i'm very concerned that FFXIV will be too easy

[superzombie23]

Time does not equal difficulty.

I have to disagree with you there. Time does = difficulty. It takes lots of time to master any craft in real life, and mastering a craft is very difficult. It's pointless if it hardly takes any time. There's no fun in achieving something that doesn't take a long time to get. You won't aspire to become something, if it's so easy to get with little time. In the end, you will feel very rewarded if you actually become the best at what you do.

[Meko]

I have to disagree with you there. Time does = difficulty. It takes lots of time to master any craft in real life, and mastering a craft is very difficult. It's pointless if it hardly takes any time. There's no fun in achieving something that doesn't take a long time to get. You won't aspire to become something, if it's so easy to get with little time. In the end, you will feel very rewarded if you actually become the best at what you do.

Well, the "time" you put in should reward you with something. Trying to craft something for hours on end and spending millions of gil on something and not gaining any skill but rather losing mats is not difficulty, it's tedious and ridiculous.

[omegaB]

I have to disagree with you there. Time does = difficulty. It takes lots of time to master any craft in real life, and mastering a craft is very difficult. It's pointless if it hardly takes any time. There's no fun in achieving something that doesn't take a long time to get. You won't aspire to become something, if it's so easy to get with little time.

time equaling difficulty irl is about, much deeper factors than repetiveness, its about honing skills and building on inspiration, that said theres still usually someone who can do the same thing light years faster than other people, and they can enjoy as much or more than the people who spent years mastering it. but really this is a game, the goal is to balance the work to reward system so that it keeps one coming back without alienating too many or consuming ones life. and at same time to make it enjoyable.

i have spent many hours drawing and learning to be an artist, but its not the time it took that gives it value to me, and i didnt do it solely because i thought it would take a long time, and therefore be a worthwhile thing. And truth be told im better than some people have spent 3x as much time as i have and worse than some who have spent .3 my time doing it. And ill still do it regardless cause its worthwhile in and of itself

[superzombie23]

Well, the "time" you put in should reward you with something. Trying to craft something for hours on end and spending millions of gil on something and not gaining any skill but rather losing mats is not difficulty, it's tedious and ridiculous.

Well that's one hill your just gonna have to push yourself over. And I didn't just mean crafting. I meant leveling, getting gear, etc. If all they do is give out welfare, it should only be to help someone get to end game, not give out currency for real end game gear like a specific MMO out there...

[Kuya]

Why is there talk of aspiring to be something in a video game with the same weight as if we were talking about becoming sucessful movie stars or CEOs?

edit: fuck, now some guy mentioned welfare, dear god it's the libertarians of video games

[superzombie23]

Why is there talk of aspiring to be something in a video game with the same weight as if we were talking about becoming sucessful movie stars or CEOs?

edit: fuck, now some guy mentioned welfare, dear god it's the libertarians of video games

Um well MMOs are a model of real life. If you look at WoW for example, many aspects of it are similar to real life. Guilds are just social networks that help you get what you want. Auction house = economy. You have your bank and money. You have to put yourself out there and apply to guilds sometimes to get an opportunity to get what your "job." If you already have a friend in your guild, it makes it that much easier for you like having a friend connect you to a job IRL. There's nothing wrong with comparing a MMO to real life if you're a serious player.

[Loaf]

I agree with you to some degree grunion.
Although I agree with others that time does not equal difficulty, for me it meant a huge sense of accomplishment when I put in all those hours for something.
Sure, waiting for a party could be annoying, but it made it that much more satisfying when you got into a party with good people and good players.
I'm afraid that FFXIV will be so solo friendly that nobody bothers to xp party anymore, and in my opinion xp parties were one of the defining features of FFXI. In the end, the difference between an mmo and a single player game is the social aspect, so why would I want to play an mmo with no socializing?
Personally, I think FFXI could be a little bit too over the top in time sink, but it looks like FFXIV could be going in the exact opposite direction, and making everything a lot quicker to do.
Despite this, I'll give SE the benefit of the doubt and assume they've planned for all types of players (sure, they've SAID they plan for everyone, but words are only words).

[Kuya]

Um well MMOs are a model of real life. If you look at WoW for example, many aspects of it are similar to real life. Guilds are just social networks that help you get what you want. Auction house = economy. You have your bank and money. You have to put yourself out there and apply to guilds sometimes to get an opportunity to get what your "job." If you already have a friend in your guild, it makes it that much easier for you like having a friend connect you to a job IRL. There's nothing wrong with comparing a MMO to real life if you're a serious player.

There's a difference between comparisons (and the question of whether a comparison is legitimate) and equating two things as having the same moral and rational weight and value.

Wanting to aspire to be the best at whatever in a videogame is an individual goal, but it should never be imposed on everyone else because the purpose of a game is entertainment and people find different things entertaining. And turning a game into the life goal of a few people at the detriment of everyone else is proabably not what a game company wants.

All this to say that taking hours to form parties sucked and i hope it dies with FFXI.

[Gwynplaine]

Hello OP.
Clearly you have never met SquareEnix. The company that would implement a schematic for crossing the street.

[D44kpunk]

kuya is one of those people who doesn't think you should excel at whatever you do, classic example of what you don't want to be in life children.

[Kalisa]

The fact that FFXI has a lot of time sinks in it does not make it hard. What's hard about twiddling your thumbs in Jeuno while you wait for a level 40 NIN or PLD to come online? Are you really so proud that you wasted that many hours of your life that you claim you're more skilled because of it? More patient, perhaps, but definitely not more skilled.

Then you go on to claim that knowing how to type /equip range "Horn +1" involves skill. Or that knowing you can get to Tiamat by mashing Teleport-Mea and running a while involves skill. These things aren't skill. They're raw knowledge. Knowing how to properly apply that knowledge could be called skill, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that knowing the thing that says Elegy+2 should go in your Elegy macro doesn't take that much thought. The people who choose not to are usually just lazy, not less knowledgeable.

If you want to talk about the skill involved in FFXI, you should have focused more on the Hakutaku/Bomb queen examples. Multiple people coordinating and performing their job well for an extended period of time without shit hitting the fan is skill. Or the people who go out and solo crazy things that they shouldn't be able to solo, that's skill. Idling for hours waiting to see {Party}{Do you need it?} and then watching TV while you occasionally check your TP... yeah, no. Not skill. Just patience and tedium.

Also:

kuya is one of those people who doesn't think you should excel at whatever you do, classic example of what you don't want to be in life children.

Cool trolling bro

[Sonomaa]

hey guys, Ive played 1% of the start of the game, I can totally determine that endgame will be easy

[Kuya]

kuya is one of those people who doesn't think you should excel at whatever you do, classic example of what you don't want to be in life children.

Mommy wants me to be the best vid game playa in whole wide world

[Meko]

I think that things like leveling and crafting can all be done in a reasonable amount of time. Being forced to group is one of those things that I used to think was awesome for leveling but spinning around in my mog house for hours on end got really old. While I don't plan on skating through to the end game, I don't want it to be face punching grinding like pre-ToA FFXI was. The idea of leveling is to experience the game world and enjoy your character and learn how to play it. That doesn't have to take 6-8 months to achieve, in my opinion.

[Eaglestrike]

And now lets talk about time and difficulty vs big dragons!

FFXI model:

2 hours for one attempt at big dragon. A few times people might die, but for the most part it's 2 hours of watching SMN's summon Garuda/Diabolos and use their blood pact every minute. The few times someone dies they get a raise and stand behind the healers until they're unweakened and join the fight later.

Other model already in an MMO:
Big dragon fight takes 10 minutes. Fight requires coordination of a full 25 member, includes void zones spawning underneath people that will kill anyone who does not move within 3s. Majority of raid must enter a portal to kill extra adds. Raid takes constant damage based on if they're attacking or not and healers and DPS need to coordinate to not allow anyone to die. Small dragons come and attack on a timer, you must have the DPS capability to kill a small dragon before a 3rd small dragon comes.

It takes your group 12 attempts to kill this big dragon, taking you 2 hours to do so. In these models both groups have spent 2 hours engaging in a fight.

FFXI model:
You might get some loot. You'll likely get a fire crystal. Fight will "always" take about this long.

Other model:
You get 3 pieces of gear from a list of drops and you get a special mount to fly around on.
Once your group has learned the encounter and can do it efficiently it only takes you 10 minutes to repeat the fight for loot. As in you progress from something being difficult to easy.

Both models have a group taking 2 hours to kill a big dragon, which would you prefer to have in your video game?

[D44kpunk]

should add in the badge aspect and that you actually get a respectable amount of money/gold/gil into model 2

[Hyan]

If you want to talk about 2005 endgame so badly to prove your point, please be sure to include the Kings too.

[omegaB]

does WoW pay you for the endless promotion, i could use some of that cash

[Kalisa]

And let's not forget that in model 1, all these big bad 2hr dragon fights are on world spawn timers and you might go weeks without getting a shot at it.

I mean, when I see someone with a Ridill, I don't think "man that guy must be good," I think "man that guy must have a lot of time on his hands." Because that's all having that Ridill proves that he has: time and a LS that knows how to kill one mob repeatedly.

[Eaglestrike]

should add in the badge aspect and that you actually get a respectable amount of money/gold/gil into model 2

I was attempting to not look terribly bias, just my experiences in the end-game of both games. Though it is pretty clear which one I prefer, because it's just such a better model.

Love how the counter to the two models is talking about WoW dick sucking instead of you know, the pros and cons of the models, which is what the discussion should be about. I didn't mention WoW specifically for this reason. I'd like to actually talk about the topic.