HDTV Shopping

**Wetticus** · 2010-06-19 12:58

I really didn't see a thread on TVs, but seeing as how you guys know a lot more than me about anything that plugs in...

Finally got a 360 (new model, shit's cash) and need a good TV to go with it. Old tube TV just ain't cutting it.

Now, what I'm looking for...

42"+
1080p
120Hz+ refresh
Under $1000

LCD/LED/Plasma...no real preference. I somewhat know the basics on the good and bad points of each. Mostly I'm just looking for a good starting point on buying a TV. I really know very little to nothing of which brands/models are good and which to avoid.

I've done some looking around, mostly on Newegg, and saw some seemingly great deals but with any big purchase like this I like to get second (and third/fourth/etc) opinions before finalizing anything.

In particular THIS looks really awesome for the price.

Thoughts? Any help would be amazing.

**Darus Grey** · 2010-06-19 13:55

Samsung or Panasonic Plasma, for Panasonic I'd semi-avoid the S2 series, go with an S1 or go up a notch to the G/V 10/25.

No reason to consider anything else until 3d gaming is mainstream and prices come down alittle.

**Wetticus** · 2010-06-19 14:16

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

Samsung or Panasonic Plasma, for Panasonic I'd semi-avoid the S2 series, go with an S1 or go up a notch to the G/V 10/25.

No reason to consider anything else until 3d gaming is mainstream and prices come down alittle.

Curious, what's wrong with the S2?
46" Panasonic G10 for under $1k.
42" Panasonic U2 $719.99

You didn't mention the U2 (I guess that's what model that is called, idk...) specifically but that's super cheap.

P.S. Why don't we have a TV thread?

**Coyohma** · 2010-06-19 14:39

I'm wondering what's wrong with the 3D Mitsubishi HDTVs that work with nVidia's 3D Vision?

e.g., the Mitsubishi WD-65C9. I ask what's wrong, because these TVs are huge.. The one linked here is 65", 1080p, 3D supported with nVidia if XIV ever uses it... Yet all of this is just $1,200?!

I've never had a DLP television from Mitsubishi, this almost seems too good to be true.

**Grey Jorildyn** · 2010-06-19 14:43

Originally Posted by Wetticus

P.S. Why don't we have a TV thread?

**Darus Grey** · 2010-06-19 14:53

Originally Posted by Wetticus

Curious, what's wrong with the S2?
46" Panasonic G10 for under $1k.
42" Panasonic U2 $719.99

You didn't mention the U2 (I guess that's what model that is called, idk...) specifically but that's super cheap.

P.S. Why don't we have a TV thread?

S2s have a issue with "floating blacks", I own one and it doesn't happen often, but until it's fixed with a firmware update I'd avoid them I suppose.

I don't mention the panasonic C and U lines because they lack a game mode, which is a must for a gamer.

Though if you got right down to it, Plasma without game mode still performs better than a LCD with one(lol).

**Wetticus** · 2010-06-19 14:55

Originally Posted by Merona

There are lotsa threads about TVs where purchases are discussed.

Admittedly lazy on the searching. Typed in a few things but really didn't see much. Skimmed over a few pages of thread titles and nothing jumped out at me. I post about once every 3 months so when I'm due for another thread, I'll be more careful about that, lol. My bad!

Originally Posted by Merona

Good luck.

Thanks! The inner Jew in me is forcing me to do way more research than I should, considering I'll be hard pressed to tell the difference once I get it out of the box anyway.

Also curious about that 3D TV Coyohma mentioned. Seems absolutely ridiculously priced unless there's something wrong with it.

**Wetticus** · 2010-06-19 16:01

Any truth to THIS? Makes me a wee bit leery of buying this one, though that is the direction I'm heading. Tons of positive/5 star reviews from everyone then this.

**Appie** · 2010-06-19 17:59

Yes it is true, I got that TV and I think I'm looking at that in about 500 hours or so. Supposedly the black level goes from 0.03 cd/m^2 to 0.06cd/m^2 or so. While it is an increase that you'll notice it isn't so bad as people make it out to be? I don't know, results may vary? It's stupid Panasonic put it in like that, but that's the way it is.

**Coyohma** · 2010-06-19 18:46

Originally Posted by Wetticus

Also curious about that 3D TV Coyohma mentioned. Seems absolutely ridiculously priced unless there's something wrong with it.

After reading from several sources, DLP TVs are cheaper to make, compared to LCD and plasma. The biggest (or only?) reason seems to be:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Unlike their LCD and plasma counterparts, DLP screens do not rely on fluids as their projection medium and are therefore not limited in size by their inherent mirror mechanisms, making them ideal for increasingly larger high-definition theater and venue screens.

That explains the massive TVs at a low price.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Response time in video games may be affected by upscaling lag. While all HDTVs have some lag when upscaling lower resolution input to their native resolution, DLPs are commonly reported to have longer delays. Newer consoles such as the Xbox 360 do not have this problem as long as they are connected with HD-capable cables.

This scared me, but I'm assuming the last sentence there would include PS3 or PC and HD cables.

From what I'm reading, if a DLP, LCD, plasma, whatever kind of HDTV, is recieving something in "HD", the lag is no longer an issue. However, I have to imagine that if a 1080p native resolution is "upscaling" 720p that there is still some lag, but maybe my logic here is fallible.

Does anyone know something more here? It seems some HDTVs have a "Game Mode" to adjust.. To what extent it fixes the issue, or compromises the graphics, I don't know.

Personally, I'm thinking of FFXIV's supposed 720p on PS3.. Fortunately at some point I'll likely switch to PC and its 1080p which will match the TV.. Hopefully this will be when the cutting edge technology allows people to score in the top bracket for the 1080p Benchmark...

**Darus Grey** · 2010-06-19 22:56

From what I'm reading, if a DLP, LCD, plasma, whatever kind of HDTV, is recieving something in "HD", the lag is no longer an issue

Not even remotely true, displaying a signal at the screen's NATIVE resolution reduces lag, but it isn't even close to eliminating it.

Game mode typically turns off most/all post-processing the display does, but not all, samsungs are especially bad for this.

Reason I like panasonics is because they are the fastest consumer TVs on the market for gaming, majority of sets have less than 15ms of lag in game mode, and less than 20 without it.

Samsungs typically have 50-90ms of lag, and their gamemode might as well not exist, lowers it by like 2-5.

**Kryssan** · 2010-06-19 23:20

Originally Posted by Coyohma

I'm wondering what's wrong with the 3D Mitsubishi HDTVs that work with nVidia's 3D Vision?

e.g., the Mitsubishi WD-65C9. I ask what's wrong, because these TVs are huge.. The one linked here is 65", 1080p, 3D supported with nVidia if XIV ever uses it... Yet all of this is just $1,200?!

I've never had a DLP television from Mitsubishi, this almost seems too good to be true.

Nothing "wrong" with them, they're cheaper because DLP demand is a lot lower now than it used to be and they've always been pricewise competitive over the other technologies (at least for initial costs - though most retailers still offer bulb plans that will mitigate the cost of operation even further). They aren't flat or lightweight like LCDs or Plasmas so you won't be mounting them on the wall. You have to buy bulbs for them every so often (I used 8 over a 5 year span with my Toshiba). Some people can see the color bands, I could when I first owned one, but I got used to it (and the newer TVs have cut down a lot on this by using LEDs/Multiple wheels) and I love my DLP. The technology has advanced a lot since it first came out, even though the demand for them has dropped significantly. I actually just bought one of those TVs (the Mitsubishi WD-65C9) to replace my old Toshiba, managed to get it for a steal at 850$. Will update the Desktop thread with pictures once it gets here on the 30th.

**Coyohma** · 2010-06-20 06:44

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

Not even remotely true, displaying a signal at the screen's NATIVE resolution reduces lag, but it isn't even close to eliminating it.

Game mode typically turns off most/all post-processing the display does, but not all, samsungs are especially bad for this.

Reason I like panasonics is because they are the fastest consumer TVs on the market for gaming, majority of sets have less than 15ms of lag in game mode, and less than 20 without it.

Samsungs typically have 50-90ms of lag, and their gamemode might as well not exist, lowers it by like 2-5.

Good to know.. I wonder what you think of Sharp's Vyper Drive?

I have too many questions, but.. Since plasmas appear to have the advantage with lag, I was looking at a plasma from Panasonic, as it should grade out very well there. Of course, you have that fading black issue detailed above (god damnit, there's a compromise every which way you look).. Where would one of these new Mitsubishi DLPs generally rate (concerning lag) compared to the other types?

Also, for future reference - is screen size a factor with lag at all? I guess the answer might vary with the kind of TV..

Originally Posted by Kyrssan

Nothing "wrong" with them, they're cheaper because DLP demand is a lot lower now than it used to be and they've always been pricewise competitive over the other technologies (at least for initial costs - though most retailers still offer bulb plans that will mitigate the cost of operation even further). They aren't flat or lightweight like LCDs or Plasmas so you won't be mounting them on the wall. You have to buy bulbs for them every so often (I used 8 over a 5 year span with my Toshiba). Some people can see the color bands, I could when I first owned one, but I got used to it (and the newer TVs have cut down a lot on this by using LEDs/Multiple wheels) and I love my DLP. The technology has advanced a lot since it first came out, even though the demand for them has dropped significantly. I actually just bought one of those TVs (the Mitsubishi WD-65C9) to replace my old Toshiba, managed to get it for a steal at 850$. Will update the Desktop thread with pictures once it gets here on the 30th.

Yeah, I had been reading on their color wheel "rainbow effect," but I was thinking they've made strides in reducing/eliminating it on newer models.

Nice coincidence that you bought that exact TV, lol. I'll definitely be looking to see what you think of it.

**Darus Grey** · 2010-06-20 08:31

Screen Size isn't a factor, and DLPs are the worst offenders concerning input lag.

Newer models have gotten better, but older ones had insane lag, like 200-300ms in some models, DLPs have an issue in that not only is there the standard HDTV post-processing stuff, but the actual display technology itself is slow, and they have particular issues with scaling.

Since there is essentially no 1080p game content for them to display natively, you're ALWAYS scaling, and that's where DLPs perform the worst compared to other sets.

Can read up about it on AVS, general consensus is that their gaming performance is horrible.

Whether or not a DLP uses a color wheel or an LED array makes a big difference too, don't buy one with a color wheel, period.

**Kryssan** · 2010-06-20 09:24

I've honestly never had this lag issue you speak of. I've been playing games on mine since I bought it in 2005, and its been my computer monitor since then. Perhaps its because the computer doesn't require scaling if you display it in native resolution? Or the quality of the processor used in the TV? Not sure, but I've not experienced this lag issue - or if I did, it never affected my gaming, and I've always used the highest end rigs I could build tweaked for maximum performance and quality. I have two LCD TVs and a computer monitor additionally that I use as well, so I do have something that I can compare against side by side at home. I'm not saying that DLP is perfect, but I do not have anything against mine. It does everything I ask of it - the only issue I really had with it, and this is more of a driver problem than anything, was when I first bought it. My TV was not designed to be hooked up to a computer like they are these days, and for those of you that know about TVs, they tend to overscan the input image. For a computer this results in a loss of your desktop edges (can't see them). Nowadays with HDMI being a standard on most high end video cards and media cards, the drivers are more featured to give you control over the scaling rather than having to cycle through the TV's built in ones.

What I do notice in comparison between LCD and DLP in my house is that there is a color difference between LCD and DLP (without any adjustments to either) and like I said for the first month or so I noticed color banding but I don't see it anymore, guess my mind filtered it out eventually. Viewing angle is also a detriment on DLP, but sitting as I do in my recliner the appropriate distance away from the TV I have no issues with angles. The shape of the room also prevents you from seeing the TV from a wide angle anyway (room is rectangular with the TV on one of the shorter walls).

The color difference is easily adjustable though, just have to play with settings (both on the TV and the computer display panels) to get it looking right. I do not own a plasma so I can't speak for them. DLPs are also not instant on or off, they take a few seconds to turn on and most of them have a feature to keep them running after you turn them off (screen blank/sound out - fans continue to run) in order to remove heat buildup - also as a side issue to assist in turning the TV on quicker if you turn it off then back on within a few minutes.

In short, it does what I want it to at a nice quality and an even better price. And what I use it for is watching movies streamed from server to PC and playing games on my gaming machine. They're damn near impossible to find in stores nowadays though, unless you're just incredibly lucky or live near a large retail outlet.

**Shojin** · 2010-06-20 09:32

Just thought I'd post this for anyone that was interested in that 65 inch mitsubishi...

http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/3569...-hdtv-3d-ready

73 inch version of that model is $1200 too, down from $1700. Damn. Weights almost 100 lbs though if that is an issue for you.

**Darus Grey** · 2010-06-20 10:32

Originally Posted by Kryssan

I've honestly never had this lag issue you speak of. I've been playing games on mine since I bought it in 2005, and its been my computer monitor since then. Perhaps its because the computer doesn't require scaling if you display it in native resolution? Or the quality of the processor used in the TV? Not sure, but I've not experienced this lag issue - or if I did, it never affected my gaming, and I've always used the highest end rigs I could build tweaked for maximum performance and quality. I have two LCD TVs and a computer monitor additionally that I use as well, so I do have something that I can compare against side by side at home. I'm not saying that DLP is perfect, but I do not have anything against mine. It does everything I ask of it - the only issue I really had with it, and this is more of a driver problem than anything, was when I first bought it. My TV was not designed to be hooked up to a computer like they are these days, and for those of you that know about TVs, they tend to overscan the input image. For a computer this results in a loss of your desktop edges (can't see them). Nowadays with HDMI being a standard on most high end video cards and media cards, the drivers are more featured to give you control over the scaling rather than having to cycle through the TV's built in ones.

What I do notice in comparison between LCD and DLP in my house is that there is a color difference between LCD and DLP (without any adjustments to either) and like I said for the first month or so I noticed color banding but I don't see it anymore, guess my mind filtered it out eventually. Viewing angle is also a detriment on DLP, but sitting as I do in my recliner the appropriate distance away from the TV I have no issues with angles. The shape of the room also prevents you from seeing the TV from a wide angle anyway (room is rectangular with the TV on one of the shorter walls).

The color difference is easily adjustable though, just have to play with settings (both on the TV and the computer display panels) to get it looking right. I do not own a plasma so I can't speak for them. DLPs are also not instant on or off, they take a few seconds to turn on and most of them have a feature to keep them running after you turn them off (screen blank/sound out - fans continue to run) in order to remove heat buildup - also as a side issue to assist in turning the TV on quicker if you turn it off then back on within a few minutes.

In short, it does what I want it to at a nice quality and an even better price. And what I use it for is watching movies streamed from server to PC and playing games on my gaming machine. They're damn near impossible to find in stores nowadays though, unless you're just incredibly lucky or live near a large retail outlet.

It's because the VGA/DVI/HDMI slot on computers specifically for a PC use a different daughterboard then the rest of the TV, one that has no display processing whatsoever. Not an issue with your TV since you said it lacks one, but displaying at it's native res via PC does help alleviate the problem.

That said...it's probably there and you just don't notice it. If you're playing RPGs or something slow you'll never notice input lag.

Play a fighting game, a racing sim, or even rockband, and trust me, you'll notice it...or like most people, you'll just think you suck and never realize it's the display.

You can look for objective testing on display lag at sites like AVS and others...DLPs have issues.

**Kryssan** · 2010-06-20 13:42

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

Play a fighting game, a racing sim, or even rockband, and trust me, you'll notice it...or like most people, you'll just think you suck and never realize it's the display.

You can look for objective testing on display lag at sites like AVS and others...DLPs have issues.

So where is my slowdown in X, Descent, Tachyon, Borderlands, etc? I'll give you that I typically play strategy and RPG games, but I definitely have plenty of simulations/actions and I've done online play without issue. I'd say its probably due to the computer doing all the work though - I haven't tried hooking up a gaming platform to my old Toshiba.

I'm not arguing with you that DLP doesn't have issues, they have their own advantages and disadvantages just like everything else. A quality brand will make a substantive difference. I've done searches on AVS just to see what I could dig up, and there are several posts that bring up the WD-65C9 which was mentioned earlier in the thread that state it has little discernible lag. Here's a link to an AVS thread that gives a lot of data about the Mitsubishi lineup. There are some other threads from 2004/05 that discuss my type of Toshiba that also say they had little lag. When AVS discusses lag with DLP, the preceding term is almost always Samsung.

**Wetticus** · 2010-06-20 14:07

Originally Posted by Darus Grey

I don't mention the panasonic C and U lines because they lack a game mode, which is a must for a gamer.

You've got me pretty well sold on having a game mode, but Newegg claims this U2 set has one. Also that price is pretty tasty.

Leaning towards that. I'd like to get it ordered ASAP so I can stop playing on my poopy tube TV. To my understanding this model SHOULDN'T have a problem with the blacks fading over time like the older Panasonics. Only downside to this model judging from the comments is the levels need some serious adjusting, but I'm confident I can handle that. Again, the Jew in me is trying to get the best bang for my buck.

So does this in fact have a game mode? Is there a problem with the blacks fading on this model or was it just the older ones? Any other suggestions on a good buy before I pony up $700?

Edit: Did some checking on Panasonic's site and they say it has game mode too. Answers that question...
Edit edit: There's one at the Best Buy like 90 miles away...so tempted to take a road trip after work, lol.

**Darus Grey** · 2010-06-20 16:24

If the U2 series has a game mode included now, then I would put that in my recommendations as well, the U1 didn't, however the U series is not a full 1080p TV.

You can compare/contrast features on their own website.

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelComparisonResults?storeId=15001&catalogId=13 401&catGroupId=103502&surfCategory=All%20VIERA%26% 23174%3B%20Flat-Panel%20HDTVs&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000 000000000005702&items=403578|392526|390517|392538| 392531|

Originally Posted by Kryssan

So where is my slowdown in X, Descent, Tachyon, Borderlands, etc? I'll give you that I typically play strategy and RPG games, but I definitely have plenty of simulations/actions and I've done online play without issue. I'd say its probably due to the computer doing all the work though - I haven't tried hooking up a gaming platform to my old Toshiba.

I'm not arguing with you that DLP doesn't have issues, they have their own advantages and disadvantages just like everything else. A quality brand will make a substantive difference. I've done searches on AVS just to see what I could dig up, and there are several posts that bring up the WD-65C9 which was mentioned earlier in the thread that state it has little discernible lag. Here's a link to an AVS thread that gives a lot of data about the Mitsubishi lineup. There are some other threads from 2004/05 that discuss my type of Toshiba that also say they had little lag. When AVS discusses lag with DLP, the preceding term is almost always Samsung.

I actually don't see any actual testing on that particular model, just "it's not an issue"...which is meaningless honestly, there's people who will tell you that their samsungs don't have issues... which is why you test them scientifically for actual data, I don't have one obviously or I would.

My point being, on average, DLPs have had issues across all brands, Mitsubishis may be better(who knows), but I don't see any factual data to support that.

If you have one why not test it yourself and let us know? Granted camera tests are not 100% accurate because they have 10-20ms leeway either way due to shutter speed on transitions, but can certainly show if you're off in 40-100+ms land.
All you do is take a computer, run the display out to a CRT TV and/or CRT monitor, and the TV at same time, and then run a clock that measures milli/micro second intervals and take photos on the fastest setting your camera supports to see the difference between the CRT and the HDTV.

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