Namas Arrow and Samurai

[Thorny]

Bah, I'm going to have to say something stupid again to get back into Thorny's sig

You were there far more than long enough, but I got bored of it and I haven't seen anything that's both stupid and would fit well in months. Neosutra is too long-winded ;;

[Konda]

I would use hachiman body+1 in the WS set up and Dusk+1 in the TP set up for 5hits, I doubt +1str and +10agi in your WS setup will be better than haste+4 but anyway this problem should be solved with the next tier of Store TP :D

exept it wouldn't free up dusk gloves? Using Hachi body+1 for Namas still results in you needing 19.275TP/hit or 19.3TP/hit since I dont think ffxi accounts for TP to 3 Decimal places.

At best, it would free up back and Ecph ring or neck.

Basically a KC rng with anni spamming coro > 2x Slug > coro > 2x Slug with a full enmity- set up is better than soboro sam with yoichi for 2 main reasons:

1) Bow's ratk penality at close range (Gun has one too but a lot less important)

2) Sam roll (even w/o a sam in pt) helps KC(10 hits to get to 100TP instead of 12 w/o any stp from gears except rajas in the ws setup) when it only allows the sam to use less stp gears.

what is this nonsense?

How much is a sushi Slugshot in full -enmity gear going to do? prob much less than you think it does.

1) SAM can use meat, since it's using a A+ skilled weapon
2) The SAM using less stp gear (Namas+4 build) can then use more haste.
3) SAM also gets hasso and a ton more tp/delay than RNG via StoreTP.
4)GTFO

edit:

Forgot to add the generic GTFO which is usually found in these situations.

[Byrthnoth]

I would use hachiman body+1 in the WS set up and Dusk+1 in the TP set up for 5hits, I doubt +1str and +10agi in your WS setup will be better than haste+4 but anyway this problem should be solved with the next tier of Store TP :D

Yeah, as Konda said, this doesn't work. You end up 2.7 TP shy of 100. If you tossed on Ecphoria and Chiv Chain you... still wouldn't be pulling it off.

However, I agree that the 4-hit will become much more attractive given one more STP Tier.

I'm not really sure what the last few posts have been about, I think it was misunderstood sarcasm from multiple parties? Anyway, the set bonus does work with 2 pieces and gives +5 STP.

Edit: I should note that my 5-hit set isn't necessarily optimal. However, there is no Acc loss in them, which is necessary because you'd always like to be eating meat with Namas.

[Konda]

Note: Even with sushi, the ratk of a rng using Gun is as high as sam's ratk with ratk food (before adding in the ranged penality)

oh, and I missed this...

The skill difference between A- and C+ is 39.

That's what, 35 Ratk?

So RNG's 39 higher skill rating magically overcomes the attack gained from HQ meat? +90 to +150 depending on buffs.

Don't be so stupid.

[JnnnnnL]

exept it wouldn't free up dusk gloves? Using Hachi body+1 for Namas still results in you needing 19.275TP/hit or 19.3TP/hit since I dont think ffxi accounts for TP to 3 Decimal places.

At best, it would free up back and Ecph ring or neck.





what is this nonsense?

How much is a sushi Slugshot in full -enmity gear going to do? prob much less than you think it does.

1) SAM can use meat, since it's using a A+ skilled weapon
2) The SAM using less stp gear (Namas+4 build) can then use more haste.
3) SAM also gets hasso and a ton more tp/delay than RNG via StoreTP.
4)GTFO

edit:

Forgot to add the generic GTFO which is usually found in these situations.

Ok, I'm not gonna explain everything because i'm too lazy it IS possible to have a 5hit with +4% haste from dusk+1(+3% if you use aces) even tho you'd have to sacrifice some acc, I didn't say it was the best I said I'd use it when it's a viable choice(when you got a brd rotation in events for example)

The enmity- set up i'm talking about is -10 from earrings, -5 from AF2 feet, -20 from coro, -2 from shield ect...wow what a waste of possible DMGs o.o and anyway as it was stated before you're not even going to need full enmity- unless you're low manning or only DDing vs other kc rngs or yoichi sams.

1)Meat does NOT increase ratk, you'd use curry buns.
2)Rng KC with max haste would have 23% haste, how much would a sam have even with dusk+1 have ?
3)No, especially if you have a cor in your pt. Too lazy again to do the maths but do it yourself and you'll see.
4)learn2bepolite


EDIT :

oh, and I missed this...

The skill difference between A- and C+ is 39.

That's what, 35 Ratk?

So RNG's 39 higher skill rating magically overcomes the attack gained from HQ meat? +90 to +150 depending on buffs.

Don't be so stupid.

Don't be so stupid. You know it's more complicated than that. And by as high as, I actually meant, *there is no big difference*and if you count the buffs then count the rng atk penality as well.


@Byrthnoth :

Idk if we can trust wiki(I haven't tested it myself) but according to it, double march give less haste than 20% so 6hit would be even more advantaged according to your maths.

[ZhiGaruda]

However Names+5 (/war or /drg) lets you drop storeTP for haste and Acc in ways you can't normally do with GKT, meaning you can use soboro+meat for more situations than you would be able to with just GKT before needing to swap to acc based food. (ie you can swap to Acc ringx2 instead of using rajas+acc ring, and a few other little tradeoffs like that)

Is this seriously going to continue? Namas, my god

[Aero]

How much is a sushi Slugshot in full -enmity gear going to do? prob much less than you think it does.

1) SAM can use meat, since it's using a A+ skilled weapon
2) The SAM using less stp gear (Namas+4 build) can then use more haste.
3) SAM also gets hasso and a ton more tp/delay than RNG via StoreTP.
4)GTFO

edit:

Forgot to add the generic GTFO which is usually found in these situations.

Agree 100% in -enmity slugs; but:

1. Slugshot owns the shit out of Namas arrow.
2. RNG gets to wear all the haste gear SAM does. SAM gets hasso as its only, albeit large, haste advantage.
3. SAM doesnt get more TP/second than RNG. Infact before hasso/buffs/gear RNG should get nearly 50% more TP/second than SAM. With buffs and ACC returns the gap is alot closer; but I dont believe SAM will ever overcome it.

If we want to argue best vs best; RNG would be using culvy+1/shells, not relic.(Albeit I dont consider it viable due to inventory and insane gil costs)

Now Im not the best at mathology but in order for a 2.75 fTP WS coming from a D:119 weapon to overcome a 5.0 fTP WS from a D:141 weapon you're going to need a hell of a lot more rattack than a SAM can overcome.


Im not the most qualified person to math it out so if someone wants to feel free to. But in order for a perfect SAM to outparse a perfect RNG, soboro DoT will have to overcome the increased WS damage and frequency RNG will be preforming over it.

The more buffs both receive the more they should benefit RNG as well.

If anyone is curious for my RNG/WAR I parse about 15:85 DoT:WS. I also have about 80% ACC on colibri with lots of room to improve.

[Byrthnoth]

1)Meat does NOT increase ratk, you'd use curry buns.
2)Rng KC with max haste would have 23% haste, how much would a sam have even with dusk+1 have ?
3)No, especially if you have a cor in your pt. Too lazy again to do the maths but do it yourself and you'll see.

1) Curry Buns do increase RAtk? I'm confused what you're saying here honestly. Also, before the introduction of Curry buns the Yoichi I'm thinking of used to merit on Birds with Red Curry or Hellsteak +1s. Yoichi SAMs don't pull hate unless the other DDs suck.
2) 23%, look up at my sets.
3) If you assume 0 TP overflow and /SAM with 23% Haste and 100% Acc with the "generally accepted" (and probably incorrect) hit distribution, K-club Rangers still don't get TP as fast as Soboro SAMs. I'm sorry, but math says you're wrong on this one.

In any situation where you can use Soboro, Soboro/Yoichi SAM is better than K-club/Yoichi RNG. I'm sorry, but it just is. Regardless, it hardly matters. You're probably better off making points that are supported by math, because doing the math will force you to see whether you're right or not.

[JnnnnnL]

Agree 100% in -enmity slugs

Slugshot owns the shit out of Namas arrow.

If we want to argue best vs best; RNG would be using culvy+1/shells, not relic.(Albeit I dont consider it viable due to inventory and insane gil costs)

1)As I said earlier Emnity- mainly comes from coro's aftermath+earring+af2 feet so it doesn't *waste* a lot of dmgs when it allows you to generate a lot less enmity but ya it's not always "necessary".

2)+1

3)It's definitely not viable and hopefully anni will be better than culvy at 99 with new trials.

[JnnnnnL]

1) Curry Buns do increase RAtk? I'm confused what you're saying here honestly. Also, before the introduction of Curry buns the Yoichi I'm thinking of used to merit on Birds with Red Curry or Hellsteak +1s. Yoichi SAMs don't pull hate unless the other DDs suck.
2) 23%, look up at my sets.
3) If you assume 0 TP overflow and /SAM with 23% Haste and 100% Acc with the "generally accepted" (and probably incorrect) hit distribution, K-club Rangers still don't get TP as fast as Soboro SAMs. I'm sorry, but math says you're wrong on this one.

In any situation where you can use Soboro, Soboro/Yoichi SAM is better than K-club/Yoichi RNG. I'm sorry, but it just is. Regardless, it hardly matters. You're probably better off making points that are supported by math, because doing the math will force you to see whether you're right or not.

1)Is it sarcasm ? Use w/e you want as food but not meats, just expected that as he wanted to use meat then curry buns would be the most viable choice for him due to price of red curry, unless i'm wrong and red curry are cheaper than buns <.<

2)It was sarcasm, I just wanted to point out that except +10% from hasso sam wouldn't have more haste.

3)He said a ton more of, and sorry but even without a cor giving sam roll sam does not do "a ton" more WSs. I didn't do the maths w/ sam roll but I assume rng would a lot more WSs with it.

I'm talking about KC/Anni RNG, not KC/Yoichi RNG, and trust me or not or do all the maths yourself because i'm not gonna do it again here, but KC/Anni IS better than Soboro/Yoichi Sam overall.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, my bad.

[Aero]

Feel free to correct me but:

SAM getting 15.7TP/attack * 1.9 attacks/round = 29.8 TP per attack round.
29.8/436 * 60 = 4.1 TP/second

RNG getting 7.7TP/attack * 3.82 attacks/round = 29.4 TP per attack round.
29.4/264 * 60 = 6.6 TP/second.

Assuming equal accuracy RNG will be getting TP alot faster. However ACC is RNG's weak point, and SAMs strong point.

[Konda]

Ok, I'm not gonna explain everything because i'm too lazy it IS possible to have a 5hit with +4% haste from dusk+1(+3% if you use aces) even tho you'd have to sacrifice some acc, I didn't say it was the best I said I'd use it when it's a viable choice(when you got a brd rotation in events for example)

what the hell?

It's not possible, assuming Hachi legs/feet+Rajas. And even if you WS in DOMARU+1, it still isnt possible.

If it is possible, then explain yourself instead of saying "it's possible, but im lazy so just take my word for it k"



Even with -40 Enmity or whatever you're suggesting, a RNG/WAR spamming coro > slug > slug is going to pull hate in fights longer than 1-2mins, and if you're suggesting using -enmity for merit mobs it should be dead after coro+slug.
If you're suggesting to use Kclub on HNMs with RNG, then you're pretty stupid. It just barely manages capped Acc on colibri with sushi and PERFECT equipment.

What's more, RNG/WAR, unlike SAM/XXX will get raped by even merit Lv mobs, GL staying alive if anything that matters looks your way when you're feeding it so much TP.

Additionally, Double Attack hurts K.club's TP gain where as it marginally increases Soboro's.

[Konda]

Feel free to correct me but:

SAM getting 15.7TP/attack * 1.9 attacks/round = 29.8 TP per attack round.
29.8/436 * 60 = 4.1 TP/second

RNG getting 7.7TP/attack * 3.82 attacks/round = 29.4 TP per attack round.
29.4/264 * 60 = 6.6 TP/second.

Assuming equal accuracy RNG will be getting TP alot faster. However ACC is RNG's weak point, and SAMs strong point.

You're assuming the bare minimum TP/hit needed for SAM.
These values can be skewed so much with StoreTP.
You also didnt account for hasso.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, I have a hard time understanding what you're saying. I've avoided doing intense "x-hit" k-club math thus far due to the lack of a real hit distribution... and that's going to continue. It's a waste of time until we have a better idea what the actual distribution is.

It comes down to this:
Ranger's accuracy bonus job traits are impressive, but their club skill is a freaking E. Four accuracy bonus traits and you still have less accuracy than a Thief. Sushi all the time with K-club. This puts them at a RAtk disadvantage and probably still leaves their hit rate uncapped. Also, despite having the same Haste gear access as SAM, they lack other gear choices (like Arhat's +1 should they pull hate), and Seigan.

If I'm not mistaken, you're suggesting using the relic gun WS (DEX40/AGI40, 3.0fTP with Acc boost) half the time to keep the aftermath up and Slug shot (AGI30, 5.0fTP with Acc penalty) half the time for damage?

Well, if we aren't afraid to use Seigan sometimes, why wouldn't SAM take their higher RAtk and use Namas (STR40/AGI40, 3.0 fTP, Acc boost) half the time to keep aftermath up and use Sidewinder (STR16/AGI25, 5.0TP with Acc penalty) half the time? They have higher RAtk than the RNG, slightly lower base weapon damage with Bow+Arrow vs. Gun+Bullet, and the weaponskills have better mods. SAMs aren't the defenseless sissies that Rangers are. They have Seigan and can use it with Soboro.

[JnnnnnL]

what the hell?

It's not possible, assuming Hachi legs/feet+Rajas. And even if you WS in DOMARU+1, it still isnt possible.

If it is possible, then explain yourself instead of saying "it's possible, but im lazy so just take my word for it k"



Even with -40 Enmity or whatever you're suggesting, a RNG/WAR spamming coro > slug > slug is going to pull hate in fights longer than 1-2mins, and if you're suggesting using -enmity for merit mobs it should be dead after coro+slug.
If you're suggesting to use Kclub on HNMs with RNG, then you're pretty stupid. It just barely manages capped Acc on colibri with sushi and PERFECT equipment.

What's more, RNG/WAR, unlike SAM/XXX will get raped by even merit Lv mobs, GL staying alive if anything that matters looks your way when you're feeding it so much TP.

Additionally, Double Attack hurts K.club's TP gain where as it marginally increases Soboro's.

Man, first of all seriously get a brain and read my posts ; ; thats really annoying.

What did I say in my previous posts ? Replace some acc gears by stp+ ones and you'll find out by yourself how to get a 5 hit, if you don't know what gears i'm talking about then don't even try.

Now for enmity-, learn how enmity works please, with the right enmity- setup and a tank who knows how to play in dyna(for example) you won't pull hate with ONE big slug, and since after 2 ws the mob should be dead, you will never pull hate (note: you won't be the only person DDing even if you're lowmanning). Example: first mob > coro > slug > second mob > slug > coro > third mob > slug > slug ect... The only possibility to pull hate is when you use slug twice in a row but after 2 big slug with full buffs+other DDs the mob will be dead.

Bye.

[seiji]

Well, I have a hard time understanding what you're saying. I've avoided doing intense "x-hit" k-club math thus far due to the lack of a real hit distribution... and that's going to continue. It's a waste of time until we have a better idea what the actual distribution is.

It comes down to this:
Ranger's accuracy bonus job traits are impressive, but their club skill is a freaking E. Four accuracy bonus traits and you still have less accuracy than a Thief. Sushi all the time with K-club. This puts them at a RAtk disadvantage and probably still leaves their hit rate uncapped. Also, despite having the same Haste gear access as SAM, they lack other gear choices (like Arhat's +1 should they pull hate), and Seigan.

If I'm not mistaken, you're suggesting using the relic gun WS (DEX40/AGI40, 3.0fTP with Acc boost) half the time to keep the aftermath up and Slug shot (AGI30, 5.0fTP with Acc penalty) half the time for damage?

Well, if we aren't afraid to use Seigan sometimes, why wouldn't SAM take their higher RAtk and use Namas (STR40/AGI40, 3.0 fTP, Acc boost) half the time to keep aftermath up and use Sidewinder (STR16/AGI25, 5.0TP with Acc penalty) half the time? They have higher RAtk than the RNG, slightly lower base weapon damage with Bow+Arrow vs. Gun+Bullet, and the weaponskills have better mods. SAMs aren't the defenseless sissies that Rangers are. They have Seigan and can use it with Soboro.

because sam cant side without /rng?

[Aero]

What's more, RNG/WAR, unlike SAM/XXX will get raped by even merit Lv mobs, GL staying alive if anything that matters looks your way when you're feeding it so much TP.

Additionally, Double Attack hurts K.club's TP gain where as it marginally increases Soboro's.

RNG/WAR can just as easily go RNG/DRG; which is better in highly buffed situations. As for staying alive when getting whacked RNG isnt much more squishy than any other job that isnt using Siegan/shadows(Truth be told my prefered SJ for KCing is /NIN); granted they do have less HP than most other jobs.

As for TP spam; KC generally does nothing to the rate at which mobs spam. When you're using KC you likely have one or two more DDs smacking it and it will have 100+ TP fairly quickly; even if the KC was not present. You could argue that it will make them WS harder due to having closer to 300 TP instead of 100; but even that's debatable.

[Byrthnoth]

because sam cant side without /rng?

Touche, but SAM could /RNG and still have similar RAtk on average to RNG/WAR. Meat vs. Sushi is a big difference.

[Konda]

I'm talking about KC/Anni RNG, not KC/Yoichi RNG, and trust me or not or do all the maths yourself because i'm not gonna do it again here, but KC/Anni IS better than Soboro/Yoichi Sam overall.

What the hell?

I don't trust you in this statement.
I DO want to see the maths you supposidly did somewhere.
And if you're not prepared to give evidence when asked, then you're doing nothing more than posting opinion.

If you want to post opinion then

KC/Anni ISNT better than Soboro/Yochi overall

why?
1) much more TP fed to mob
2) no defensive ability/trait/anything
3) Wednesday
4) lower acc for both TP and Slug
5) less haste
6) SAM gains next to 0 hate.
7) you're retarded
8) Meat DOES give ranged attack, and you're trying to discuss pinnacle RNG builds without knowing this?

[Aero]

You're assuming the bare minimum TP/hit needed for SAM.
These values can be skewed so much with StoreTP.
You also didnt account for hasso.

I pulled the SAM numbers from Byrthnoth's 6 hit set up. I think he had included merits + 11STP in gear. I used a non-/SAM sub + 11STP gear for RNG(Cobra unit harness + rajas). If you were to call me on anything it would be TP overflow skewing the results more than anything.

I stated earlier these numbers would be closer with buffs. But assuming haste buffs; chances are youre also getting some type of +attack/+acc buffs as well which benefit RNG more than SAM.