Namas Arrow and Samurai

[Tsuko_Asura]

parsed

lol

[NynJa]

Right, so parsing all of a sudden is bad, ok papertheory go.

I'm not getting into this shit with you, because I know you have the intelligence level of a 5 year old, and about as stubborn as a 14 year old girl, and I just got a warning because of some 50 post douchebag in media so I have to be good for a while

So enjoy his papertheory.

[JigglyJam]

Does that WS frequency factor in jumps or just the haste from earring?

[Narol]

Wasn't it concluded that Brutal, while hurting the chance of 3 attacks per round, still increases the average number of attacks per round?

If you take wiki's 30/50/20 distribution (so 1*0.3 + 2*0.5 + 3*0.2 = 1.9 attacks a round) as accurate, with Brutal processing first, average attacks a round goes up to 2*0.05 + 1.9*0.95 = 1.905 attacks a round.

So it does go up, but it's barely noticeable.

[Ohaigaiz]

papertheory

let me get this straight - unless you've worked and tested first hand on something, like, the fact that yoich is better used with wyvern earring instead of berserk/a higher average of attacks per round, everything you claim is considered 'papertheory'?

the fact that you think you have some type of upper hand on someone stating the best sub job when using yoich just because you have the weapon is ridiculous. perhaps if you were the first and only yoich in this game and no testing on it had been released at all you would be right, but you aren't, so you're not.

[Red Demon Taoist]

Bah. Mistaken edit.

Moved to page2.

Mistaken edit?

I've know this for years, but just reiterating, you're a liar.

Who am I "putting down", exactly?

~4.4% increase in WS frequency vs. 15% increase in attack, which isn't going to be capped during TP or WS(and is going to greatly improve the latter)

dipshit

idiotic dribble

[Tsuko_Asura]

Retarded mistake earlier, damage increase from /DRG was completely off

Adding in the additional haste made available from /DRG, increase in TP damage and WS frequency is ~10%, not 4.4%.

Additionally, the 15% increase in global damage from Berserk is the bare minimum. Realistically its going to amount to ~16-17% increase without capped attack.

[drwaffles]

NynJa is a cancer on this forum's already decomposing body.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Mistaken edit?

I've know this for years, but just reiterating, you're a liar.

What aren't you comprehending? I attempted to quote myself from the page prior, and ended up accidentally deleting the entire thing. It was a mistaken edit.

And my comments in regard to Nynja were a direct result of him being unnecessarily argumentative. Prior to his ignorant personal attacks, I made no such remarks.

[ZhiGaruda]

Right, so parsing all of a sudden is bad, ok papertheory go.

I'm not getting into this shit with you, because I know you have the intelligence level of a 5 year old, and about as stubborn as a 14 year old girl, and I just got a warning because of some 50 post douchebag in media so I have to be good for a while

So enjoy his papertheory.

You do realize, that you can make anything look a certain way via parse, right? We've had this discussion a thousand times, it's really getting old. If something is proven to be better via mathematics, you cannot say it's wrong because of something you have experienced on a parse.

That's so incredibily moronic, I don't even know how you can't understand this.

[Onorgul]

Additionally, the 15% increase in global damage from Berserk is the bare minimum. Realistically its going to amount to ~16-17% increase without capped attack.

What's 17% of zero? Ok, I'm exaggerating, but a D40 weapon has a pretty low fSTR cap and, since I'm only interested in serious HNM situations, I can't see the normal strikes for Soboro Sukehiro adding up to much. Even a standard Hagun setup, which you'll no doubt tediously inform me is rather inferior by today's theorycrafted standards, gets something like 50-60% of its damage from weaponskills, right? Since Soboro Sukehiro, regardless of support job, is a TP gaining weapon rather than a damaging weapon, I really wonder what relevance that "global" damage increase is when 80% (or more?) of your damage is from your weaponskills.

I'm still not really convinced, either. In a low-man situation (your preferred mode of operation, yes?), low Attack is probably a certainty. A Bard might be available, but he's probably better used putting March on a Samurai than Minuet, even with Namas Arrow as a primary source of damage. In a more coordinated situation, something where a larger group is available, a Bard rotation and even a Corsair or two are entirely possible, as are Feint, Angon, and Dia III, though there should be at least Dia II at any fight with a melee present.

With that sheer volume of buffs, in addition to whatever one might derive from food, I will repeat: how much of Berserk are you actually using? That 25% boost to base Attack (it is base, correct?) might effectively only gain you the equivalent of maybe 10% of your base Attack once everything is accounted for. Or maybe it wouldn't. I mean, we don't actually have any stats for even old world HNMs like Fafnir, unless some Japanese player has actually gotten around to doing that, so it seems like your theorycraft is sort of tenuous what with lacking most of its important variables, hence the long-standing use of parses that are, at the end of the day, mostly good at extracting Accuracy but not so great at valuing Attack one way or another.

Seriously, I'm happy to be proved wrong. I prefer to know what's correct. But it does have to proved; Word of God doesn't cut it. So humor me for once, Matt.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Global damage, as in a total increase from both TP damage and WS damage(which accounts for both the low impact of former and the high impact of the latter). I don't see the importance in scrutinizing any further than that, but if that's what you're after, I'll leave it to someone more qualified.

And sure, if you're getting attack buffs out the ass in a 'zerg, you may benefit more from /DRG, but I'm speaking in terms of more realistic situations.

[NynJa]

I parsed /war in Dyna-Tav using defender because I was choosing, and I parsed /drg on Ronfaure bunnies...I mean, really, if I wanted to convince myself ones better than the other, thats what I'd do, I wanted to see what performs better.

[Ashmada]

What's 17% of zero? Ok, I'm exaggerating, but a D40 weapon has a pretty low fSTR cap and, since I'm only interested in serious HNM situations, I can't see the normal strikes for Soboro Sukehiro adding up to much. Even a standard Hagun setup, which you'll no doubt tediously inform me is rather inferior by today's theorycrafted standards, gets something like 50-60% of its damage from weaponskills, right? Since Soboro Sukehiro, regardless of support job, is a TP gaining weapon rather than a damaging weapon, I really wonder what relevance that "global" damage increase is when 80% (or more?) of your damage is from your weaponskills.

This is just bad.
Soboro will provide more melee damage than most GKs.

In a given timeframe, with the same gear (pDIF excluded because neutral) :

Soboro DoT : (40+fSTR)*1.9, fSTR cap=12

Hagun DoT : 75+fSTR, fSTR cap=16
Soboro DoT > Hagun DoT when 76+fSTR*1.9>75+fSTR... i.e. always, as long as fSTR is positive.

If fSTR is between 9 and 15 (common range to be in), only Amano and Totsukano have better DoT than Soboro... so yes, it is very much a "damaging weapon" as you label it.

The argument wasn't sound from the start, though : Berserk will impact both DoT and Namas.

[AoshiZ]

You do realize, that you can make anything look a certain way via parse, right? We've had this discussion a thousand times, it's really getting old. If something is proven to be better via mathematics, you cannot say it's wrong because of something you have experienced on a parse.

That's so incredibily moronic, I don't even know how you can't understand this.

There are opposing arguments that are just as valid. Mathematics can often be missing extraneous factors that have not been assessed in the equation. That is why empirical studies are just as important as mathematics. Parsers are just that, tools for conducting empirical studies. In a controlled environment Parse data can be very powerful.

[AoshiZ]

Does that WS frequency factor in jumps or just the haste from earring?

I don't think they factored jumps into WS frequency.

Jumps are pretty kool with soboro because it can proc on the jump.

Management of jump timers can help give large boosts to get extra WS's out.

Addition: Important factors that people generally overlook in performance is the fact that you aren't engaged on mobs 100% of the time. Things like cooldown timers leverage inbetween fight times where passive abilities such as double attack gain nothing during downtime. Also in continuance with my last post about parsers versus mathematics, this could be a strong argument. Downtime is not assessed in any equation I've seen thus far. Downtime dramatically changes depending on the event in question (Dynamis versus fighting one Mob in a long fight).

[Tsuko_Asura]

There are opposing arguments that are just as valid. Mathematics can often be missing extraneous factors that have not been assessed in the equation. That is why empirical studies are just as important as mathematics. Parsers are just that, tools for conducting empirical studies. In a controlled environment Parse data can be very powerful.

Except that controlled environments that don't involve testing pDIF caps don't exist in this game.

[AoshiZ]

Except that controlled environments that don't involve testing pDIF caps don't exist in this game.

I'd beg to differ. Controlled environments are created by people. Controlled does not mean having all factors 100% under your control. In medical studies there are many factors that cannot be controlled yet many times they still produce strong and valid findings that we all use.

[JnnnnnL]

Basically a KC rng with anni spamming coro > 2x Slug > coro > 2x Slug with a full enmity- set up is better than soboro sam with yoichi for 2 main reasons:

1) Bow's ratk penality at close range (Gun has one too but a lot less important)

2) Sam roll (even w/o a sam in pt) helps KC(10 hits to get to 100TP instead of 12 w/o any stp from gears except rajas in the ws setup) when it only allows the sam to use less stp gears.

So to conclude Sam Yoichi can be an awsome DD with a 4hit+namas set up and full haste(dnc+hasso+march+haste) but it will not be "the best", however in term of pure dmgs a 5hit amano (Note: at 75 this requieres either stp food+stp rings and earrings iirc or stp hands) or a 5hit OAT GTK (from magian trials) might be very good as well but the main advantage of KC rngs and Yoichi Sams is that they will NOT pull hate (requieres a tank that knows how enmity works <.<).

For TP FEED whiners : Most of the mobs you can use KC or yoichi+atk food on do not have annoying/strong tp moves plus the mob will litterally be zerged (especially the last 25%) plus like I said earlier they won't pull hate so only the tank (pld or war/nin) will take Dmgs from non-AoE TP moves. For example in Dyna, have 4-5 DDs like that(with good support brd+cor+dnc) and the mob will die before he can use his 2h, throw a stun in and he'll die before he can move <.<.

If you wonder which race is better, Elvaan is for Yoichi because Elvaans rock, for Anni it depens, it's either mithra or Elvaan but if you can keep up the coro/2slug rate up, then elvaan will be better. At 99 we can espect the WSC Alpha value to change so Elvaan will prolly pull ahead.

[Aero]

Basically a KC rng with anni spamming coro > 2x Slug > coro > 2x Slug with a full enmity- set up is better than soboro sam with yoichi for 2 main reasons:

1) Bow's ratk penality at close range (Gun has one too but a lot less important)

2) Sam roll (even w/o a sam in pt) helps KC(10 hits to get to 100TP instead of 12) when it only allows the sam to use less stp gears.

So to conclude Sam Yoichi can be an awsome DD with a 4hit+namas set up and full haste(dnc+hasso+march+haste) but it will not be "the best", however in term of pure dmgs a 5hit amano (Note: at 75 this requieres either stp food+stp rings and earrings iirc or stp hands) or a 5hit OAT GTK (from magian trials) might be very good as well but the main advantage of KC rngs and Yoichi Sams is that they will NOT pull hate (requieres a tank that knows how enmity works <.<).

For TP FEED whiners : Most of the mobs you can use KC or yoichi+atk food on do not have annoying/strong tp moves plus the mob will litterally be zerged (especially the last 25%) plus like I said earlier they won't pull hate so only the tank (pld or war/nin) will take Dmgs from non-AoE TP moves. For example in Dyna, have 4-5 DDs like that(with good support brd+cor+dnc) and the mob will die before he can use his 2h, throw a stun in and he'll die before he can move <.<.

If you wonder which race is better, Elvaan is for Yoichi because Elvaans rock, for Anni it depens, it's either mithra or Elvaan but if you can keep up the coro/2slug rate up, then elvaan will be better. At 99 we can espect the WSC Alpha value to change so Elvaan will prolly pull ahead.

While I love KC RNGing; Im trying to find a situation where you will have the melee ACC to back a KC up, and yet bother to use Coronach. Even bothering to use -enmity gear(unless you ment aftermath?) confuses me. HNMs will have the EVA to make KC useless, and any mob that is viable to use KC on will be dying fast enough to just spam slug on(Full DD gear).