FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread III: Where's my beta invite?

[Kaylia]

I didn't say anything about open world, but yes they are trying to implement crafting and non combat as an alternative play style to combat, this isn't up for debate, it came right out of their own mouths.

And this is the one thing if any that SWG did right. I'm just saying, don't disregard a game just because it was a commercial flop.

Also, I have a strong feeling piety will have nothing to do with crafting, seeing as crafting doesn't raise your physical level, it would be absurdly stupid if you had to allocate stats to be better at crafting.

The reason why I mentioned "open world" is because SWG was centered around role playing a lot more than FFXIV will ever be. They were trying to give you a somewhat realistic job in the universe to add some dept to the community. It was fitting really well with other concept like the user-town, user-entertainment in bar...etc

Sure, crafting in FF is a "non combat job", but you're not part of the open world, it's just another grindfest that doesn't involve fighting, and allow you to make money. With the currents map designs and overall nature of the games, adding something like this would just be weird as hell.


Maybe you're right about piety, but I was under the impression they want you to multiclass as much as you can with the skills system. Anyway, we will see soon...hopefully.

[Hyan]

Sure, crafting in FF is a "non combat job", but you're not part of the open world, it's just another grindfest that doesn't involve fighting, and allow you to make money.

I don't really see why it's different from SWG, but I haven't played it enough to understand it so care to explain? From what I hear crafting in SWG was pretty much a grindfest too, except there was no complexity to the system itself.

[AshTS]

Also, I have a strong feeling piety will have nothing to do with crafting, seeing as crafting doesn't raise your physical level, it would be absurdly stupid if you had to allocate stats to be better at crafting.

See, this is kinda why I didn't understand Luck. If you were maining a DoH job, wouldn't you just crank Luck to the max? Is there a point to anything else as a crafter? DoW/DoM, you can't survive cranking one stat (I would think anyways) but if I was Blacksmithing, it would be all luck all the time.

And if every DoH did this, what would be the point in the stat? A "bonus" for having a high PL?

I suppose it's moot with the removal of Luck as a stat however.

Well, I said this because diety are often associated with thing like fortune. It seems like a stats that could influence crafting results like luck was probably going to be.

But yeah, it will obviously be related directly to the diety, I'm just trying to figure out where the diety could come into play for most jobs.

I'd have to look at the diety list again, some have affinities towards certain jobs, weapons, elements, crafting, etc. But, know that I think about it, that would make Piety kinda a redundant stat with the ability to change deities in some form.

[Kaylia]

I don't really see why it's different from SWG, but I haven't played it enough to understand it so care to explain? From what I hear crafting in SWG was pretty much a grindfest too, except there was no complexity to the system itself.

The keypart is the roleplay elements that FF do not have. FF won't make you feel like an actual tradesman, it's just going to be grinding in a static world. It won't be different from WoW or FFXI in the sense that it's just another skills amongst many that you can cap. In FFXI, you could make a mule dedicated to grinding, FFXIV just made it so you don't actually lose money, and can take it to the max level without any money.

[Hyan]

The keypart is the roleplay elements that FF do not have. FF won't make you feel like an actual tradesman, it's just going to be grinding in a static world.

What did SWG do for the roleplaying element?

[AshTS]

The keypart is the roleplay elements that FF do not have. FF won't make you feel like an actual tradesman, it's just going to be grinding in a static world.

So, even thought SWG may be a less complicated form of crafting that FFXIV, the RP elements makes you feel like you are doing something more immersed?

I don't know about that. I see your point, but I felt very much like an actual tradesman with how crafting worked in the Alpha. From deciding to rush a job with Hasty Hand, right down to deciding just how much Durability I wanted to have left on my new Hammer so I know just how many times I would be able to touch it up a few times going for HQ.

SWG may have been a better RP-type game than FFXIV will be. I wouldn't doubt it with the stories I heard from friends playing. (I never was into SW to want to try to RP in a SW universe) But I don't think that applies to how immersed the crafting part of the game will be. (Overall, OK, but XIV is onto something with crafting)

[Kaylia]

What did SWG do for the roleplaying element?

Have you seen player-made city? Player's market? Entertainer class (no practical use)? They were trying to let the community shape the world as much as they could, which is the opposite of current mmo where you follow a predetermined path until you reach max level. FFXIV is much closer to WoW than open world mmo like Ultima Online or SWG. Basically, in these games, you were tossed in a huge world with a lot of options, but no particular goals (capping your skills is usually the first thing that come to mind, but they werent holding you by the hand).

Read dragonix post on this page for an accurate description of the "crafter life". I couldn't do it better. Basically, a crafter would become a part of the landscape with his house, his harvester machine, and the way he was intereacting with other players. In FFXIV, everything will be mechanical and artificial. You will run to the guildleve counters, spam enter, run to the npc, spam enter, craft your thing, and collect the reward. If there is exchange with other players, it will be a simple formality the same way it is in FFXI and WoW.

[edit]
Again, it's not a bad thing itself. People love grinding, especially when it's easy and rewarding. I was just saying earlier the kind of freedom you had in SWG couldn't be added to FFXIV, because it's going against the game design itself.

So, even thought SWG may be a less complicated form of crafting that FFXIV, the RP elements makes you feel like you are doing something more immersed?

SWG crafting system was much more complex than FFXIV imo (not that complexity is always a good thing). The crafting itself might have a few more button presses, but the way communication were down, the way you were changing the landscape made it much more immersive than it would be recents mmo.

SWG may have been a better RP-type game than FFXIV will be. I wouldn't doubt it with the stories I heard from friends playing. (I never was into SW to want to try to RP in a SW universe) But I don't think that applies to how immersed the crafting part of the game will be. (Overall, OK, but XIV is onto something with crafting)

We will see in the retail version, but I've the feeling many players will level a crafting class, and in the end, no one will feel like a special snowflake. It will be a conveniance to have one for sure, it might even be fun to level (compared to XI at least), but it will just be one of the many thing you will grind to the max level.

[Hyan]

Have you seen player-made city? Player's market? Entertainer class (no actual use)? They were trying to let the community shape the world as much as they could, which is the opposite of current mmo. FFXIV is much closer to WoW than any open world mmo like Ultima Online or SWG. Basically, in these games, you were tossed in a huge world with a lot of options, but no particular goals (capping your skills is usually the first thing that come to mind, but they werent holding you by the hand).

Read dragonix post on this page for an accurate description of the "crafter life". I couldn't do it better. Basically, a crafter would become a part of the landscape with his house, his harvester machine, and the way he was intereacting with other players. In FFXIV, everything will be mechanical and artificial. You will run to the guildleve counters, spam enter, run to the npc, spam enter, craft your thing, and collect the reward. If there is exchange with other players, it will be a simple formality the same way it is in FFXI and WoW.

I see, but dragonix doesn't really make it sound impossible that this wouldn't be the case in XIV as well (aside from the harvester machine). Guildleves will most likely help the crafter to start off, but I doubt that alone will be enough in the long run. Who really knows how valuable a career crafter will become, if it demands as much time and dedication as taking up a combat class would.

Well, in the end the thing I disagree with is that XIV's crafting is ultimately more interactive and feels more thought out than a little minigame on top of the core game (which is the case in WoW and XI). Thus to say that it will end up just like those two earlier systems and not like in SWG is pretty much jumping to conclusions too soon, IMO.

Like with many (most) of the things you've said on this forum, basically. I agree that we won't see the kind of 'immersion' from the crafting and gathering as in SWG, and it's not a bad thing per se, but to say it's impossible that it could end up more like SWG and less like WoW/XI is more of an opinion than a fact.

[Jinko]

Also many would argue that the huge time investment required to get anything done in XI was a poor game mechanic of having to compete for content.

Holds his hand up.

[hollowtek]

3d is awesome.

[Kaylia]

I see, but dragonix doesn't really make it sound impossible that this wouldn't be the case in XIV as well (aside from the harvester machine). Guildleves will most likely help the crafter to start off, but I doubt that alone will be enough in the long run. Who really knows how valuable a career crafter will become, if it demands as much time and dedication as taking up a combat class would.

Well, in the end the thing I disagree with is that XIV's crafting is ultimately more interactive and feels more thought out than a little minigame on top of the core game (which is the case in WoW and XI). Thus to say that it will end up just like those two earlier systems and not like in SWG is pretty much jumping to conclusions too soon, IMO.

Like with many (most) of the things you've said on this forum, basically. I agree that we won't see the kind of 'immersion' from the crafting and gathering as in SWG, and it's not a bad thing per se, but to say it's impossible that it could end up more like SWG and less like WoW/XI is more of an opinion than a fact.

It won't. The games already revolve around PvE, and the whole economy will be based on it. There will be miscellaneous items, but essentially, you will be crafting weapon/armors/expandable used by others classes (and probably yourself since I'm sure everyone will end up leveling others classes). Nothing in FFXIV looks remotely like SWG. I don't see how they could pull such a twist so late in the development.

Even if you go out of town to harvest, come back to craft and put your shit in retainers, it will just be one form of grinding since the whole player community aspect is gone. The focus is simply too differents in both games.


Shit, if I say SWG was closer to SecondLife than FFXIV, do you still want FFXIV to be like SWG?

[Zelduh]

I bet they'll keep luck as a hidden stat and there'll be rumors about items increasing item drops (rabbit's foot, 4-lead bud, etc.) along with moonphase/direction/day etc.

[Hyan]

It won't. The games already revolve around PvE, and the whole economy will be based on it. There will be miscellaneous items, but essentially, you will be crafting weapon/armors/expandable used by others classes (and probably yourself since I'm sure everyone will end up leveling others classes). Nothing in FFXIV looks remotely like SWG. I don't see how they could pull such a twist so late in the development.

Well, what I basically mean is, that like in SWG, the player has a choice to be a crafter or gatherer if that's what he wants to do, unlike in WoW and XI where you practically have to play a combat class and crafting or gathering is just a side activity. You can't really succeed as a crafter before actually playing a combat job first. In the sense, the crafting in these games has been trivialized.

If in SWG you wanted to be a crafter, you could be. If you wanted to be a gatherer, you could be. That's the link I see between the two games. XIV is still a themepark while SWG was a sandbox, but it's not as much of a black-and-white situation as it is in XI. You have ultimately more freedom as to what to do in the game, although it's not in similar scope as in SWG.

IMO sandboxes are doomed to fail anyway, but I think there's some good concepts that could be brought to the normal themepark model too and make it richer that way.

[Alderaan]

I don't see a haste% or crit% stat, so perhaps those are hidden or handled differently?

[Kaylia]

I bet they'll keep luck as a hidden stat and there'll be rumors about items increasing item drops (rabbit's foot, 4-lead bud, etc.) along with moonphase/direction/day etc.

That kind of shit will appears even if there is none. RNG do that to people.

Well, what I basically mean is, that like in SWG, the player has a choice to be a crafter or gatherer if that's what he wants to do, unlike in WoW and XI where you practically have to play a combat class and crafting or gathering is just a side activity. You can't really succeed as a crafter before actually playing a combat job first. In the sense, the crafting in these games has been trivialized.

If in SWG you wanted to be a crafter, you could be. If you wanted to be a gatherer, you could be. That's the link I see between the two games. XIV is still a themepark while SWG was a sandbox, but it's not as much of a black-and-white situation as it is in XI. You have ultimately more freedom as to what to do in the game, although it's not in similar scope as in SWG.

IMO sandboxes are doomed to fail anyway, but I think there's some good concepts that could be brought to the normal themepark model too and make it richer that way.

If that's what you mean, then yeah, but it's mostly because they made it so you don't need money. So far, I feel it similar to FFXI, except you have to do a "job change" before crafting, and in the end, I don't think it will be much different (especially if it doesnt raise your physical stats)


I dont think you will be able to complete the story mission as a crafter (since there is fighting involved), and because they put the emphasis on the story, you will probably miss out on many things without a Disciples of War classes leveled. I don't know, they will need to do a lot more before I admit the game can be played entirely as a crafter. So far, it's just a self contained job or something.

[edit]
And yeah, sandbox fails (ghosts town were awesome in SWG...that was a sad sight). The new mmo models is always going to works better, even if the old one make me nostalgic.

I don't see a haste% or crit% stat, so perhaps those are hidden or handled differently?

I hope they will make it so you know which gears is better this time at least. In the last few years, sidegrade were getting ridiculous in FFXI.

[Hyan]

I dont think you will be able to complete the story mission as a crafter (since there is fighting involved), and because they put the emphasis on the story, you will probably miss out on many things without a Disciples of War classes leveled. I don't know, they will need to do a lot more before I admit the game can be played entirely as a crafter. So far, it's just a self contained job or something.

I agree. Implementation is the key.

I hope they will make it so you know which gears is better this time at least. In the last few years, sidegrade were getting ridiculous in FFXI.

Less uber items for lower level would do wonders IMO. Some of the <Rotz shit they implemented is just.. ugh, what were they thinking?

They should never let Sundi create an item again at the very least.

[Kaylia]

If leveling is as easy as it is in WoW (it is so far), it doesnt really matter. Just equip the prettier stuff when 2 items look equals and you will do fine. For endgame however, when you spend weeks getting gears, I want to know what I'm getting into (grinding downgrade is never fun).

[Hyan]

Yep. But it's also easier to balance endgame rewards when low level equipment doesn't have stats like it was meant for endgame rather than lvl33, lol.

[Dro Smoke]

Ok so I was bored and looking at DoL/H classes on the site and its looking like they're going to be able to fight along side DoW/M classes.

The miner role description says, "In addition to the unexcelled prowess at throwing rocks, miners also use their skills the debilitate enemies with mineral composition ... miners are always able to put their skills to use in the field or in dungeons..."

Tanners seem like they might be the trap class (i always wondered why no traps in xi) and botanists use a one handed ax.

Edit: Another thought came to me since you'd want to limit their role in parties so people actually play the DoW/M classes the DoL/H classes combat abilities might cost some resources. So a miner would be able to debuff but he'd have to sacrifice the mineral that corresponds with that debuff and as you gain levels the cost of those resources declines.

[Lucavi]

Yep. But it's also easier to balance endgame rewards when low level equipment doesn't have stats like it was meant for endgame rather than lvl33, lol.

Then why did FFXI have such a hard time with it? The only "high level" early-game stuff out there was pcharm and okote, and those had around a "whopping" +10 to a stat.

FFXI's end-game gears (especially early on) where a mess. You had completely useless AF2 (considered as end-game as anything else, coming from an end-game event, Dynamis), and on the flipside, you had freakin Osode/Haidate/Maneater/Juggy.