Namas Arrow and Samurai

[Aero]

I personally cant read Japanese, but Id assume they wouldnt make countless claims without some information to back it up.

[Byrthnoth]

Not sure if it was clear what I ment so Ill clarify. I mean to say Soboros DoT is greater than or equal to Tomoe/Hagun/Perdu Gaxe/etc. Once someone weaponskills I should hope youre not tanking. I suppose provoke would be common especially if you have a WAR abusing retaliation. But to completely dismiss Soboros DoT is faulty.

Soboro's DoT (~10.2 including 5% DA) is comparable to Hagun (10.5 with 5% DA), lower than Tomoe (12.57 with 17% DA), and a *lot* lower than Perdu (13.94 for DA).

It is impressive that Soboro's DoT does not suck because of its base damage, which is why people always pay it lip service and why it's such an awesome weapon at level 50 (though Leucos Voulge +1 is 50 and better DoT when you include DA). However, the availability of Double Attack enhances other weapons while it leaves Soboro's DoT essentially unchanged. That's why I said that unless you get a Triple Attack on the first attack round, you probably won't pull hate even if you have no one provoking.

And yeah, I'm not avoiding finding k-club x-hits because it's impossible to do or something, I'm avoiding it because it's a waste of time until I have some real numbers to put into my spreadsheet for the distribution. If I'm not mistaken, those numbers you cited were originally taken from a JP magazine article where they just recorded the number of hits per round over 100 swings and smoothed them out. It's useful because it tells us most of the time you get 3 or 4 hit rounds, but I wouldn't use it in an argument.

[Aero]

Ill concede the KC hit distribution; but as for DoT may I ask what units you're citing or at least how you came to derive them.

[Byrthnoth]

Ill concede the KC hit distribution; but as for DoT may I ask what units you're citing or at least how you came to derive them.

60*[Base Damage]*[Average Hits per round]/[Delay]

That is the standard way I calculate DoT. If you're comparing two weapons that you'd expect might have different accuracies (like Polearm and GKT for instance, or Perdu Voulge vs. Bonesplitter), then you also have to multiply by the hit rate

60*40*1.905/450 = 10.16 for Soboro with 5% DA
60*75*1.05/450 = 10.5 for Hagun with 5% DA
60*86*1.17/480 = 12.58 for Tomoe with 17% DA
60*96*1.22/504 = 13.94 for Perdu with 22% DA

If you want to get fancy and say Soboro's DoT increases because of fSTR, go ahead. Assuming capped Soboro fSTR for all weapons (D+12, the most favorable case for Soboro), Soboro passes Hagun but still doesn't really approach Tomoe and Perdu Voulge.

60*52*1.905/450 = 13.21 for Soboro with 5% DA and 12 fSTR
60*87*1.05/450 = 12.18 for Hagun with 5% DA and 12 fSTR
60*98*1.17/480 = 14.33 for Tomoe with 17% DA and 12 fSTR
60*108*1.22/504 = 15.69 for Perdu with 22% DA and 12 fSTR

If you want to factor Haste into it, give 2 Marches, Haste, and Haste Samba as buffs, and assume that you're in a situation where having low-hate WSs permits the Yoichi SAM to full-time Hasso while normal SAMs and WARs have to ride Seigan, then Soboro's DoT will be favored probably. It's a solid 30% back without a huge Haste disparity though.

[Demosthenes11]

DoT =/= DPS

[FailureMidgard]

17% is 17% regardless of whether the numbers are large or small. Acting like the resulting numbers matter more than the proportion is a common and very flawed argument, the proportion is the value that matters for this comparison.

Just wanted to say you're only half correct here. As mob defense goes up, the WS/TP split will change and favor WS more and more. As such, 17% to the TP phase in the 2 scenarios is not the same. In a capped pdif situation, it's something random like .17*50=8.5% increase in total damage, in a super low attack situation, it's much more likely to be .17*25=4.25% increase. I obviously made the exact numbers up there, but the concept remains. As such, it is worth keeping in mind the actual numbers to a point...

As for the rest of the thread, I've still seen absolutely no proof or parses saying that Yoichi beats out an Amano. From some rough math I did a while back (I make no claims to it being exact or even having it anymore), Yoichi barely wins out on birds, and loses on anything else unless you are very scared of hate or the Amano can't use Hasso.

[Nightfyre]

Just wanted to say you're only half correct here. As mob defense goes up, the WS/TP split will change and favor WS more and more. As such, 17% to the TP phase in the 2 scenarios is not the same. In a capped pdif situation, it's something random like .17*50=8.5% increase in total damage, in a super low attack situation, it's much more likely to be .17*25=4.25% increase. I obviously made the exact numbers up there, but the concept remains. As such, it is worth keeping in mind the actual numbers to a point...

As for the rest of the thread, I've still seen absolutely no proof or parses saying that Yoichi beats out an Amano. From some rough math I did a while back (I make no claims to it being exact or even having it anymore), Yoichi barely wins out on birds, and loses on anything else unless you are very scared of hate or the Amano can't use Hasso.

I may just not be thinking things through here, but given that we're talking about Yoichi, and thus Namas (ie unlikely to have pDIF capped WS except maybe at birds), I'm not sure how this information applies. It makes sense if we're talking GKT and thus YGK, but that's not the case.

Or am I severely underestimating the ratk level you could reasonably expect for WS?

EDIT: A third possibility: the proportion I was referring to was the % increase in attack, not your TP:WS split.

[FailureMidgard]

I may just not be thinking things through here, but given that we're talking about Yoichi, and thus Namas (ie unlikely to have pDIF capped WS except maybe at birds), I'm not sure how this information applies. It makes sense if we're talking GKT and thus YGK, but that's not the case.

Or am I severely underestimating the ratk level you could reasonably expect for WS?

EDIT: A third possibility: the proportion I was referring to was the % increase in attack, not your TP:WS split.

Hence half correct. ;p I'm only objecting to the way you stated it in a "always the case" scenario. For yoichi, it generally won't matter, and you're more likely to pdif cap on melee first anyway since it isn't Gekko, etc.

But no, your edit is wrong based on what you originally replied to, it was a % increase to damage done (example used was 15>17 point hits).

[Nightfyre]

Hence half correct. ;p I'm only objecting to the way you stated it in a "always the case" scenario. For yoichi, it generally won't matter, and you're more likely to pdif cap on melee first anyway since it isn't Gekko, etc.

But no, your edit is wrong based on what you originally replied to, it was a % increase to damage done (example used was 15>17 point hits).

Ah, ok. Didn't mean to imply that that was the case if you were pDIF capped

[Onorgul]

Just wanted to say you're only half correct here. As mob defense goes up, the WS/TP split will change and favor WS more and more. As such, 17% to the TP phase in the 2 scenarios is not the same. In a capped pdif situation, it's something random like .17*50=8.5% increase in total damage, in a super low attack situation, it's much more likely to be .17*25=4.25% increase. I obviously made the exact numbers up there, but the concept remains. As such, it is worth keeping in mind the actual numbers to a point...

Thank you. I mean, this should be blindingly obvious, but since it interferes with Word of God pronouncements when proof is too hard to come by...

[Sonomaa]

probably an unpopular setup since I always for some reason pick the odd subs but I go SAM/RNG and spamwinder the shit out of stuff like city dynamis and even as far as beaucidine with very high accuracy. Usually 9/10 for sidewinders, on harder mobs I do a namas then spamwinder a meditate.

[Outlaw]

I know of a capable SAM with Yochi and have seen them in action and it's pretty crazy. I don't really know them so I won't say their name sense I don't have their permission. It's impressive to watch though.

[Byrthnoth]

Anyway, so they introduced a 464 GKT, which makes a 5-hit much easier with Yoichi. 12.2TP/hit base, assumed same 30/50/20 proc rate.

5-hit TP:
2-3 Koku/Rose/Yoichi/Arrow
Turban/Ancient Torque/Bushi/Brutal
Usu body/Dusk +1/Rajas/Toreador's
Cuchu/Speed/Byakko's/Usu feet
58 STP = 19.2 TP/hit = 23.2 TP required from WS to complete 5-hit. You move from Sword Strap and Soboro (436-7 delay) to Rose Strap and Koku (464 delay), but lose only 1% Haste.

5-hit WS:
2-3 Koku/Rose/Yoichi/Kabura
Zha'Go's/Gorget/Bushi/Triumph
Kirin's Osode/Hachiman Kote +1/Rajas/Triumph
Amemet +1/Bucc Belt/Hachiryu/Hachiryu
58 STP, more than enough to make 6-hit. You sacrifice Seiryu's Kote's for Hachiman to keep your 5-hit.

Except for Koku, this only uses old gear. There's probably a better way to do it now. A 5-hit Kuro is going to be better than a 6-hit Soboro in almost every situation now, assuming the gear I outlined (or better).

45% Haste from magic/Dancer and /WAR:
(3.045*436*(1-(23%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.86 Seconds with a 6-hit (Nocturnus Triples not factored as I don't know proc rate... and it'd be a pain)
(2.487*464*(1-(22%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.42 seconds with a 5-hit

45% Haste from Magic/Dancer and /DRG:
(3.061*436*(1-(26%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.45 Seconds with a 6-hit (Nocturnus Triples not factored as I don't know proc rate... and it'd be a pain)
(2.513*464*(1-(26%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 3.89 seconds with a 5-hit

The less Haste you have, the more the 5-hit will pull ahead.

[Vodou]

Anyway, so they introduced a 464 GKT, which makes a 5-hit much easier with Yoichi. 12.2TP/hit base, assumed same 30/50/20 proc rate.

5-hit TP:
2-3 Koku/Rose/Yoichi/Arrow
Turban/Ancient Torque/Bushi/Brutal
Usu body/Dusk +1/Rajas/Toreador's
Cuchu/Speed/Byakko's/Usu feet
58 STP = 19.2 TP/hit = 23.2 TP required from WS to complete 5-hit. You move from Sword Strap and Soboro (436-7 delay) to Rose Strap and Koku (464 delay), but lose only 1% Haste.

5-hit WS:
2-3 Koku/Rose/Yoichi/Kabura
Zha'Go's/Gorget/Bushi/Triumph
Kirin's Osode/Hachiman Kote +1/Rajas/Triumph
Amemet +1/Bucc Belt/Hachiryu/Hachiryu
58 STP, more than enough to make 6-hit. You sacrifice Seiryu's Kote's for Hachiman to keep your 5-hit.

Except for Koku, this only uses old gear. There's probably a better way to do it now. A 5-hit Kuro is going to be better than a 6-hit Soboro in almost every situation now, assuming the gear I outlined (or better).

45% Haste from magic/Dancer and /WAR:
(3.045*436*(1-(23%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.86 Seconds with a 6-hit (Nocturnus Triples not factored as I don't know proc rate... and it'd be a pain)
(2.487*464*(1-(22%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.42 seconds with a 5-hit

45% Haste from Magic/Dancer and /DRG:
(3.061*436*(1-(26%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 4.45 Seconds with a 6-hit (Nocturnus Triples not factored as I don't know proc rate... and it'd be a pain)
(2.513*464*(1-(26%+10%+45%)))/60 = 1 WS per 3.89 seconds with a 5-hit

The less Haste you have, the more the 5-hit will pull ahead.

Great idea!

You mentioned this 5-hit tp set gives up 1% in haste.

So, what if sobo uses rose strap, the 5% haste/+ 5tp belt & the +4tp ring? I think that gives 19.2 tp on melee and 23.8 tp from ws also using hachi +1. (Actually nq would work as there is a slight surplus on the WS that might give some options.)

How do you think that compares, assuming I have put the numbers together correctly? Obviously slightly lower acc, but in the places this will be used that might not be a factor. Just trying to quantify the difference as compared to the effort to get this particular GK.

[Spider-Dan]

I have a question:

Since when did "But I take less damage in meripo!" become a valid retort to the who-deals-more-damage discussion?

Because it seems like the only time I ever hear it is Yoichi SAM vs. KC RNG, which is ironic because in such a situation, the mobs are being obliterated at blinding speed anyway.

I feel really bad that I missed the meat of this discussion. I guess I'll just quote from the last time this came up:

First of all, the better the party, the more it favors RNG. This is rather easily explained in that at capped accuracy/haste/(R)ATK, RNG wins this competion in a f*cking landslide (e.g. Soboro's melee damage advantage is greatly reduced, RNG's WS damage advantage is greatly increased, etc.), while with less support, SAM has the advantage. Every additional +(R)ATK, -mobEVA, or -mobDEF change helps RNG more than it does SAM.

But ultimately, I stick by my original statement. Until we know how to factor in Yoichi RATK distance penalty vs. Culverin RATK distance penalty, the single biggest factor in RNG's favor (WS damage) is completely up in the air.

[re: the futility of worrying about RNG's subjob defenses]

1) no DD will hold hate off of RNG using slug
2) any other DD in party with Soboro/Yoichi SAM or KC RNG is straight leeching; you might as well invite a PLD
3) I think RDM and DNC (DNC with 70% haste, mind you) can handle healing RNG

By the way, when did "this DD takes less damage than you" become a valid argument? What happened to fulltime Hasso/'zerk SAMs that never worry about damage taken? Is a 'zerked Hasso SAM really that much sturdier than a RNG/DRG?

[Nightmarelord]

shouldnt you just get both and use them as the situation provides? (yoichi anni amano)

[Trill]

First of all im not a big BG poster, nor am i sumbody who likes and better yet does math.( just a usual E-thug riding with spinners on his chocbo, lol) But i read this post thinking it was gonna give sum useful info on yoichi setups and i think i may have ran across maybe 2 useful post if that(not including the obvious TP setups that can be used).

I am a yoichi owner a fairly new one so im not gonna sit here and give u the my thinking is better then your thinking blah blah speech but i would like to adress some stuff ppl seem to forget

1. As for the Yoichi sam vs anni rng matchup, correct me if im wrong but nobody mentioned the fact that sam has sekk, and meditate. I mean if that doesnt make any difference sorry for bringing it up by in my opinion it does. along with the easy access to self SC contiously and even at 80 with a SC damage bonus that trait that sam gets or wateva. Yes Namas arrow isnt a high damage WS but Namas>Namas> Light is >.>. and on sam i can do that pretty much do that hell of alot.

2. The sam vs amano matchup; i honestly respect amano, but at the same time i think with the same buffs etc they are about the same if not yoichi better(only cuz im loyal to the relic i got lol). But in any case I personally think it takes alot more work in terms of gear and knowledge to make an amano the very best versus a yoichi.

3. I think every relic is pretty much marginal difference from the best normal weapon u can get cept for G-horn /Aegis. You pay 200mil more to be 2% better pretty much
4.The best Relics(i think) are those who are among other relics, just as u can see a fuck ton of difference tanking sumthing with an Aegis/G-horn in the party u can see a fuck of difference when 2 DD relics that compliment each other are in the party, I mean Namas> Kaiten spam is redicoulous on anything or better yet KoTR>Kaiten>Namas is more fun lol

5. Yoichi does work in situations that matters i.e abyssea nms,WoE,Ein,Dynamis?, very low man hnms where u are simply there to be a SC whore(with double march, haste i can pretty much SC every WS set, again not a math wiz but it from common sense and paying attention is more likely that im gonna get at least 2 hits per swing rather than 1, thus alowing for WS>SC spam. --side not- if ur doing aspi with 3 melee ur doing it wrong >.> i mean it prolly can be done but why make it harder then what it has to be, any hnms(if hnms ever matter anymore at thus point) can and should just be blm burned if ur looking for any type of optimal kill. Aside from khim/cerb which i really dont qualify as an hnm since it can be 4-5 manned withought a problem

but all in all this- (im sure u will love it)--http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJLIR...eature=related

[Kalasin]

First of all im not a big BG poster, nor am i sumbody who likes and better yet does math.( just a usual E-thug riding with spinners on his chocbo, lol) But i read this post thinking it was gonna give sum useful info on yoichi setups and i think i may have ran across maybe 2 useful post if that(not including the obvious TP setups that can be used).

I am a yoichi owner a fairly new one so im not gonna sit here and give u the my thinking is better then your thinking blah blah speech but i would like to adress some stuff ppl seem to forget

1. As for the Yoichi sam vs anni rng matchup, correct me if im wrong but nobody mentioned the fact that sam has sekk, and meditate. I mean if that doesnt make any difference sorry for bringing it up by in my opinion it does. along with the easy access to self SC contiously and even at 80 with a SC damage bonus that trait that sam gets or wateva. Yes Namas arrow isnt a high damage WS but Namas>Namas> Light is >.>. and on sam i can do that pretty much do that hell of alot.

2. The sam vs amano matchup; i honestly respect amano, but at the same time i think with the same buffs etc they are about the same if not yoichi better(only cuz im loyal to the relic i got lol). But in any case I personally think it takes alot more work in terms of gear and knowledge to make an amano the very best versus a yoichi.

3. I think every relic is pretty much marginal difference from the best normal weapon u can get cept for G-horn /Aegis. You pay 200mil more to be 2% better pretty much

4.The best Relics(i think) are those who are among other relics, just as u can see a fuck ton of difference tanking sumthing with an Aegis/G-horn in the party u can see a fuck of difference when 2 DD relics that compliment each other are in the party, I mean Namas> Kaiten spam is redicoulous on anything or better yet KoTR>Kaiten>Namas is more fun lol

5. Yoichi does work in situations that matters i.e abyssea nms,WoE,Ein,Dynamis?, very low man hnms where u are simply there to be a SC whore(with double march, haste i can pretty much SC every WS set, again not a math wiz but it from common sense and paying attention is more likely that im gonna get at least 2 hits per swing rather than 1, thus alowing for WS>SC spam. --side not- if ur doing aspi with 3 melee ur doing it wrong >.> i mean it prolly can be done but why make it harder then what it has to be, any hnms(if hnms ever matter anymore at thus point) can and should just be blm burned if ur looking for any type of optimal kill. Aside from khim/cerb which i really dont qualify as an hnm since it can be 4-5 manned withought a problem

but all in all this- (im sure u will love it)--http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJLIR...eature=related

Alright.

1. RNG/SAM has meditate and sekkanoki as well, just 30s more recast on Meditate assuming you have the right merits. Blah blah no Berserk, who cares, /war isn't that nice aside from zerg fights and stuff with AoE moves since you will be tanking alot of the time anyway.

2. No, play with a good Amano and you will think about that again.

3. Yes, but Magian made this 2% difference pretty much only possible with -maybe- Empyreans, and that's gonna be a bit still.

5. Almost every other relic works in those situations as well. And if you low man HNM, why would you bring a SC whore? Low man implies that you need every person attending, or close to that, and there really is no room for BLMs e-peen minus obvious fights such as SW-KA and to some extend Aspid, but not even there it's needed.

Also show me how to 4-man Khimaira in a time frame that doesn't make you fall asleep.
And no, they don't really matter at this point.


/rant over

Edit: typo

[Trill]

Alright.

1. RNG/SAM has meditate and sekkanoki as well, just 30s more recast on Meditate assuming you have the right merits. Blah blah no Berserk, who cares, /war isn't that nice aside from zerg fights and stuff with AoE moves since you will be tanking alot of the time anyway.

2. No, play with a good Amano and you will think about that again.

3. Yes, but Magian made this 2% difference pretty much only possible with -maybe- Empyreans, and that's gonna be a bit still.

5. Almost every other relic works in those situations as well. And if you low man HNM, why would you bring a SC whore? Low man implies that you need every person attending, or close to that, and there really is no room for BLMs e-peen minus obvious fights such as SW-KA and to some extend Aspid, but not even there it's needed.

Also show me how to 4-man Khimaira in a time frame that doesn't make you fall asleep.
And no, they don't really matter at this point.


/rant over

Edit: typo

1. hmm for one /sam only give u 60tp per meditate. and no /war on a rng is meh in my opinion i dunno just not what i prefer but to each his own. and as i was speaking more along of anni rng in which case u wont be tanking or at least u shouldnt >.>. which would make sam pretty useless. i mean yeah rng got barrage but just not seeing that matching up against a sam meditate.

2. i have played with a good amano played with some of the best really. and again the best amano player will be along the same lines as the best yoichi player, i only say yoichi is better cuz of the 200mil i spent on it nothing more.

3. yeah its near impossible but that depends strongly on who u are lol. a JP finished one in a matter of a month or so but his ls caters to him only lol.

4. what i ment by low man is like maybe a 5-6 man faf. one pld,whm,brd,sam,1-2blm and a thf. or even low man tiamat to SC>MB right b4 it flies or in air whichever ppl prefer

5. and i have done plenty of 4-5 man khims and cerbs, of course its not a likely thing to happen since we have an aegis/excal pld,g-horn brd, etc. we not the only ppl who low man it like that either the jp ls does it with about the same amount of ppl and the other na shell does it maybe with about 6. each of us may take 30mins to kill it if that. slow yes but what low man is fast?

6. Hide ya kids, hide ya wife,hide ya husband cuz they rappin everybody out here

[Kalasin]

1. hmm for one /sam only give u 60tp per meditate. and no /war on a rng is meh in my opinion i dunno just not what i prefer but to each his own. and as i was speaking more along of anni rng in which case u wont be tanking or at least u shouldnt >.>. which would make sam pretty useless. i mean yeah rng got barrage but just not seeing that matching up against a sam meditate.

2. i have played with a good amano played with some of the best really. and again the best amano player will be along the same lines as the best yoichi player, i only say yoichi is better cuz of the 200mil i spent on it nothing more.

3. yeah its near impossible but that depends strongly on who u are lol. a JP finished one in a matter of a month or so but his ls caters to him only lol.

4. what i ment by low man is like maybe a 5-6 man faf. one pld,whm,brd,sam,1-2blm and a thf. or even low man tiamat to SC>MB right b4 it flies or in air whichever ppl prefer

5. and i have done plenty of 4-5 man khims and cerbs, of course its not a likely thing to happen since we have an aegis/excal pld,g-horn brd, etc. we not the only ppl who low man it like that either the jp ls does it with about the same amount of ppl and the other na shell does it maybe with about 6. each of us may take 30mins to kill it if that. slow yes but what low man is fast?

6. Hide ya kids, hide ya wife,hide ya husband cuz they rappin everybody out here

1. Read what I said again.

4. Read what I said again.