FFXIV Random Speculation/Question thread III: Where's my beta invite?

[Calemero]

That sucks, will that be changed in beta/public release?

I mean we all have these fancys graphic cards now and it seems such a waste, I'm sure most games on the PS3 run at 60fps so we should see an increase right? I would be more than happy with that but no cap at all for the PC is a must imo.

weeks behind.

[omegaB]

I played the alpha and honestly minus the lag, it was pretty entertaining, and yeah you were generally thinking tactically, i wouldnt say strategically though. by this i mean, (long explanation of a battle incoming skip if you dont care.)

Spoiler: show

for example. when i fight a crab, i know thats its slow, and easy to dodge its ws, but the ws themselves are fairly powerful, i also know that ill be relying on hitting it many times and dodging a lot, it also has a different animation for its two major WS in beta i noticed, so that comes into play. Since commiting to animation usually means i wont be able to dodge, i have to decide whether to go all out with hits, or try to pick my moments and attack when there was an opening. tactically i usually went with an early chakra so that the timer might be finished if i needed it again in the same fight, i saved bloodbath for a wild strike boosted WS because its dmg based, and that was usually number two, inbetween is cure from thaumaturge, because it takes longer to cast, and puts me in danger for longer. offensively i was basically going with concussive blow because, while seismic did more dmg, the accuracy down effect of concussive was vital for my survival against this heavy hitting mob. If all else failed i have the final brilliant tactic of run like the wind! the level i was when fighting it, it was a high risk fight, i did it to test my limits and for a challenge, i could probably have been killing rats for longer, but that bored me. hole point of this explanation is in that fight there were lots of decisions, and ways to deal with it, it was a fairly tactical and complex fight in was pretty entertaining, so yeah im not too worried about battle in the solo level anyhow.

Ok basically the complexity of fight is there, the entertainment is there, its not chess, but theres definite planning and thought that actually varies from mob to mob, and build to build. the fact is though, people are still going to gravitate towards the easier fights, people are going to take whatever blueprint people come up with for these fights and basically make themselves bots, and 99% of the people dont want AI, fact is they could write a very challenging AI but people in MMOs want to kill mobs in the least amount of annoyance, they want least risk for most reward, many of them would rather grind then risk for slightly better reward. why do you think people leveled on crabs in ffxi from like valkurm till 60, surely there were more challenging interesting mobs, there were even easier mobs for faster exp, but people knew and understood crabs, and they werent that dangerous. People choose the grind over the adventure 9/10.



oh yeah total side note RO had battle crafters, and they didnt really suck, they were pretty useful in a lot of fights, im not saying that they will be in this game, but its not that hard to make a crafting class usefull in fights.

[Kachi]

Are you seriously comparing a chess game to a mmo? In MMOs, you're just reacting to shit while anticipating unavoidable script. You can talk about depth when you're asked to foresee your opponent's move far into the future, but that's not the case here and will never be.



Stop saying AI in an argument about clever gameplay. It's a script and that's all there is to it. A script that doesn't pass turing test, and is easily predictable despite the few RNG in it.

No. In chess, you're "just reacting to shit," too. It's a fair comparison, the main difference being that in an MMO, your opponent's advantage relies less on intelligence and more on a power advantage.

Being able to foresee an opponent's moves is not a requisite to depth, merely one possible element. RPGs are about equation construction. You and the opponent are both inputting variables into a complex equation, and the one with the best input wins. Depth comes from the complex ways the equation is capable of being manipulated.

As for calling it AI, it's not technically correct, but let's not be a pedant. People have been referring to enemy behavior as AI since scripts, and as far as the industry goes it's a standard term.

[Rustyhagun]

New Interview with 2 new videos.

http://www.ffxivcore.com/



Another Hiromichi Tanaka Interview

What is the idea behind Final Fantasy XIV? What are you looking to achieve and what will the player experience be like?

There are two unique points to Final Fantasy XIV. The first is ‘guildleve’, a system that allows people to get rewards or learn certain skills in a short time, like 30 minutes. So even if you are a solid player or part of a smaller group you can still manage your time very efficiently and level up your character any way you like. We also have the armoury system, which allows players to change class by holding different equipment, so this allows more flexibility to players. They can learn abilities during this process and by combining different abilities you can customise and create your character. Also, because it’s Final Fantasy, you can expect a huge storyline.


From the mission I played it was difficult to get a handle on the size of the world as we were fighting in a cave setting. How expansive is the in-game world?

So what we have in the beta version is 20 per cent of the actual game content, so it’s like 5 kilometres across.


It was an unexpected pleasure to play the game in 3D and I understand that’s just an experiment. What do you find exciting about 3D from a game designer’s perspective and why was it important to try that here?

Because it’s an MMO we feel it’s very important to be ‘in the game’ and 3D really adds that aspect to your gaming experience. We believe it’s very suitable for MMOs. It feels like this year is a 3D year for every company in the industry so we thought we’d try it out and experiment to see how it goes.


Can you tell us more about the different character classes and how they relate to Final Fantasy games that we already know?

This time there are four different categories; Disciples of War, Disciples of Magic, Disciples of Land and Disciples of Hand. Within each are many different classes. By changing your equipment you can customise your character, so there are several characters in the game. By learning different abilities you can make your own class and actually this time, we purposely decided not to use job names we used in previous Final Fantasy titles, so you really have to make sure you combine the exact skills you need to become say, a white mage in the future. So it really is up to you how you develop your character.


You mentioned before an epic storyline running throughout the entire game. That’s quite difficult to do in an MMO because you’re either going on a secondary mission or, - the way Warcraft does it – is to have the story going on around the player, rather than through the player. I wanted to see how you’ve made the player feel very much a part of that storyline and to still give them a sense of freedom?

The main idea is the same as the package titles of the Final Fantasy series. NPCs will be the key trigger of the game, so by talking to NPCs they will give you the storyline and you will experience it in this way. The key points of the Final Fantasy XIV storyline are that you will be experiencing what happened in the past. By doing that you will discover the secrets of the world. If it’s a package title, sometimes by following the story you can’t do anything else, you just have to keep following the story. But because it’s an MMO, you can stop the story at certain points when you like and try out a different quest. So you have much more freedom and also by trying the quests that might help you experience the storyline, the character will feel a part of the main story. We managed to do that as we have a lot of experience from Final Fantasy XI so we have the know-how to do that.


This is the second time the Final Fantasy series has gone into the online MMO space. How do you feel about the MMO genre as a whole and because, to an extent, it’s younger than RPGs, do you feel that it’s still coming of age? Do you feel there are a lot of places for it still to go, or has it reached a point where it’s maturing?

Final Fantasy XI has been out for eight years now, when you think about how long the new game has been in development, it’s been about ten years now. My experience in the games industry has been about 27 years, so about a third of my life in the games industry has been spent on online titles. So I believe that MMOs are much more established now, however, it will evolve in the future, it will keep on changing as Final Fantasy XI did. Thanks to version updates, the game can change drastically, so there are a lot of possibilities for change.


What’s the business model? Is it going to be subscription based?

It’s going to be a 30 days subscription model and for the price we are currently unable to confirm, but we should be announcing details shortly.


When I pick up a new MMO and I really like it, I pretty much play it to the exclusivity of every other game in my collection and that ends up being the only game I play. I was wondering if there has been any resistance at all from platform holders like Sony, because obviously if you bring out something like Final Fantasy XIV, let’s say a million people play it and they don’t want to play anything else, how does this affect the relationship with the platform holder?

That’s a very good point and also a concern. With the PS3, you will have to log in to PSN to enjoy the game so that’s an aspect we ask for.


In terms of where the MMO space can go. Do you feel we could ever see a Final Fantasy MMO on handhelds? Could that work?

Yes I believe so. It’s definitely possible. Both DS and PSP both have networks so it’s definitely possible, but The CPU of these mobile consoles are much lower spec when compared to home consoles or PC so that could be the aspect that causes difficulty when you want to transfer a console MMO to handheld. If you want to make one custom built for the technology, this is more possible.

[Kaylia]

No. In chess, you're "just reacting to shit," too. It's a fair comparison, the main difference being that in an MMO, your opponent's advantage relies less on intelligence and more on a power advantage.

Being able to foresee an opponent's moves is not a requisite to depth, merely one possible element. RPGs are about equation construction. You and the opponent are both inputting variables into a complex equation, and the one with the best input wins. Depth comes from the complex ways the equation is capable of being manipulated.

As for calling it AI, it's not technically correct, but let's not be a pedant. People have been referring to enemy behavior as AI since scripts, and as far as the industry goes it's a standard term.

You can pretend you're making smart decisions because of the complex underlying mechanics and formula, but the best choice usually jump in your face, and when it does not, your decision has little impact.

I don't care if people call it AI or script, but when people start thinking mmo require "smart" thinking because the monster has a so called "AI" that consist of a short script, it's stupid. Monster's AI =/= smart gameplay.

[edit]
It's not that there is never a smart decision to take (when you drag a monster away to buy time for example), but it's still rare, and usually isn't part of the default gameplay. That kind of situation only appears when shit hit the fan.

[Lucavi]

Pretty good questions at the end of that interview. So FFXIV will be all about discovering the past... sounds like there's going to be a lot of the past, given all of these different ages they've listed.

I'm very excited, I just hope there's another Ark Angels-type plot/fight. I love going up against representations of myself.

[Kachi]

You can pretend you're making smart decisions because of the complex underlying mechanics and formula, but the best choice usually jump in your face, and when it does not, your decision has little impact.

I don't care if people call it AI or script, but when people start thinking mmo require "smart" thinking because the monster has a so called "AI" that consist of a short script, it's stupid. Monster's AI =/= smart gameplay.

[edit]
It's not that there is never a smart decision to take (when you drag a monster away to buy time for example), but it's still rare, and usually isn't part of the default gameplay. That kind of situation only appears when shit hit the fan.

Well generally because time is a factor, it's not about making smart decisions because doing so is critical to success, but making the optimal decisions to improve efficiency, and that does involve tactical applications. It's only in the high end, "boss" battles that success hinges on decision making, and that's just the way it's designed.

Whether or not the best choice flies in your face is a factor of the depth of gameplay. It's not an inevitability by any stretch, as demonstrated by many games developed by none other than SE.

[Hyan]

Well generally because time is a factor, it's not about making smart decisions because doing so is critical to success, but making the optimal decisions to improve efficiency, and that does involve tactical applications. It's only in the high end, "boss" battles that success hinges on decision making, and that's just the way it's designed.

That reminds me of something like Salvage. You're not forced to make smart decisions, but you'll do much better if you do. The complexity doesn't come only from combat, but having to choose when you think you can proceed with limited time and restricted abilities.

It's easy to see the difference between a 'good' group and a 'bad' group because bad group can maybe do one NM and boss, while good group can do everything there is to do and thus be rewarded for it by getting more chances of gear dropping.

[Kaylia]

Well generally because time is a factor, it's not about making smart decisions because doing so is critical to success, but making the optimal decisions to improve efficiency, and that does involve tactical applications. It's only in the high end, "boss" battles that success hinges on decision making, and that's just the way it's designed.

Time is obviously a factor, that's why I was talking about latency in the first place. If you give players less reaction time, it become and issue. If you give players too long, anyone can take the right decision.

I agree it only applies to high end gameplay, but that kind of skill check is still needed. I'm not expecting anything else but pure mindless grinding while leveling. It's the same in every mmo, and ffxiv won't be the exception.

[ScootSeraph]

Wow, the alpha is 1/5th of the entire game? Considering there are no changes in scenery and there is one dungeon, that is pretty disappointing. It seems much smaller then Vana'diel, even at FFXI's release.

[Gokulo]

Wow, the alpha is 1/5th of the entire game? Considering there are no changes in scenery and there is one dungeon, that is pretty disappointing. It seems much smaller then Vana'diel, even at FFXI's release.

They did say that it will be smaller this time.

[Hyan]

Wow, the alpha is 1/5th of the entire game? Considering there are no changes in scenery and there is one dungeon, that is pretty disappointing. It seems much smaller then Vana'diel, even at FFXI's release.

Was JP release really that large? I don't think even northlands existed back then.

There are supposedly 10 regions that are like La Noscea, but I doubt we'll have access to them all right at retail. Sounds plenty for the vanilla.

[Kachi]

Time is obviously a factor, that's why I was talking about latency in the first place. If you give players less reaction time, it become and issue. If you give players too long, anyone can take the right decision.

I agree it only applies to high end gameplay, but that kind of skill check is still needed. I'm not expecting anything else but pure mindless grinding while leveling. It's the same in every mmo, and ffxiv won't be the exception.

See, but even XI didn't need to be mindless grinding for xp. All they had to do was remove the xp cap and make xp scale to difficulty. And if they had, the game would have been so much better. If those IT++++ fights actually gave fair experience, then players would actually challenge themselves, but instead players eventually learned to target mobs for efficiency. So I don't think mindless grinding while leveling is any kind of inevitability. I think XI got close but missed the mark.

Wow, the alpha is 1/5th of the entire game? Considering there are no changes in scenery and there is one dungeon, that is pretty disappointing. It seems much smaller then Vana'diel, even at FFXI's release.

I dunno, it seems pretty huge to me. The seamlessnes of XIV compared to the bottlenecked zones of XI feels much larger. Yes, it's fairly homogeneous, but that's the kind of realism you can expect from this team's environment design. No telling how much will be added with expansions either.

[bluefan]

Was it 1/5th? Thought it was 1/10th. The map certainly indicates 1/10th.

http://www.zam.com/Im/Image/166872.jpg

Alpha was Limsa Lominsa, and it's surrounding. Not its entirety. At least from what I can tell.

[Hyan]

It's hard to say for certain. I think the devs are comparing it to two things; the size of the world and the amount of content. It could be 10 and 20 percent respectively, or the opposite.

Considering they're probably throwing these numbers out of a hat in an interview situation, we shouldn't put too much emphasis to it.

EDIT: In other news, Tanaka seems to be attending the French Convention "Japan Expo" in Paris on July 3rd. The attendees might get to test the beta.

[omegaB]

They did say that it will be smaller this time.

yeah, they said it will start out smaller than ffxi currently is, but its still bigger than ffxi was, ffxi started out with 3 major cities and surrounding zonesjuno wasnt finished at release.

basically it was uhhhh bastok, sandoria, windurst n/s gustaberg, e/wronafure, s/w sarutabaruta, valkurm la thiene konchat bubumiru pashow meriphataud saurumongue rolandberry beadeaux davoi oz.

id say if what we had acces to in beta was 10 or 20 % id say its starting off bigger, there was a lot of areas no one explored. could use more dungeons though, i only saw one.

[Loaar]

Wow, the alpha is 1/5th of the entire game? Considering there are no changes in scenery and there is one dungeon, that is pretty disappointing. It seems much smaller then Vana'diel, even at FFXI's release.

He actually said the beta is 1/5 of the game, not the alpha.

Even though they aren't planning to add areas at this stage of testing, its possible the beta version will let us explore the rest of the Limsa surrounds. The alpha had alot of areas locked to testers.

[Kachi]

Right, there seemed to even be a very large portion of the city of Limsa that we couldn't even access, in addition to other parts of La Noscea. Considering we don't even have access to the entirety of that little island, which is itself pretty goddamn big, the size of the world is really one of the least of my concerns for the game.

I'm actually kind of glad that they're restricting the beta to the Limsa area even though I thought they had originally planned to open up most of the world. I would be too tempted to explore it, but that also would have spoiled a lot of the retail version for me.

[Jinko]

Sounds plenty big enough, wouldn't surprise me if they plan to have the first expansion come out within 6 months of retail, similar to Zilarts.

I don't think it really matters how big the world is as long as they provide us with enough to keep busy.

[Shadowcatt]

New Interview with 2 new videos.

http://www.ffxivcore.com/

Appreciate the information, but if you're gonna provide a link, try to link the original website instead of a re-posting of a direct copy/paste from a second website. I can understand if Core provided translation or something of value, but the original story is in English and there was no value-added content provided by Core.

Original Link: http://www.nowgamer.com/features/763...naka-interview