A Sam/nin still beats out a normal h2h monk for TP fed.

[Thorny]

I agree monk has gained probably the most of any DD with 75>80. I disagree that monk was the best DD at 75, even assuming accuracy cap, but that's neither here nor there. Furthermore, I'm unsure why Thorny thinks MNKs are best for zerging...they require less support to zerg for sure, but a DW warrior is better in every way (including effective haste if there's a dancer), whereas a monk's 2hr actually does ?nothing at all? in a full buff zerg setting.

DW warrior only applies with ridill or OA3 axe, but it is a very strong option as well. They're still less powerful throughout the rest of a dynamis run. The primary reason I'm advocating MNK zerg is because of the minimal amount of support and good error correction available with them. A mnk can reasonably live through practically anything, including oblivion smash. If someone d/cs, chainstun screws up really bad, or something else forces you to wipe.. your DNCed mnks can still zerg without needing their 2hrs up. Having 2 RDM/DRK and 2 BRD gives you a second shot at any zerg if you're using MNKs instead of DRKs or other varied DD.

An argument for WAR would be centered around maximum damage for a zerg(in which case you'd move all the way to DRK I would assume), whereas an argument for MNK favors reliability. In this day and age, I don't think anyone is worried about putting out enough damage in the time period for ein bosses, CoP/DL, baha2, etc.. it's all about reliability. This is why I feel MNK is the best zerg option.

Anyway, monk has definitely moved up, but I'm skeptical it's quite as far-and-away better as Thorny is making it out to be.

Outright damage? Not really far and away better, no, but it's still got enough of a lead for a nonrelic MNK to be competitive or ahead of a relic SAM, DRK, RNG, WAR. The main bonus comes, again, from reliability. Adding 400 hp onto a DD is going to lessen your death rate drastically in einherjar, dynamis, etc. If you're positive you won't be one shotted, counterstanced MNKs take drastically less damage than hassoed lesser DD while putting out (slightly) more.

[Rehn]

What's an average time for a solo krabkatoa? I tried it for the first time today in e.ron and took a little over 1.5 hours with screwups and junk.

Forgot to add this is as 80 RDM/NIN

[Thorny]

Bad luck with stoneskin can drastically alter it, but should be 40-50 minute range at 80 with a good nuking and good convert set /sch.

[mdkuser]

monk has always been the leading DD at 75, despite the fact people used bandwagon sam, accuracy and attack difference were inexistant once full usukane or better is achieved: a full merited h2H, full usukane monk has as much accuracy and attack ( if not more) than a full merited SAM for example ( up to 415 with max haste). It is also the jobs that feeds the least TP ( mathed by pchan a while back) thanks to penance. its pretty obvious if you compare a chariot fight with 2 sam then 2 mnks; with 2 mnks your healers fall asleep (and you still kill faster).

For instance at 75 a seigan sam/war could not do more than 75-80% of a mnk/nin, in terms of damage, and with hasso sam would barely beat monk/nin, let alone mnk/war. SAM ( and other DDs bar war) was really pathetic versus mnk, due to shitty weaponskill and melee dmg, unless fighting HNMs of course. MNK is also the best DD tank thanks to counterstance.

[FailureMidgard]

DW warrior only applies with ridill or OA3 axe, but it is a very strong option as well. They're still less powerful throughout the rest of a dynamis run. The primary reason I'm advocating MNK zerg is because of the minimal amount of support and good error correction available with them. A mnk can reasonably live through practically anything, including oblivion smash. If someone d/cs, chainstun screws up really bad, or something else forces you to wipe.. your DNCed mnks can still zerg without needing their 2hrs up. Having 2 RDM/DRK and 2 BRD gives you a second shot at any zerg if you're using MNKs instead of DRKs or other varied DD.

An argument for WAR would be centered around maximum damage for a zerg(in which case you'd move all the way to DRK I would assume), whereas an argument for MNK favors reliability. In this day and age, I don't think anyone is worried about putting out enough damage in the time period for ein bosses, CoP/DL, baha2, etc.. it's all about reliability. This is why I feel MNK is the best zerg option.


Outright damage? Not really far and away better, no, but it's still got enough of a lead for a nonrelic MNK to be competitive or ahead of a relic SAM, DRK, RNG, WAR. The main bonus comes, again, from reliability. Adding 400 hp onto a DD is going to lessen your death rate drastically in einherjar, dynamis, etc. If you're positive you won't be one shotted, counterstanced MNKs take drastically less damage than hassoed lesser DD while putting out (slightly) more.

You're assuming that other DD die or something a lot, which is really odd to me. I can see the benefit of extra HP if something goes wrong on DL and the like, but since getting my Amano (and granted I stopped playing actively for ~1.5 months), I've died once in Ein. I don't see this huge problem of DDs surviving. Past that, I'm literally the only one taking any melee damage of note in there, to the point other DDs wouldn't even need a healer outside of haste (and the majority of these were at 75) for the entire run. I think you're also severely underestimating relics, but it's hard to give any solid proof for this at all. Just based on everything I've seen, I don't see a nonrelic anything being able to parse even remotely close to me.

[Mazmaz]

Do you still get 0.9acc and 1att from weapon skill after level cap was raised?

[Thorny]

You're assuming that other DD die or something a lot, which is really odd to me. I can see the benefit of extra HP if something goes wrong on DL and the like, but since getting my Amano (and granted I stopped playing actively for ~1.5 months), I've died once in Ein. I don't see this huge problem of DDs surviving. Past that, I'm literally the only one taking any melee damage of note in there, to the point other DDs wouldn't even need a healer outside of haste (and the majority of these were at 75) for the entire run. I think you're also severely underestimating relics, but it's hard to give any solid proof for this at all. Just based on everything I've seen, I don't see a nonrelic anything being able to parse even remotely close to me.

Depends on #s, if you're bringing 36 to ein it's not an issue. 12-18, mobs will get damage, especially the 6 mob families.

It doesn't have to be a massive benefit to be a benefit, I never once said other DD are useless, but if you can do more damage while having noticably more survivability then why not? I think people are blowing the MNK thing out of proportion, they're a minor increase in damage and noticable increase in survivability, neither of which are needed. It's just very helpful if you're shortmanned and technically best.

As far as parses, that's way more playstyle than anything else. If you play aggressively(as I'm sure you do, since you're good), you're getting a much larger bonus than the relic itself is giving you. Easy enough to calculate your average damage per second in a sample situation, which is what I base MNK being competitive on.

[FailureMidgard]

Depends on #s, if you're bringing 36 to ein it's not an issue. 12-18, mobs will get damage, especially the 6 mob families.

It doesn't have to be a massive benefit to be a benefit, I never once said other DD are useless, but if you can do more damage while having noticably more survivability then why not? I think people are blowing the MNK thing out of proportion, they're a minor increase in damage and noticable increase in survivability, neither of which are needed. It's just very helpful if you're shortmanned and technically best.

Haven't done Ein with 36 in a very long time, was generally 3 DD parties and .5-1 blm/cc party. Regularly had a mule as a rdm/drk to CSS. And I'm not saying mobs won't get damage in, I took a ton. Our last T3, I took 9000 damage. 2 other relics took 1900 each. Everyone else was in triple digits in damage taken (and a lot of that was Circle of Flames). Looks like we had 7 DDs total.

Anyway, I agree there is a benefit to extra HP, as I said, and I believe it's perhaps even enough to always go monk over other DDs, assuming a similar gear level, but I still think you are very much underrating relics.

[Edit in response to yours: I agree with aggressiveness being a large part of any parse, but even past that, my average melee hit is roughly equal to a dragoon's average hit on piercing vulnerable mobs, while being 55 base delay faster, simply due to relic procs. I've also always felt Amano is one of the strongest relics out there, simply due to how much better Kaiten is than Gekko in Ein-esque situations (My average Kaiten was also beating out well geared Dragoon's average Drakesbane vs piercing vulnerable mobs). Anyway, I've also parsed versus some of the same players back with a Hagun, and since getting Amano, and some of them I know were very aggressive/good players. Again, I believe monk is very strong now, I believe it can outparse any other non-relic DD at 80, but I really don't see a non-relic monk coming anywhere close to a decent relic DD, and I think Sam gains the most from upgrading to a relic, followed by Drk, and I think these amounts are a lot more than you're giving credit for.]

[Shenrien]

anyone got some info on how to pop Picolaton, nothing on BG-Wiki and otherwiki hardly makes any sense, I've currently got a THF at E-8 while I'm down at D-11/E-11, supposedly where the PH is, been about an hour and a halfish of killing and nothing so far, curious if I'm being run on a wild goose chase with this..

[Darkmagi]

Just a lotto pop and can take a long ass time to pop, but honestly I would just skip it and semi gimp it til you get to Askar/Aurum/Perle/homam/ares/etc. Really not worth the camp time.

[Fereydoon]

Does anyone have an icon set where utsu and favor/anything new isn't borked?

I was fine with utsu having a battlefield icon but favor makes me Q_Q.

[rog]

Does anyone have an icon set where utsu and favor/anything new isn't borked?

I was fine with utsu having a battlefield icon but favor makes me Q_Q.

http://www.filefront.com/16842989/57.DAT/

[Thorny]

Sam gains the most from upgrading to a relic, followed by Drk, and I think these amounts are a lot more than you're giving credit for.]

I mathed out destroyers MNK vs fully magianed apoc DRK a while ago on here and MNK came out 1.8% behind without DNC, ~4.5% ahead with DNC, using ideal gear for DRK(and assuming full minute of souleater used with 3 WS) and relatively conservative gear for MNK(full usu but only destroyers, didn't include counter damage, etc). I don't think I specifically did it for SAM, but the last time I did an event with an (admittedly average) amano sam, they were only doing about 85% of the damage of my favorite MNK. Obviously that's anecdotal and subject to all problems wiht parsing though, if you estimate triple procrate maybe I'll fully math out MNK vs amano when I get a chance.

[requim]

So earlier this weekend KParser stopped working, so I reinstalled it and everything seemed to be going fine.

Now I can't seem to log into my main in whitegate, keeps crashing out. I can log in on my laptop, log in to a mule in Bastok, but everytime I try to get on my main no dice.

Anyone have any ideas what might be up? Reinstalled windower and uninstalled kparser, though still isn't working.

[FailureMidgard]

I mathed out destroyers MNK vs fully magianed apoc DRK a while ago on here and MNK came out 1.8% behind without DNC, ~4.5% ahead with DNC, using ideal gear for DRK(and assuming full minute of souleater used with 3 WS) and relatively conservative gear for MNK(full usu but only destroyers, didn't include counter damage, etc). I don't think I specifically did it for SAM, but the last time I did an event with an (admittedly average) amano sam, they were only doing about 85% of the damage of my favorite MNK. Obviously that's anecdotal and subject to all problems wiht parsing though, if you estimate triple procrate maybe I'll fully math out MNK vs amano when I get a chance.

Am I missing something? How does a dnc put the mnk further ahead? Both are capped haste? [Edit: Drk has more haste cause of hasso, shouldn't the dnc put the apoc further ahead?]

Anyway, just something really quick, you're free to go further, I'm lazy and not sure on proper pDIF to use and such...

Mnk Delay: 348
Sam Delay: 437

Assuming both at capped haste, double march and haste, that puts the mnk at 60% haste and the sam at 70% haste.

Adjusted Mnk Delay: 139.2
Adjusted Sam Delay: 131.1
w/ Dnc:
Dnc Adjusted Mnk Delay: 104.4
Dnc Adjusted Sam Delay: 87.4

Base damage:
Amano: 98 (STR 72+5+34+11=122, fSTR of 14) for 112 D
Magian h2h: +33 (324 skill; 324*.11+3=38?), (STR 74+5+25=104, fSTR of 10) for 81 D

Assuming a pDIF of 1.0 for now, just to keep it simple:
Amano is 112*1.07*1.25/87.4=1.714 (the 1.25 is assuming a 10% procrate of 2.5x dmg).
Magian h2h is 81*2*1.15/104.4=1.784

This is obviously pre-kicks/berserk/jumps (but does account for a mnk/war as far as DA's go). I'm personally not even sure on the base damage of a kick attack, but assuming it's the exact same as h2h (seems like at the very least it's 33 dmg lower?), you get .15 kicks per 2.15 swings, or 1 kick per 14.33 swings. If it is the same damage, that means it's an increase of 1/14.33 or 6.98%. 1.784*1.0698=1.909.

Anyway, according to most monks, TP phase is what, 65% of your damage? 60? We'll go with 60 for now and give the monk the benefit of the doubt, that's 1.909/.6 = 3.182. Based on my last Ein parse, I had 36.7% melee, 60% WS, and 3.3% jump (though, that was with a cor and no dancer, had sam roll, not sure how a mnk's distribution would look with sam roll, I highly doubt it will go up enough to make it near). 1.714/.367=4.67. (4.67-3.182)/3.182=47% more damage than the monk. Granted, this is really really rough math, but unless I'm missing something, I really gave the monk every advantage I could. The main thing I left out was pDIF (inc. berserk), counters, and jumps. As for pdif/berserk, I think the fact that a Sam is a 2h with +25 acc on weapon means even after berserk, the sam will have a higher average attack value. I -could- be wrong on this, but I don't even have to think about Pizza, and don't need accuracy on gear at all to cap (TP in Strigoi, Thew, etc). Also, I'm actually at 26% gear haste, or a true 25%, so .6 or .4% or whatever higher than the above math is giving credit for. And as for counters, well, I just don't see the monk getting many.

If you want to try to be more detailed than me, be my guest. I've never seen any testing to say for sure what the proc rate is, but 10% is close, may be a bit lower at 1/12. Who knows for sure...

{edit#2, I fail at wiki, the magian h2h is 27 dmg and 51 delay...I just used Spharai80-1 dmg and destroyers delay, lol...so the mnk is actually swinging slower and with less damage than all the math I did, but I'm lazy and still stuck doing my shitty trials}

[rog]

Am I missing something? How does a dnc put the mnk further ahead? Both are capped haste? [Edit: Drk has more haste cause of hasso, shouldn't the dnc put the apoc further ahead?]

Assuming capped gear haste, 35% magic haste, and hasso for drk, that'd be 60% for mnk, and 70% for drk. Adding 10% more would be a 33.3% increase for mnk, and a 50% increase for drk, so yeah, by a fucking huge margin.

edit: Unless he's using haste belt for the drk, then i guess it would.

edit2: Though i doubt he is, because if haste belt was being used, then haste samba would only increase attack rate by ~6% (78.7 to 80% (806->820/1024 to be exact)) whereas mnk would be getting the 33.33%. Even dropping off ~8 haste for more atk/str the difference would be bigger in mnk's favor.

[Cream Soda]

What's a good amount to offer per person for abyssea gnole? gonna have to recruit some ppl, it seems.

[Thorny]

Eh I'm dumb, was looking at mnk vs apoc drk over 2 min zerg(30s kc 90s apoc). Disregard, I need to redo this shit from scratch. I'll probably make a new thread when I get around to it, but seems the only point of interest is how MNK compares to relics since it's pretty easily proven it beats out 'standard' DD.

What's a good amount to offer per person for abyssea gnole? gonna have to recruit some ppl, it seems.

I'd say offer 250k/person and get 6 helpers. 1500k for the boots isn't a bad deal when you consider the stats, and you're more likely to get good players if you offer more gil(not to say bad players wouldn't volunteer, but if you try to cheap out nobody worth a shit is going to want to do it). We did it on 100% full moon using 7 people and won very easily. If you have a pool of top-tier players I'd imagine it could be done with 3-4, but always does fevered pitch 3x in a row and it seems to drastically reduce or reset hate.. so better safe than sorry with pickups. An hour of abyssea with 6 helpers + yourself should easily be able to get in 3 kills or so.

[FailureMidgard]

Eh I'm dumb, was looking at mnk vs apoc drk over 2 min zerg(30s kc 90s apoc). Disregard, I need to redo this shit from scratch. I'll probably make a new thread when I get around to it, but seems the only point of interest is how MNK compares to relics since it's pretty easily proven it beats out 'standard' DD.

Ah. Also, as for mnk vs standard DD, it obviously depends on buffs, but if the 2h can Hasso, and has dnc+cor+brd, I don't think mnk wins on dmg output as cleanly still....but survivability is an obvious upside. Drop the dnc and cor, and ya, mnk is great. Oh, and if you do do it, I'm being told 1/12 is probably a safe relic proc rate.