FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread III: Where's my beta invite?

[Elcura]

Yeah, chess lacks depth because it doesn't test your reflexes. Cut out the bullshit.

Also, you play MMO's so you like oversimplified gameplay, yay I guess?

Because lots of MMOs test your mental capacity and require you to think ahead one or more moves at a time. Oh wait, they don't.

[Alderaan]

I assume we'd have learned by now that horrible drop rates and terrible itemization does not equate to hardcore. Of course it all depends on the importance SE places on gear this time.

[Elcura]

I assume we'd have learned by now that horrible drop rates and terrible itemization does not equate to hardcore.

It makes you a hardcore masochist.

[Lucavi]

Thanks for the connection explanation.



Yeah, chess lacks depth because it doesn't test your reflexes. Cut out the bullshit.

Also, you play MMO's so you like oversimplified gameplay, yay I guess?

I see your point, but two counterpoints:

1) FFXI is not like Chess. Don't flatter yourself. Slow does not equal chess - chess is deep and thought-provoking. FFXI was rng, nin, and /nin, kiting, botting, rinse, repeat. Major difference.

2) FFXI was oversimplified. The only true "complexity" came before people started abusing utsusemi when trying to find ways to stay alive as tanks during unbalanced boss fights, and the (unintentional, mind you!) system of having 35 pieces of individual gear that becomes swapped in for every other spell cast.

[Hyan]

I see your point, but two counterpoints:

1) FFXI is not like Chess. Don't flatter yourself. Slow does not equal chess - chess is deep and thought-provoking. FFXI was rng, nin, and /nin, kiting, botting, rinse, repeat. Major difference.

Hell no. I'm simply saying that there is potential and the mindset that only twitch based gameplay can have depth is pretty lame. I want to see an MMO that plays like chess (or at least a mix of the two), whether it be XIV or something else in the future. Variety, please :D.

Because lots of MMOs test your mental capacity and require you to think ahead one or more moves at a time. Oh wait, they don't.

Yeah, it hasn't been done before, so it can never be done and nobody should try to do it. Get the fuck out.

[Lucavi]

I don't know how much potential there is anyway, and that goes toward any MMO. MMOs at their core are about making money through repeated monthly payments, and are designed to keep people playing for as long as possible through the use of repetition and trickle-down rewards.

I don't think you can have depth when you have the level of repetition that MMOs encompass, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the community aspect is the only determiner of depth, which would mean that nearly ALL MMOs contain "depth", in that regard.

I dunno how "deep" FFXIV is, but for now, its fun, and I know my personal fun will come from a mixture of trying everything out (just like with any game) and hanging out with my old friends. I can do that in any MMO out there, but that's also why I don't slap the "depth" tag on some MMOs and not others.

Edit: If I quit down the road, it won't be because of a lack of "depth", I can assure you. It'll be because I realized after awhile that SE hasn't learned, and that will stem either from gross job imbalances, botting, an over-reliance on sketchy game mechanics (UTSUSEMI~!!) or a combination of the three.

I never once considered stopping giving SE my money for FFXI because of things like plot.

[100percentile]

Square ensures us that there’ll be no ‘ultimate loot’ layout, so people should be inclined to pick clothing they like rather than the one same suit of armour that performs the best.

I liked this bit from this preview: http://www.rpgsite.net/articles/160/...-hands-on.html

I hope they follow through with that.

[qpoiuwer]

I gotta say from what little mining I tried, I had no idea what I was doing. It's hard to analyze it when the mechanics are so weird. And will each land job have different mechanics unlike crafters that most likely share the same concept?

I guess at least when it comes to mining and logging, the mechanics are the same way, but fishing and uhh herding? I've no idea.

Mining is a hot/cold minigame. It's easy once you figure that out. Quarrying is just like mining in FFXI, though your tools can't break. Fishing I wouldn't be surprised if the system was very similar to FFXI. That was pretty interactive.

For people worried about easy high level HQ stuff, keep in mind if you try to synthesize anything equal to or above your level, there is a pretty high chance you're going to fail. Your best bet when attempting a difficult synthesis is either Hasty Hands or spamming Rapid Synthesis, neither of which raise your focus. Hasty Hands actually reduces focus. On top of that, it would be really, really difficult to get all +3 items to use as base materials.

[Elcura]

Yeah, it hasn't been done before, so it can never be done and nobody should try to do it. Get the fuck out.

Wow, are you really this stupid? Suddenly, FFXIV turned into some deep, tactical game where you have to out think the enemy monsters and plan ahead 5 moves otherwise you lose the game!

Yeah, c'mon.

[Hyan]

Wow, are you really this stupid? Suddenly, FFXIV turned into some deep, tactical game where you have to out think the enemy monsters and plan ahead 5 moves otherwise you lose the game!

Yeah, c'mon.

You have no idea what I'm even talking about.

Just shut up already.

Well with the latency issue, you certainly would have the -time- to out-think the enemy.

So let's use it to our advantage, rather than make it a disadvantage, ya?

[Lucavi]

Well with the latency issue, you certainly would have the -time- to out-think the enemy.

[Elcura]

You have no idea what I'm even talking about.

Just shut up already.

Well, we are in a FFXIV forum, I thought I'd bring it back to that.

But I'm sure your dream MMO will come out someday right? Right? Just for you.

[Hyan]

Well, we are in a FFXIV forum, I thought I'd bring it back to that.

Yes, the game that is less tactical than chess but can still be more tactical than twitch based MMO's. And if this is the case, the game suddenly lacks depth because tactical gameplay will always be inferior to reflex based gameplay because that's the way it is currently in MMO's (lol).

But yes, keep thinking I'm saying XIV = chess if it makes you feel better.

[Elcura]

Yes, the game that is less tactical than chess but can still be more tactical than twitch based MMO's. And if this is the case, the game suddenly lacks depth because tactical gameplay will always be inferior to reflex based gameplay because that's the way it is currently in MMO's (lol).

But yes, keep thinking I'm saying XIV = chess if it makes you feel better.

The fact you compared the two says it all. Tactical games are simple by design, because they rely on what you and your opponent are thinking, and how you manipulate the very simple mechanics. The depth is what the player creates, not what the game offers (two simple minded people are going to play a simple game).

So yes, tactical gameplay will be inferior for the most part, which is not saying its worse (unless you're trying to round peg square hole the concept into current MMOs) if you like that sort of thing.

[Coyohma]

The "Modem speed " is your maximum bandwidth, basically, the amount of information that can leave your pc. The ping is the time it takes for your signal to reach the servers. It's different.

The delay was most likely around ~150-200ms for NA, since the network can't possibly be much faster. Because you get the information 0.15 seconds late, and your answer is received another 0.15s later, it end up doing a big difference over someone who live right next to the server.


If FFXIV is never testing your reflex, its going to lose so depth again...but hey, you guys like oversimplified gameplay so that's a plus? right?

Do we have an idea as to where the XIV servers are, or are planned to be, exactly? Has no one asked about regional servers, despite all the interviews?

Edit - Is it imaginable that you could have a server in Japan linked to a server in NA, so that half the playerbase won't be half a second late.. But that they can still play with eachother?

Fuck, I'm not moving to Japan just to have better XIV response times..

[Hyan]

The depth is what the player creates, not what the game offers (two simple minded people are going to play a simple game).

I don't know if I can fully agree with that.

The game also gets more complex as your opponents 'skill' increases. In that sense, the depth also comes from the possibilities the game offers, but you also need a worthy opponent to get most out of it. It can be as deep as the human mind (or AI) allows.

I think the same could be said of twitch based games too, to be honest. By design, they are not that complex. They simply rely on your and your opponents reflexes, and how well you can control them.

[Lucavi]

Yes, the game that is less tactical than chess but can still be more tactical than twitch based MMO's. And if this is the case, the game suddenly lacks depth because tactical gameplay will always be inferior to reflex based gameplay because that's the way it is currently in MMO's (lol).

But yes, keep thinking I'm saying XIV = chess if it makes you feel better.

Why do you keep saying that FFXIV is more tactical than a twitch-based MMO? Hell, FFXIV modified its battle style FROM these twitch-based MMOs, which, by the way, the sweeping majority of current and new-age MMOs have also done and will continue to do.

You either think that SE made the switch (and by switch, I really mean they went halfway, as they still retain their sluggish stare-fest between mob and character in between attacks) because they felt that their old system was ineffective at pleasing the modern MMORPG gamer or they felt that it was ineffective at performing actual combat, but its one way or the other.

I'd like to agree with you, but you're basically calling SE out for "conforming" to the new standards of MMORPGs, which I don't see as a bad thing. SE wants to make money too, you know - I don't think you make a sequel to anything just hoping to land the same number of subscriptions: SE wants a bigger piece of the pie, and you get that piece by adding in new features and streamlining your product to attract a wider audience.

As for whether I feel that SE is actually succeeding thus far I won't comment on, but I can at least understand where they're coming from.

[Gokulo]

Do we have an idea as to where the XIV servers are, or are planned to be, exactly? Has no one asked about regional servers, despite all the interviews?

Fuck, I'm not moving to Japan just to have better XIV response times..

No regional servers again. Situation will be the same as in FFXI...

[Elcura]

But the game itself will always remain simple, that doesn't change, the players do. There's also the fact that AI is limited, especially in this type of environment or game, and will not soon reach the depth and complexity a human mind can achieve (which I guess is why people find PvP so thrilling).

Twitch games both can change, the mechanics can get deeper, offer new levels of complexity (stuff like attack and evade can be attack and evade/parry/block/use skill), which affect how players react. Things are added or changed in the game, which can evolve far past its starting point, while the player can remain the same if they wish (though not always the case).

This isn't to say you can't do this with tactical gameplay, but there's a point where it become too much, it becomes overkill. I doubt this is something most people will enjoy, which is why one type works better than the other.

[Hyan]

It can be Lucavi, I am still not saying it is. I am also not saying that it would be completely tactical- the game has twitch elements as we have already noticed.

I'm still strictly arguing against Kaylia's earlier statement which I feel did not only target XIV but MMO's specifically. XIV is just a potential candidate although I do not personally think it will shift the scale that much.

And yes, Elcura, the AI is the limiting factor. We are seeing improvements, fortunately, but no real AI as of yet.