FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread III: Where's my beta invite?

[Kachi]

Yeah, I can understand why some people wouldn't "get it," but just like many players grow their characters as fighters and mages and try to get the best loot, pretty much the whole point of growing your character as a crafting class is to make money. It's basically like opening your own business within the game economy. A sim game within the game.

If you're not going to charge people for your services, there's no real point to doing it for a large part of the crafting population. Making money is the fun of it.

I'm all for being nice, but I crafted in XI to make large amounts of money. I was generally only "nice" in the sense of giving deals and free work to people I considered friends, and many of my friends were happy to pay me for my work regardless. When I get a random /tell for a synth, I charge. Some people didn't like my terms (e.g., I charged a lot to HQ a high cost item), and they didn't have to have my help. Some people just wanted to exploit me to save money, and I told them where they could stick it.

[bluestar]

if repairing equipment was free and instant, then what would be the point of having durability loss in the first place ?

[Hyan]

Yeah, what the hell now. It's just an opinion, but I want the game to feel like a world where people interact with each other than just a bunch of individuals maybe fighting together once in a while but other than that just doing their own thing without any sort of community aspect.

It's a double edged sword: "Crafters should be more important this time" and "but I don't want them to have any utility, that's so inconvenient, everything should be done by NPC's!" and guess what, we have enough MMO's around that trivialize crafting almost completely because NPC's do everything.

Of course it's harder to make it like this And also make it convenient enough but just let them fucking try before spewing the "If it's not like X I'll so quit!" bullshit. Fuck trying new things, SE is the evil- let's just rehash every fucking feature like in the last 6 years in every MMO and everything will be better, right? Fuck that, Kaylia.

[bluestar]

i meant to comment on this yesterday about the retainer but got sidetracked... anyway

what it possibly could be is that retainers are an npc you can set up to stay in the game for you - like say if i was a miner i could set up a retainer at the blacksmithing/armorer or goldsmithing guilds to sell ores while i was offline or even just so i could go out and do more mining

this would allow for both the sellers and buyers to target their specific needs and not limit you in the same way selling stuff in XI did

then AH would be seperate and more for selling equipment and such

[Hyan]

Some kind of "I want to buy" type feature would be great I think.

Like instead of just seeing what people are selling, you could also check what people want to buy.

[Waraji]

For some reason I'm seeing the Retainer system as some kind of AH-Bazaar integration. Where instead of an AH, its an interconnected system of Player Bazaars, although this way is too loose and accessible. Perhaps this could be some other implementation for Chocobos?

[Ramsey]

They already said that shit wont break and that you don't need to trade them your gear for them to repair it a few months back.

Don't worry about such things. SE's dumb, but they're not THAT dumb.



Now you've got it! That's very different than, "teleport back to town from anywhere." Which is exactly what I said. A feature that was only in the alpha. You go on giving explanations for things that don't need explaining. Sure, you can keep answering questions that arn't being asked, but wouldn't it be awesome if you stuck to the topic?

I fail to see how pointing out that you were spewing miss informed bullshit that made it seem even harder to get back to town to do the thing you were commenting on is failing to stay on topic.

i meant to comment on this yesterday about the retainer but got sidetracked... anyway

what it possibly could be is that retainers are an npc you can set up to stay in the game for you - like say if i was a miner i could set up a retainer at the blacksmithing/armorer or goldsmithing guilds to sell ores while i was offline or even just so i could go out and do more mining

this would allow for both the sellers and buyers to target their specific needs and not limit you in the same way selling stuff in XI did

then AH would be seperate and more for selling equipment and such

It'd be cool if your Retainer was not just your personal vendor but if you're a Discipline of the Hand your "Apprentice" as well, and he or she could do the repairs just like you could. So basically if you left your bazaar in town when you were offline, people who knew you could repair Lv50 epic sword (or whatever) could go find your Retainer and get it repaired at a price you set, incase they can't find a player online. This feature might get a little abusive though....

Personally I would rather just repair at the NPC, hopefully it won't be much more expensive.

Having to stand in a major city shouting for a repair class and getting no reply for hours on end, yea good times ... I think not.

What? Not only am I going to bet if you were in a major city you'd get an instant response to this, I would bet any money there will be crafters hanging around popular Aethryte camps for this exact reason. I know I sure as hell will be. Remember this isn't FFXI, crafting is something they want people to do, and are trying to implement it in a way you can focus on and enjoy crafting as a primary gameplay mechanic. There should be more of us than in FFXI by a long shot, and with higher skill levels.

Now that I've admitted to being someone who wants to focus on crafts, you may think my view is skewed, and maybe it is, but I'll be doing the combat side as well and I'm sure I'll have some stuff I won't be capable of repairing myself. Sometimes you can't see the forest for all of the trees in front of you, this is a game where people have to cooperate and socialize. I'm going to assume the durability system looses durability reasonably slower than WoW, just because everything in this game is slower than WoW (not a bad thing).

So if every now and again you have to make a pit stop back in town to pick up some new guildleves, maybe grab a bite to eat and repair your gear with a Blacksmith friend, why is that such a big deal? It's too bad you can't just interact with a bunch of NPCs to do all of the things you need in the game, like it was some sort of single player game...

[Jinko]

Its like shouting for a teleport. By the time the game is sufficiently developed, Im sure everyone will have dabbled in a few crafts. I mean just look at people with multiple 75 jobs with multiple mules with 100+ crafts on them all.

I'd love to log on to receive 50 tells to fix their gear. Means more cash flow for me.

Well thats fine for you maybe, but I know that I hated being asked for teleports in FF11, and it was one of the most boring ways to make Gil also.

Lets not forget sometimes standing shouting for a teleport and not getting a reply, just because people can, doesn't mean they want to help you.

What? Not only am I going to bet if you were in a major city you'd get an instant response to this

Well I'm glad you are so confident, but I'm not so thats that.

[Hyan]

So let's make it that no one has to rely on anyone ever anymore and that's much better.

I don't think that's such a good second option.

[Lucavi]

Sometimes you can't see the forest for all of the trees in front of you, this is a game where people have to cooperate and socialize. I'm going to assume the durability system looses durability reasonably slower than WoW, just because everything in this game is slower than WoW (not a bad thing).

Perhaps we're looking at different trees in the forest, then. You see a game where people need to cooperate, and I see a game where people understand that, and therefore exploit the fact that others must cooperate with THEM, thus taking advantage of the situation.

I have no problem with needing to rely on others... if everyone was a nice, kind, honest, trustworthy person. What happened with the HNM scene when FFXI was "a game where people have to cooperate and socialize"? What happened with the launch of NA FFXI's crafting scene when people played the "game where people have to cooperate and socialize"?

Human nature splits in many ways - some are out to legitimately help others - others are out to screw everyone else, even their own teammates, for their own goals.

I simply don't want to see another easily-exploited system, or sets of systems, like in FFXI where cheaters dominate and regular folk who simply want to "cooperate and socialize" are essentially screwed. Be it through crafting exploits, botting, or simply cornering the market and squeezing out the little guy, any system that forces me to interact strictly through humans (with their capacity for the most selfish and scathing decisions, usually done under the pretext of "hey, its just a game! Get over it!") is, in my opinion, a flawed one.

[Hyan]

That's why there's gotta be rules in place. If somebody has a monopoly on something, he will surely screw other players. Competition on the other hand is healthy, and brings prices down to a better level.

Implementation is the key. If they let the players do whatever they wish, be it screwing other players because you're the only one providing X or something else, then it will inevitably suck. Make enough restrictions to cut down the bullshit, and you can essentially remove the human greedy factor from play.

[Lucavi]

Were there rules in FFXI, Hyan? Not really. This is the "sequel" to FFXI. We'll see.

[Jinko]

So let's make it that no one has to rely on anyone ever anymore and that's much better.

Why does it need to be black and white ?

Why is there not the option to have both NPC and crafters, the thing is interaction can be great if done correctly, but lets face it SE are ass about face half the time when it comes to implimenting features like these.

When a feature as simple as repairing your weapon becomes such an ordeal that it greatly effects how you spend your time in game, then it will start to drive players away.

Time sinks aren't tolerated anymore, going into town and getting an item repaired at an NPC where you know there is one, and looking for a crafter where there may not be one is a big difference.

TBF though there are plenty of situations where we interact with people in MMO's, last time I checked we played video games to have fun not to emulate every aspect of our lilves.

[Hyan]

So just because things can go wrong, it means nobody should try to make things better?

I don't quite agree with that mindset. We have enough games that just copy each other already without taking any risks aside from "having every NPC with full voice overs!1" "innovation".

[Hyan]

Why does it need to be black and white ?

Why is there not the option to have both NPC and crafters, the thing is interaction can be great if done correctly, but lets face it SE are ass about face half the time when it comes to implimenting features like these.

When a feature as simple as repairing your weapon becomes such an ordeal that it greatly effects how you spend your time in game, then it will start to drive players away.

Time sinks aren't tolerated anymore, going into town and getting an item repaired at an NPC where you know there is one, and looking for a crafter where there may not be one is a big difference.

You are implying that it becomes such an ordeal that it greatly effects how you spend your time in game, but you have no idea aside from experiences from the past that shape your opinion about the whole issue.

Lucavi told me few days ago to stop trying to analyze how XIV's endgame will be when I was concerned that the changes they made would pretty much destroy it, and I'm telling you to do the same now. Just because in your mind this can not work without meaningless complexity doesn't mean that's the way it will end up. Having NPC's is not the only solution, even if you can't think of more.

[Lucavi]

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth, or in my fingers. I simply said "we'll see."

No matter what system is in place, its going to follow Japan's community-oriented mindset of "divided = fail". Typically I don't mind that, its just that within the confines of a game, its far too easy for people to be ten times more assholish than if they were conducting the same activity face-to-face.

No matter what system SE sets up, I simply see it not being "fixed" once people discover how to "break" it. JP warp-glitching their crafts to max wasn't "fixed" until right before NA launch. The HNM system was never "fixed", despite years of drama and exploits. Yes, their future content tried to shy away from "some" of that, but you still had the same problems at fights like Cerb... at least while Cerb actually mattered.

They're welcome to try and design a perfect system from the get-go, but that's impossible. I'd rather them go back and fix shit when it brakes, but based on the history of FFXI, that's probably asking for too much, hence my aversion to even forcing people to have to wipe each other's asses after a shit, instead of being able to wipe their own.

I did tell you to say that, and I'll stand by it here, as well, but unlike with the end-game scene, we -do- have some (limited) information on how this forced-community aspect will affect us.

[Jinko]

Experience is all i have to go on Hyan, I have to admit that so far SE seem to be making FF14 a much easier ride for everyone, but after playing FF11 for so long I can't help but be pesamistic.

Having NPC's is not the only solution, even if you can't think of more.

You're right I will probably learn to fix my own stuff.

[Lucavi]

^ I know the feeling. I want this to be a rousing, smashing success, because I will always love the company that brought me FFT, but I know the Japanese model of business when it comes to things like this, and I'm still worried in my heart of hearts.

[Hyan]

I definitely agree that if the system ends up being bad SE will not be very eager to go back and fix it..

But they definitely also have more experience this time, which in turn makes it very good possibility that while the system may and will not be perfect, it also won't be game-breakingly bad either.

But during the beta, unlike with the endgame system, we actually have a chance to test and submit feedback about this particular feature- and beta is the time when we will see SE actually change the "old" content.

We all have our worries about this game, but I think that's a given either way. Can't really help it.

[nekoshoonen]

i hope there are no npc to fix equipment. More interaction between players = a better mmo