Namas Arrow and Samurai

[JnnnnnL]

Yes, I meant in case of very low man but if you can spam slugs, of course do it. And with full acc gears + sushi, acc is capped on anything were you can use KC (except dyna Xarca where you would have to use hunter's roll if you don't have a brd rotation).

Note: Even with sushi, the ratk of a rng using Gun is as high as sam's ratk with ratk food (before adding in the ranged penality)

[Aero]

I dunno what your gear looks like, but I only parsed 77.57% ACC with crab sushi against G.Colibri, and the only real ACC gear Im missing is Cuchu mantle and the Fomor NM haste shoes which wouldnt cap me(This is with me prioritizing haste/STP over ACC).

[Onorgul]

This is just bad.
Soboro will provide more melee damage than most GKs.

In a given timeframe, with the same gear (pDIF excluded because neutral) :

Soboro DoT : (40+fSTR)*1.9, fSTR cap=12

Hagun DoT : 75+fSTR, fSTR cap=16
Soboro DoT > Hagun DoT when 76+fSTR*1.9>75+fSTR... i.e. always, as long as fSTR is positive.

If fSTR is between 9 and 15 (common range to be in), only Amano and Totsukano have better DoT than Soboro... so yes, it is very much a "damaging weapon" as you label it.

The argument wasn't sound from the start, though : Berserk will impact both DoT and Namas.

Ok, I'll grant you that, but how much damage are all those hits doing when you're in Tsuko's situation of low buffs fighting a monster with high Defense? He basically wants to dismiss weaker situations like Greater Colibri and Salvage because his claim is that Yoichinoyumi is better where one actually has to contend with Attack starvation.

** As an aside, the reason I said that Attack is somewhat irrelevant for Greater Colibri is because real food can be easily maintained in that situation and we can operate from the usual BG assumption that if someone has a relic weapon, they're going to have two buffers in their pink bird party, too... a pair of Minuets and some Red Curry Buns or whatever the hell should be reasonably close to capping Ranged Attack during weaponskills and melee Attack shouldn't be terribly far off. **

Berserk definitely helps if you're doing something like trying to three-man Aspidochelone with pure melee, but going from hitting for 15 damage to 17 damage, even with a multi-attack weapon, somehow doesn't seem like the world-shattering difference that saying "17% more damage" implies. For that matter, how the hell does a 25% Attack boost active 60% of the time equate to a universal gain of ~15% damage? Don't explain to me the dummy math of people multiplying the boost by the uptime, I get that, but Attack doesn't work out as a straight damage boost.

Would Berserk help Namas Arrow? Indubitably. Would it help melee? Sure. How much, though? Not the same. For Namas Arrow, you're stacking on all your WS stats, all your STR and, where you can't find any STR, AGI and Ranged Attack. For melee, you're piling on all that Haste and Accuracy and your fSTR and pDIF are radically lower.

Either way, I pretty much got what I came here for: Tsuko, as usual, can't actually back up what he's saying and at least has admitted (as much as he ever will) that he cannot. That leaves me feeling satisfied that his opinion is merely opinion, rather than based on evidence of even the anecdotal variety. Of course, he'd have done better to say, "Berserk helps more in the low-man HNM stuff that I do and my experiences are the only ones I'm ever willing to argue about," but that's way too honest for him.

[JnnnnnL]

there can be a big difference between 350 acc and 410 mate I remember I tested it on my war 2-3 years ago and was like MEH, I had capped acc with adaman hauberk, switched it for fishing body and my acc dropped to like 88%

Could you please post your gears ? I'd like to see how your stp affects the number of hits you need to get to 100tp. Because if for example rajas is your only stp item in your slug set, then using it or not in your TP set doesn't change anything , in other words you gotta find the good ratio between stp/haste/acc to max out your dmgs but I'm sure of something, it's that with max acc+max haste+sushi(sole or squid if capped fstr2) you got capped acc(This doesn't even include best acc gears such as PW body).

[Aero]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showp...&postcount=764

Although I have gone from HF+1 > Martial, added STP+4 to Wadecores, and gone to Rajas/Sniper+1 since the time I posted that.

[JnnnnnL]

Well, first of all I've done and will always do all the maths for Anni because it's the best gun. So, if you got a cor in your pt giving you +16stp and if you only got rajas as stp gear in your WS setup then you'll have a ws+10hits setup and having +9stp in your TP set up won't change anything.

It could be interesting if you were using more stp in your WS setup and it would also be affected by how much stp is the sam roll is giving you so you'd have to keep track of which number is active on you and use different set ups (plus with cor AF there is a chance for the roll to give as much stp as if there was a sam in pt) so tbh unless you're elitist and want to max your parse results, you're not gonna do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>For example, number 10 no HQ = +24stp = total of +29 with only rajas in WS and TP set up = 9hit set up
>>>>>>>>>>>>number 7 no HQ = +16stp = total of 21stp with only rajas for WSs and +25 (with rajas+wadecore) to TP = 10hit set up but if you use skadi legs in your ws set up and stp earring in your TP set up for more stp = 9hit set up
So you see that it would take some maths/time to cover all possibilities. But one day i'll do it xD.


I usually do it that way, I consider the cor gives me a minimum of 16stp and do the maths with that and cap my acc/haste, every +stp is a bonus. I think calculating the STP you get from each roll (including cor merits(the one that affects double up *forgot its name*, chance of HQ with cor AF ect) and choosing your gears based on that would be more effective but I'm too lazy to do that for the moment so I just consider I got +16stp.

In other words if you don't have a cor in your pt then yes having +9stp gives you a 11hit instead of 12 but imo use wadecore with snapeshot in a WS+3hit set up as rng/sam ratk (w/ cor) and get a cor in your KC pts.

To conclude, perhaps doing the maths for each number of sam roll and using +5 or +9stp when it's needed(or perhaps even more stp gears) would max your KC dmgs but +9stp(or more) would penalize your acc even with best acc gears unless you got +10acc on wadecore (but snapshot ftw). Maybe new tiers of Accuracy Bonus at 99 or new gears will solve that problem idk, for the moment i'm too lazy to do the maths for a so small difference.

For your acc issues, with the gears you posted, assuming no augment on dusks+full club merits+bream+1 you should have ~406 acc vs ~372 w/o merits and with crab sushis (~389 with merits) so it might be why you don't have a very good acc but you could have more than 406 with cuch+ancient torque. It's 7am here so I might be wrong, if you wanna redo it lol

NOTE: Sorry for the complicated post but as I said it's 7am and my brain might not be working correctly lol , English isn't my main language so sorry again if my english sucks. PM me your MSN or idk if you wanna talk more about it and rng in general

[Nightfyre]

Berserk definitely helps if you're doing something like trying to three-man Aspidochelone with pure melee, but going from hitting for 15 damage to 17 damage, even with a multi-attack weapon, somehow doesn't seem like the world-shattering difference that saying "17% more damage" implies.

17% is 17% regardless of whether the numbers are large or small. Acting like the resulting numbers matter more than the proportion is a common and very flawed argument, the proportion is the value that matters for this comparison.

For that matter, how the hell does a 25% Attack boost active 60% of the time equate to a universal gain of ~15% damage? Don't explain to me the dummy math of people multiplying the boost by the uptime, I get that, but Attack doesn't work out as a straight damage boost.

Adding the same quantity of attack successively will get your progressively diminishing increases, but Berserk's boost scales with your base attack and thus its proportional value is constant in any non-pDIF capped situation. Level correction is where the >15% values come in.

Would Berserk help Namas Arrow? Indubitably. Would it help melee? Sure. How much, though? Not the same.

Wrong per my points above, though indirectly you're sort of right (for the wrong reasons) depending on the pDIF range you're in. Certain ranges return a constant pDIF value for MIN or MAX.

While Tsuko has a habit of not supporting their arguments with detailed numbers (if any), I recall very few situations where they were definitely wrong. Most (all? memory gets fuzzy at this point) of those were goofs rather than being outright wrong on saying x > y when in reality y > x.

Going off some very rough math (no accounting for non-Haste differences in builds, differing hit/round proportions, etc), I'm fairly sure Tsuko's right. Jump, High Jump, and the resulting WS would have to account for around 10% of your DPS in a situation with Haste, Marches, and Hasso for /DRG to win assuming perfect haste gear. As your gear gets weaker, /WAR gets stronger. I wouldn't be surprised if /DRG won with a DNC present though. Somebody else will have to build a comprehensive model if a conclusive answer is sought, I really don't care enough about SAM or Yoichi to do so. In the meantime, some values for the Jump-based portion of a Soboro/Yoichi SAM's DPS would be nice~

[Tsuko_Asura]

Either way, I pretty much got what I came here for: Tsuko, as usual, can't actually back up what he's saying and at least has admitted (as much as he ever will) that he cannot. That leaves me feeling satisfied that his opinion is merely opinion, rather than based on evidence of even the anecdotal variety. Of course, he'd have done better to say, "Berserk helps more in the low-man HNM stuff that I do and my experiences are the only ones I'm ever willing to argue about," but that's way too honest for him.

Beg your pardon? I'm perfectly capable of the simplified explanation, but you were (pointlessly) requiring more in-depth numbers that I'm not comfortable providing.

Regardless of whether or not you'd like me to be wrong, Berserk is going to provide approximately 15-17% increase in global damage in any situation where your attack isn't capped which is, again, not an easy task with Namas Arrow(and I do find it odd that you're calling my scenarios unrealistic, when you're the one suggesting Chaos Roll, double-Minuets, Porcupine Pie, Angon, Box Step, and Dia III are going to materialize on whatever you're firing at). Conversely, the additional haste made available by /DRG is going to provide an approximately 10% increase to both TP damage and WS frequency. Jump and High Jump are likely to increase both of those numbers very slightly(due to JA delays interfering with high-haste situations), but certainly nowhere near 5-7%.

And that, Patrick, is the math done to the best of my ability. As I said earlier, if you require anything more in-depth, I don't trust my limited knowledge of the damage formulas enough to give it to you, so I suggest you hang tight until someone more qualified comes along, but I assure you its not going to change the outcome.

[JnnnnnL]

I dunno if it's been said before (too lazy to reread everything) but the way namas' dmgs will be affected by the ratk(so berserk basically) also depends on the mob's def because don't forget that : For rng attacks when 0.9 ≤ cRatio ≤ 1.1 >>> fMax(cRatio) = 1 and fMin(cRatio) = 1 http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:R-pdif-v2.gif

[Tsuko_Asura]

Thanks, I'm aware.

[Demosthenes11]

christ idk why, at this stage in the game's life, mods dont just ban some of the fucking morons in this thread so they can't continue to spread inane bullshit.

listen to tsuko, he is right

[seiji]

Why did SE make Yoichi the most expensive relic by having it not require any byne bills?

because SE thought all currencies be same price

Assuming Names is used with Rajas, Hachi legs/feet, and with 5 Stp merits, you'd get 21.8TP return from Names.

I'm kind of thinking Names+4 is better if Acc is capped, but the haste drop and no sword strap might fall behind in high haste situations. You'd also need to use Hedgehog Pie instead of Red Curry on Names+4 to achive comparable Acc."

- hachi legs??? really???

Hachiman Hakama
[Legs] All Races
DEF: 36 "Store TP" +3
Weapon Skill Accuracy +6
Latent Effect: Ranged Attack +7
Lv. 70 SAM

Latent effect
* Active while TP ≥ 100% (Not active during Weapon Skills).

sure you can make lot better trade off


- arrabiata for namas+4?
or just ask a sam roll?

anyway kinda late with possible oa3-4 GK comming in <1week

[Konda]

went do bed, let me clear a couple of things up

- hachi legs??? really???
sure you can make lot better trade off

looking at the standard of equipment in the TP setups and the nature of the discussion, do you really thing I was referring to lv70 JSE instead of Hachiryu equipment???

for the record, aces helm with stirgoi ring is fucking retarded

Well what would you suggest? Snipers+1 and turban? Haste is capped with Aces, thats why it's in there.

How the fuck is that dyslexia.

You just don't know how to read.

humdur, what do you think dyslexia is?

dys·lex·i·a [dis-lek-see-uh]
–nounPathology.
any of various reading disorders associated with impairment of the ability to interpret spatial relationships or to integrate auditory and visual information.

[Dooom]

I'm assuming he means Hachiryu legs (str+10 etc.), not the JSE ones.

[Byrthnoth]

Oh darn, I forgot about this thread because my dancer got a party (72 now, hooray). I've actually done the math about relative TP rates with a 5-hit Soboro/Yoichi vs. a 6, and in high haste situations you gain TP almost equally fast (due to sacrificing hands for Hachiman +1 and grip for Rose), and the 6-hit hits more and has better TP gear so its lolDoT is better.

6-hit TP:
Soboro/Sword/Yoichi/Arrow
Turban/Ancient/Bushi/Brutal or Hollow
Usu/Dusk+1/Rajas/Toreador
Cuchu/Speed/Haidates/Dusk +1
11 STP + 35 from traits/merits = 15.7 TP per hit, 21.5TP needed from WS

6-hit WS
Soboro/Sword/Yoichi/Kabura (15.1 TP base)
Zha'Go's/Gorget/Bushi/Triumph
Osode/S.Kotes/Rajas/Triumph
Amemet +1/Bucc Belt/Hachiryu/Hachiryu
10 STP + 35 from Traits/merits = 21.8 TP, so it completes the 6-hit regardless of Brutal or not.

5-hit TP:
Soboro/Rose/Yoichi/Arrow
Turban/Ancient Torque/Bushi/Brutal
Usu body/Hachiman+1/Rajas/Toreador's
Cuchu/Speed/Byakko's/Usu feet
67 STP = 19.2 TP/hit = 23.2 TP required from WS to complete 5-hit. You sacrifice Sword Strap and 5% Haste to keep your 5-hit.

5-hit WS:
Soboro/Rose/Yoichi/Kabura
Zha'Go's/Gorget/Bushi/Triumph
Kirin's Osode/Hachiman Kote +1/Rajas/Triumph
Amemet +1/Bucc Belt/Hachiryu/Hachiryu
58 STP, more than enough to make 6-hit. You sacrifice Seiryu's Kote's for Hachiman to keep your 5-hit.


6-hit: 436 Delay, 23% Haste, 95% Accuracy, 15% DA, 3.045 attack rounds to 100TP (10% DA = 3.053, 5% DA = 3.061, 0% DA = 3.071)
5-hit: 450 Delay, 18% Haste, 95% Accuracy, 15% DA, 2.487 attack rounds to 100TP (5% DA = 2.513)

35% Haste from buffs:
(3.045*436*(1-(23% from Gear+10% from Hasso+35% from Buffs)))/60 = 1 WS per 7.08 Seconds with a 6-hit
(2.487*450*(1-(18%+10%+35%)))/60 = 1 WS per 6.90 seconds with a 5-hit

45% Haste from buffs:
(3.045*436*(1-(23%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.87 Seconds with a 6-hit
(2.487*450*(1-(18%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 5.03 seconds with a 5-hit

So with normal double marches and Haste, the 5-hit gets TP slightly faster than the 6-hit, but uses worse TP gear and hits less often (so the difference may end up negated by a change in lolDoT and WS gear).
Tack on Haste Samba 5/5 and it's really pretty hard to make an argument for the 5-hit over the 6-hit.


My impression is that /WAR is king for Yoichi SAM due to the (essentially) 25%+ boost in Namas damage 60% of the time. However, the last time I dealt with a Yoichi SAM was pre-WotG where Dancers were not an option. With /DRG and a Dancer, the 5-hit would definitely pull ahead in turns of WS frequency (replace Bushi with Wyvern), while the 6-hit hardly benefits (Bushi -> Wyvern, switch to Usu feet and Ace's to up your Acc I guess, switch to Nocturnus Mail to slightly increase TAs). Whether the differences in the TP and WS sets counters the increase in WS frequency still between the 5 and 6-hits, I do not know.

45% Haste from buffs and /DRG:
(3.045*436*(1-(26%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.43 Seconds with a 6-hit (Nocturnus Triples not factored as I don't know proc rate... and it'd be a pain)
(2.487*450*(1-(23%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.10 seconds with a 5-hit

[Konda]

Thanks Byrthnoth, that's what I was curios about.

The sets were mainly aimed at situations where you're buffed out the ass, so attack from skill and hq meat/buffs should more or less take you to cap. Things like salv climbs/t1 ein/limbus/merits and city dynamis...

I realise that as soon as mobs start getting harder, the Namas+4 setup becomes significantly less appropriate due to Acc limitations.

However Names+5 (/war or /drg) lets you drop storeTP for haste and Acc in ways you can't normally do with GKT, meaning you can use soboro+meat for more situations than you would be able to with just GKT before needing to swap to acc based food. (ie you can swap to Acc ringx2 instead of using rajas+acc ring, and a few other little tradeoffs like that)

[seiji]

went do bed, let me clear a couple of things up



looking at the standard of equipment in the TP setups and the nature of the discussion, do you really thing I was referring to lv70 JSE instead of Hachiryu equipment???

totally forgot set bonus worked with 2piece

[Thorny]

Don't mind Seij, his character is worth less than half what hachiryu legs are. Makes sense he wouldn't think of it.

[Konda]

Bah, I'm going to have to say something stupid again to get back into Thorny's sig

[JnnnnnL]

Oh darn, I forgot about this thread because my dancer got a party (72 now, hooray). I've actually done the math about relative TP rates with a 5-hit Soboro/Yoichi vs. a 6, and in high haste situations you gain TP almost equally fast (due to sacrificing hands for Hachiman +1 and grip for Rose), and the 6-hit hits more and has better TP gear so its lolDoT is better.

6-hit TP:
Soboro/Sword/Yoichi/Arrow
Turban/Ancient/Bushi/Brutal or Hollow
Usu/Dusk+1/Rajas/Toreador
Cuchu/Speed/Haidates/Dusk +1
11 STP + 35 from traits/merits = 15.7 TP per hit, 21.5TP needed from WS

6-hit WS
Soboro/Sword/Yoichi/Kabura (15.1 TP base)
Zha'Go's/Gorget/Bushi/Triumph
Osode/S.Kotes/Rajas/Triumph
Amemet +1/Bucc Belt/Hachiryu/Hachiryu
10 STP + 35 from Traits/merits = 21.8 TP, so it completes the 6-hit regardless of Brutal or not.

5-hit TP:
Soboro/Rose/Yoichi/Arrow
Turban/Ancient Torque/Bushi/Brutal
Usu body/Hachiman+1/Rajas/Toreador's
Cuchu/Speed/Byakko's/Usu feet
67 STP = 19.2 TP/hit = 23.2 TP required from WS to complete 5-hit. You sacrifice Sword Strap and 5% Haste to keep your 5-hit.

5-hit WS:
Soboro/Rose/Yoichi/Kabura
Zha'Go's/Gorget/Bushi/Triumph
Kirin's Osode/Hachiman Kote +1/Rajas/Triumph
Amemet +1/Bucc Belt/Hachiryu/Hachiryu
58 STP, more than enough to make 6-hit. You sacrifice Seiryu's Kote's for Hachiman to keep your 5-hit.


6-hit: 436 Delay, 23% Haste, 95% Accuracy, 15% DA, 3.045 attack rounds to 100TP (10% DA = 3.053, 5% DA = 3.061, 0% DA = 3.071)
5-hit: 450 Delay, 18% Haste, 95% Accuracy, 15% DA, 2.487 attack rounds to 100TP (5% DA = 2.513)

35% Haste from buffs:
(3.045*436*(1-(23% from Gear+10% from Hasso+35% from Buffs)))/60 = 1 WS per 7.08 Seconds with a 6-hit
(2.487*450*(1-(18%+10%+35%)))/60 = 1 WS per 6.90 seconds with a 5-hit

45% Haste from buffs:
(3.045*436*(1-(23%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.87 Seconds with a 6-hit
(2.487*450*(1-(18%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 5.03 seconds with a 5-hit

So with normal double marches and Haste, the 5-hit gets TP slightly faster than the 6-hit, but uses worse TP gear and hits less often (so the difference may end up negated by a change in lolDoT and WS gear).
Tack on Haste Samba 5/5 and it's really pretty hard to make an argument for the 5-hit over the 6-hit.


My impression is that /WAR is king for Yoichi SAM due to the (essentially) 25%+ boost in Namas damage 60% of the time. However, the last time I dealt with a Yoichi SAM was pre-WotG where Dancers were not an option. With /DRG and a Dancer, the 5-hit would definitely pull ahead in turns of WS frequency (replace Bushi with Wyvern), while the 6-hit hardly benefits (Bushi -> Wyvern, switch to Usu feet and Ace's to up your Acc I guess, switch to Nocturnus Mail to slightly increase TAs). Whether the differences in the TP and WS sets counters the increase in WS frequency still between the 5 and 6-hits, I do not know.

45% Haste from buffs and /DRG:
(3.045*436*(1-(26%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.43 Seconds with a 6-hit (Nocturnus Triples not factored as I don't know proc rate... and it'd be a pain)
(2.487*450*(1-(23%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.10 seconds with a 5-hit

I would use hachiman body+1 in the WS set up and Dusk+1 in the TP set up for 5hits, I doubt +1str and +10agi in your WS setup will be better than haste+4 but anyway this problem should be solved with the next tier of Store TP :D